Deepening awakening

[Veronique]

Dear Ron,

This morning I read Ilona book she says : Seing that there is no one here doing, thinking, living a life of a separate entity does not automatically ends all resistance. It is what seems to be happening to me. I cannot find anyone in this body mind organism and still resistance happens.
I took two days to look at your questions and will go on exploring after, it is very good for me to stop and ask these questions again and again.

Can thoughts believe? That would make them a sort of entity with a tiny brain and 4 little legs :)

Of course not. Thoughts just appear, they have no real substance, like a dream…

Who is believing?

Again it is just happening, no one is there

What does it mean to believe?
Find out, take the time and look many times, use the unpleasant thoughts to investigate, because when you have an unpleasant thought there is a belief hiding there.

The thought “I am not good enough” (my favorit ;)) come up, sensation come up almost together. For me belief = thoughts and sensations appearing together or one after the other related to an old wound / story.

To me appearance of body parts moving clearly shows that there is nobody in there, only thoughts around body movement can confuse that with a "me". Watch the body moving as often as awareness of the body moving comes up, and watch it.

I went to get wood for the fire, walking down and preparing the wood I see the body moving and cannot find anyone in there.
Same with dancing, dancing is just happening, looking in the mirror I see no one in these eyes, in this body.
Typing on the computer is the same, no one there to type. Cannot explain. It seems as if there is someone but it is like a ghost.

What are unpleasant sensations? Are you talking about all sort of physical pains, or emotions?
Next time, whether it is pain or an emotions, try to look at that sensation and let it be there without tags.

Ok when I let sensations to be as they are without tags, they appear, live for a while and go back to nothing, like thoughts, emotions… Yesterday I had a fight with my friend and stayed a long time with the sensations, did not go in the story. I fell asleep. They are just sensations nothing more.

The reason you are not seeing clearly is that you're pulled into thoughts and not realizing that you are there.

I know that one very well!!! I still tell myself that there is more to be seen…. That’s the trap, another thought.
Yesterday I saw very clearly that the experience and seeing that experience are one and the same.

- how many actions are done without any thought? Where are your hands now? Did you decide to put them there?

All the time things are happening without any thought. I see that thoughts are mostly commenting or trying to prevent what could happen. I see something in me still wanting to understand the purpose of thoughts! But I see also there is no purpose in nothing.

- notice how often the thought comes after the action (it's subtle)

I can see clearly it comes sometimes a long time after an action telling me what to do to avoid doing the same thing again, trying to protect me. And also, I can see thoughts are just commenting.

- if thought causes action, find that link between them, really look for it!

I did not find that now.

- looks at this short video of Spira, it's more about choice but at the end it also talks about action https://youtu.be/V560v1eQJzA?t=60

Amazing it showed me something I was not aware of. Thank you!!

you are believing thoughts to be experience

What do you mean by this? Thoughts to be real? As if they have an impact on the experience?

Have a lovely week-end!
Véronique

[Ronaldo]

Dear Véronique,

Yes, I think I've pointed this out a few times, seeing through the self illusion does not equate ending resistance and suffering. But I'm not clear if your resistance is not also coming from frustration, like doubting, seeking, looking for purpose? These should all drop or subside if you've seen clearly.

The thought “I am not good enough” (my favorit ;)) come up, sensation come up almost together. For me belief = thoughts and sensations appearing together or one after the other related to an old wound / story.

Yes, when the thought comes up you can look. But do you sometimes just feel crappy without an apparent reason? You go about your day, feeling crappy, ignoring it, hoping it goes away?
There is a call to investigate, what's hiding that seems like nothing, can't be found and yet, there is a dread, discontent, sadness? Could it be that there are thoughts that are so deep that they just seem like reality and get away unnoticed?
Could it be that a belief is like zooming in into a thought content, and if goes unsuspected is not recognized as a thought at all... See if you can find anything when you feel like that.

dancing, dancing is just happening

Yes! Dancing is just like you describe, clearly no thoughts and no control, body moves like a puppet on a string.

Let's take some time and talk about time...
How is time experienced?
What is past and future?
Is there proof that you had dinner last night?
Is there any experiential proof whatsoever that the past has ever happened?

When you're having a thought about the past, when does that thought take place?
How do you know it's about something in the past?
How do you know that a thought is about the future?

with love
Ron

[Veronique]

Dear Ron,

Thank you again for your questions and for your answers to mine.

But I'm not clear if your resistance is not also coming from frustration, like doubting, seeking, looking for purpose? These should all drop or subside if you've seen clearly.

I just did a deep looking session with Ilona, at the moment I cannot find anything to look for. No more looking… If looking for something comes up again, I will look at that 

Yes, when the thought comes up you can look. But do you sometimes just feel crappy without an apparent reason? You go about your day, feeling crappy, ignoring it, hoping it goes away?
There is a call to investigate, what's hiding that seems like nothing, can't be found and yet, there is a dread, discontent, sadness? Could it be that there are thoughts that are so deep that they just seem like reality and get away unnoticed?
Could it be that a belief is like zooming in into a thought content, and if goes unsuspected is not recognized as a thought at all... See if you can find anything when you feel like that.

The thoughts “I am a fake, I am not ok, I hate myself…” were present unnoticed. I realized that this morning after reading your message. A deep sadness was there, the belief I am never going to make it appeared. Looking at it and writing to you about it gave much peace and clarity. I saw it is not personal, just happening. During the deep looking session we looked into that too and I saw where it comes from. At the moment it is quiet.

How is time experienced?

Time does not exist, there is only now, but not a now between past and future, now is all there is past present and future.

What is past and future?

Very difficult to put it in words, past and future don’t exist, they are only thoughts, all there is is now. It is not possible to be anywhere else than now.

Is there proof that you had dinner last night?

Dishes in the dishwasher?? :) which kind of proof you need? Thoughts about the dinner is all that is left. I cannot prove it.

Is there any experiential proof whatsoever that the past has ever happened?

The past has never happened, now is all there is! All the time. Thoughts about the past and future can appear now this is all that is possible.

When you're having a thought about the past, when does that thought