It seems close but yet so far

[CuriousBeing]

Thanks for clarifying.

My wonder is if I manage to stay in that stillness and look around for a me without falling into thinking, can that lead to the realization or is it better to just sit with your questions a few times a day for minutes at a time?

[CuriousBeing]

I find that by asking "who is thinking" and "who is seeing" and just being in that moment stops my thinking. I can keep it going when frustration arises by asking "who is feeling". This feels nice and peaceful and if that's what is needed to make realization more likely that I can abide in that. What do you think?

[Ronaldo]

I am giving you questions that are meant to help you with the process, if you want to do your own questions, that's fine too.
But why not answer the ones I give you?

You have expectations and fears that are in the way. What you anticipate “it” will be is influenced by what you want it to be, because there is a “me” that wants to be part of it. It does seem like you ask me about it, I give you advice and you keep ignoring what I suggest, no?

Could you please honestly list all your fears about what awakening might mean?
What are your true expectations?

[CuriousBeing]

I suppose you're right. I'll stick to following your pointing and trusting you as my guide, I was only wondering if maybe I'm seeing what you're pointing me towards and if that's all that's required. But I'll stick to your pointing.

Does the sensation stand on its own or it needs a body to be formed in thought first?

The sensations requires no thought, thought provides context and tries to explain. Just looking shows only sensations.

Where is the urgency coming from?

I want to see the truth and let go of the heavy self but I suppose there is no rush in this. Enjoy the process. The urgency drops when I simply look because there is no thing to rush.

Thanks for your patience, Ron. I'll continue taking each of your pointings seriously and trust that I'm doing it right.

[Ronaldo]

Thank you, there were two additional questions:
Could you please honestly list all your fears about what awakening might mean?
What are your true expectations?

I simply want to address any such fears or expectations.
Are there any?

[CuriousBeing]

Could you please honestly list all your fears about what awakening might mean?

I might fear changing very much and my partner losing interest in me because she might not want to awaken but I don't believe that will happen because I'm here and there is no self. I might also fear that awakening won't lead to a satisfied life, I feel sadness occasionally that feels hopeless and I believe it's a calling but what if it isn't?

What are your true expectations?

I don't know what to expect because no one seems to be able to put it into words. I'm excited to see reality and start living a life without identification with a story and worry about past and future. I want to stop defending a false self. I have this yearning to wake up. I've been having bouts of sadness that come about without explanation since I started this journey and I believe it to be a calling to wake up and see. I want to finally see the truth so I can help others do the same starting with those closest to me if they're interested.

[Ronaldo]

OK, thank you. Everyone going through this process has both fears and expectations, there is no judgment here, only trying to help you address both of these because they can stand in the way.

I might fear changing very much and my partner losing interest in me because she might not want to awaken but I don't believe that will happen because I'm here and there is no self. I might also fear that awakening won't lead to a satisfied life, I feel sadness occasionally that feels hopeless and I believe it's a calling but what if it isn't?

The bottom line is that this seeing is a positive twist to life, if anything, it will make you a better partner, I don't want to add more expectations to your list by explaining this, but just consider not making a big fuss over things that don't go your way? Perhaps being a tad less of a victim? And yes, most of the so called personality does not change, seeing can be so subtle that almost nothing changes to an outsider, hardly to you. Your partner doesn't need to go through the same process, it's a personal thing and wishing for someone else to change is an ego (self) driven desire and also a futile quest, see that? You focus on Simon.

Turning into some sort of vegetable that sits on the coach and doesn't care about anything is another common myth or misunderstanding. To become that means that you've adopted a new self story of one who doesn't care about anything because there is no self. You will continue to feel every emotion, sensation, feelings will rise and fall. You will continue to prefer that tasteless tea, be excited about having sex or whatever. Again, this is already how things are right now, only Simon is seen as a fictional character that does not run life, but a story taking place as part of this whole life.

Now to the sadness you feel. It may again be coming from an assumption that you'll lose that non existing part that makes Simon Simon. What is that Simon? There is a body that does what it does, and thoughts appear with a tag "me" and they will continue to come! There is just a seeing what is going on, a drop of a belief. We're not trying to kill the story of Simon (that is not possible), we are merely seeing the story, life goes on!

I hope this all makes sense and can help you see that the fears are all just more story in the story, none of this is actually happening outside imagination.

[CuriousBeing]

Thank you for clarifying that. I'm sure it'll help me with any doubts that arise about it. What pointers shall I look at now? Shall I keep looking for a Simon?

[CuriousBeing]

Lot of mind activity today and strong fear on the verge of a panic attack. Any tips for this? Or shall I simply watch it?

Thanks,
Simon

[Ronaldo]

OK Simon, just take it easy, nothing is going to expire... some resistance is ok, some frustration is ok, when you feel like there is a panic attach coming, smile! I'm not kidding, just smile, because who could be panicking? You simply in a thought swirl.
I would suggest when you're feeling better, to go back and do some of the exercises looking at thought, and at the body.
Let me know how it goes.

[CuriousBeing]

So look at who's thinking and who's feeling? By asking "where's the thinker?" and what not?

I'd appreciate some more guidance if you can as I feel a bit confused now, not sure where to look and where to focus.

[Ronaldo]

Hi Simon,
It really feels like you're not paying attention to what I write to you, you keep asking the same questions (what questions to ask), I keep giving the same answer (answer the questions I ask)... What's not clear about going back, reading my previous exercise of observing thoughts and the body, and simply doing it again? Please start at page one, and actually look at each question I gave you, actually do each exercise, no rushing, no focusing on the potential result but only on what is happening NOW, HERE. Don't abort the looking because something feels funny in your body and a thought says "ah, maybe this is it!", drop that thought and get back to what is happening in reality - not in the thought.

It's your inquiry, I'm giving you pointers but don't expect me to do the work, you need to have the experience over and over. Put your heart in it, if you just think about the questions and write the first thought answer, it's not going anywhere. Spend time with each question, many times, reveal the process that is taking place when you look at any question.

Let me hear from you when you've gone through all previous posts and done it again, I gave you some examples of how to look, what to notice, what to ignore.

If the weather is nice, go take a walk and look around you, watch how thoughts keep putting you in the center of everything, look at a tree and really look, touch it, ask, is it outside of me? Is everything happening together or is every object standing alone independent?

Best
Ron

[CuriousBeing]

Thanks Ron. I'll go through our conversations and questions and give them another shot. Shall I check back in tomorrow?

[Ronaldo]

Great, please be thorough, don't rush.
Write down a log of any points you find confusing or unclear and we'll go deeper if they exist.
Write back Sunday evening or later (Monday?) - when you're done, a real investigation should take you a couple of days.
thank you!
take care
Ron

[CuriousBeing]

Hey Ron. I hope I didn't make you doubt my dedication to looking because I've been giving it my best. Spending at least 4-5 hours dedicated to the pointers. I went through all of your pointers making sure to dedicate at least 3 minutes on most and this is what came about. I noticed at one pointer a thought came up "But I still feel identified to Simon" and I was typing then realized "wait who is identifying?" That seemed to snap me out of that so maybe I should follow it? Hopefully you'll spot some hidden belief in this response and can help guide me some more!

please provide one or more items that you noticed on each of these items.

Sight: Wall, Monitor, Speaker
Hearing: Printer printing, birds, people talking
sensations: butt on bed, fingers on phone
smells: coffee
taste: coffee
thoughts: "this isn't going to work", "you're not going to get this", "we're doing it all and putting hours in but nothing has happened", "you're not ready"

Can you find anything else? Anything at all that isn't on the list?

No. Sights, sounds, sensations, taste, smells and thoughts labeling.

Try to look at an object and let the tags drop away, can you?

Yes. Colour and shape is seen and thoughts labeling objects which come and go.

What makes you know where the body ends and the bed starts?

Thought content labeling the sensations but clear looking shows only sensations. No butt or bed.

How do you know that a sensation is coming from outside the body (say you're standing barefoot on a hot pavement)?

Thoughts label sensations as coming from cold pilloe against back but in DE there is only sensation seen.

Is sadness a sensation? Please explain.

Sadness is a thought label for a sensation. "I" feel a sensation "in the throat" which feels bubbly and frantic. Mind labels it as "anxiety" and "fear" and thoughts about why there is the sensation come about.

Isn't "external sensation" a tag too?

External sensation is a tag yes.
Put your hand on the table and close your eyes.

What is actually experienced? Can you tell what is hand and what is table?

Thought tries to label sensations as hand and bed but in DE there are only the sensations and thoughts. The thoughts are seen as a poor representation of the real thing trying to define the bounds of "hand"/"me" and external object "bed".

Can you tell what the table is made of?

Thought content can but DE can't. It's only sensation.

What is the pretend smell made of? (what is it?)

It's a thought and like other thoughts about reality it's a poor representation.

What is the pretend taste made of?

It's a thought.

Describe the real smell and taste

Much stronger and real. Effortlessly experienced. Sweet.

Describe the real texture

Crunchy and juicy.

When you compare the two experiences, one composed of thoughts and imaginations about eating this apple, to eating the apple - what are your conclusions?

Thought content is a poor representation of reality.

Could the thought fruit satisfy you?

It cannot.

Is it super clear why a though isn't a real experience?

Yes, thoughts take us away from reality and do a poor job of recreating it.

Since the illusion is generated by thoughts, can you see why we cannot rely on thoughts to expose the illusion?

Yes. Thoughts very easily lead us to identify and believe them. They quickly pull my attention from the present moment and reality. The body is very affected by thought. If I have a thought of someone close to me dying a sensation labeled as sadness arises and tears come to the eyes. Thoughts are real but their content is not but the body doesn't know that.

Do you see anything but color and thoughts making them into things?

Colour, form and thoughts labeling what is seen.

Does a sensation come with explanation of what that is? Or is that provided by thought?

The explanation comes as a thought separate from the sensation.

If the sensation is no longer bad or good, it's also no longer tagged as sadness, is it?

Sadness, bad and good are all tags provided by thought. They do not exist. Thought and sensation do but not thought content.

So sadness isn't a sensation but an emotion or feeling. It's a thought and a sensation, often feeding more thoughts and sensations. Agree?

Yes. "Anxiety" leads to more thoughts about "being a failure" and "you're not enough".

The sensation is there! The thought turns a detached abstract raw sensation into a hand and a table.
Do you see that?

It is seen clearly as only sensation.

Can you predict your next thought?

No, thoughts just appear. A thought "I had the intention to think of a dog" comes up immediately after a thought of "dog" making it seem like "intention" and control exist.

How do you make a thought appear (or, how do you give birth to a thought)?

They just appear.

where are the thoughts coming from, and where are they going to?

I don't know. They appear and disappear.

Could you have only pleasant thoughts for a couple of minutes?

No, negative thoughts come in eventually.

Can you stop having thoughts?

No I cannot. Thoughts may lessen when presented with certain questions but they come back eventually.
Is it possible to prevent a thought from appearing?
No.

Can you stop a thought in the middle?

It appears like a "train of thought" can be stopped but that's only another thought. Thoughts come and they go then more thoughts come claiming "I stopped thoughts"

Is there a place to be found where thoughts are selected and chosen?

No such place can be found in DE.

How does it feel to realize that you have zero control over thoughts?

It feels liberating but then I realise that that's another thought. Thoughts are seen as out of any control but without effort "I" am pulled back into the stories.

Actually put a glass of water and a glass of juice and do the experiment, which is chose? thinking about it is pointless.
What made the choice?

I don't know. Thoughts come up taking ownership for the choice but nothing can be found in DE.

Who made the choice?

In DE it appears as nobody doing the choice. The choice happens.

Do you always do what the thought says? (think about the last time you went to the gym or similar thing you should do but don't)

Thoughts do not control action. Thoughts come up taking ownership for action.

Let's try this:
1. Place both hands on a table in front of you, palms down.
2. When you have done that, rest for a moment and then raise one hand in the air but not the other.

Don't go to thoughts, examine your experience. Do this as many times as you like, and each time inquire:

What is it exactly that is choosing which hand to raise?

Nothing in DE. Only thoughts taking ownership.

Can you find a self/me or anything that is doing the choosing?

No there is only doing.

Is there a me/I controlling and moving the hand?

No. Thoughts say there is but the "me" is just a thought.
Is there a ‘I’ controlling which hand to raise?
No.

Is there a controller? Where?

The controller exists only in thought.

How is the decision made?

It just happens. I don't know how.

Is the decision made by an I/self?

No. That's a thought.

Is there a decision maker? Where?

Decisions happen and thoughts say "I did that" but only after the action. A sensation is felt and a thought "the wind is cold I should move into the sun" and then movement into the sun. There's no direct link between thought and action. A thought "I'm going to jump" doesn't lead to jumping. But the action leads to a thought taking ownership.

What do you do in order to be?

I don't need to do anything to be.

What do you do in order to see?

Seeing happens. The eyes close and seeing still occurs, colours still occur.

What do you do in order to hear?

Hearing happens. Covering the ears there is still sounds being heard.

What do you do in order to feel?

Feeling happens. Sensations arise and fall away.

What do you do in order to taste and smell?

Taste and smell although faint just happen.

What do you do for thoughts to be?

Thoughts come and go. I don't do anything.

What do you do in order for the body to be?

The body is. Movement happens. Breathing happens.

We've talked about this somewhere on page 1, I asked you to deconstruct what that sense of being is made of.
Either it's something in the 5 senses + thoughts, or it's a new type of sensation, what is it?

It is sensation with a thought labeling it as "being".

Please sit down again and watch carefully:
How is attention or focus moves between sights, sensations, sounds, thoughts and sometimes smells and tastes?

It just does. Attention moves. An interesting thought may pull attention to look at it but there's no controller.

Are you controlling the shifting of attention?

No it just happens.

Find something in your field of view,
(a) think about looking at it but don't.
(b) think about looking and look.
(c) just look
Do you actually find any difference?

Thoughts do not shift attention. Attention just shifts and thoughts label and interpret.

Isn't the thought just an added story layer?

Yes it is just a story.

Now, try finding smells and tastes, are you doing anything to sense them if they exist?

They either are here or not. "I" cannot find smells or tastes.

How are you feeling with the inquiry so far?

There is a sense of calm and thoughts have lessened. Seeing is seen, sounds are being heard, thoughts arise and label. Nothing else remains.

Is there any fear arising? Frustration?

Sensations coming and going but not fear or frustration. Thoughts questioning the method and doubting the result but they are just thoughts. A story.

What do you find confusing?

I see thought content as not real and wonder why this isn't enough. Then I realise that's just another thought disguising itself. Thinking won't get me there so the confusion lies still in thought pulling me away from what is.

Any change?

Calmer and more detached. Seeing all this yet without any realization feels uncomfortable. I see it as just another thought. I want to write I feel no different but this also is seen as a thought. There is no me so how could "I" feel any different?

What do you think will happen when the no-self is realized?

There is nothing to happen. There is no self and nothing will change. The belief of the story that there is a "me" in charge of life.

How do you think life will change?

There will be less judgement and identification with the mind.

What will be lost? What will be gained?

Nothing will be lost. A belief that the story is who we are is simply dropped.

When you ask a question that cannot be answered, what happens?

Thoughts stop for a while.

Can you clearly see that there is no control over thoughts?

Yes. Thoughts come and go but they still pull me in and cause me to get lost in them.

No control over actions (often thought claiming, but there is no control over thought anyway)

Actions are experienced then thoughts come and interpret and assign ownership.

Can you clearly see that attention is shifting and is never something you control?

Yes attention shifts and thoughts come afterwards.

Is there any doubt that you are not the thinker, doer, feeler, see-er?

Thoughts arise and claim ownership. Nothing is here to see, feel, hear or think. Nothing can be found in DE.

Where is Simon? How is Simon any different than Harry Potter?

Simon is a story. A thought which points to more thought.

What is identifying?

Nothing can be identifying because nothing is here.

Sit with it, let the thoughts bounce over, what can be identifying with thoughts?

There is nothing that can identify.

A thought is not an entity, it cannot identify or think, it's only an imagined experience.
Is there identification with smells or sounds?

No.

Does the thought mean anything if there's no zooming into the thought content?

It's just a thought that comes and goes.

What is left if the thought content is ignored?

I don't know.

But where is that person, when there is no story about the person?

There is no person. Person is a thought which points to a story.

Look at the sensations again, is there a body feeling sensations? Or sensations felt are labeled "my body"?

Sensations are here and so are labels about them. "Body" is a label for sensations.

Is body a physical thing or physical thing is another concept, pointing to sensations that are just there?

Body is a label pointing to the entity seen in DE.

Feel the sensation of weight on the chair.
do you actually need the label "butt", "chair" to have the experience we call "butt on chair"?

No. The labels get in the way of experiencing reality which is much stronger.

What do these labels add?

Nothing. Just more thoughts and stories.

Sensations are here. Do they need to be labelled body in order to be present?

No. Body is a thought pointing to something in DE. But body does not exist. Sensations exist and are here.

What does the label "body" add?

A piece to a story.

Check - are you inside the body? Are you outside the body? Do you own the body?

There is no one to be inside or outside the body. It's all thought trying to make sense of reality. What is outside? What is inside? Thought trying to understand something it cannot.

Is a body even needed to feel sensations?

No. Body is a construct, a thought pointing to more thoughts. Looking there is colour and shape which is labeled as "my leg" and "my pants". All thoughts. All extra.

Does the sensation stand on its own or it needs a body to be formed in thought first?

Sensation is and thoughts get involved trying to interpret and make sense of them.

Where is the urgency coming from? There is no prize to win, it's not you who will wake up from the illusion because there is no you thinking. Thought just happens, just is, to nobody there.

The urgency is a thought. A sensation and a thought. Nobody is here to be urgent.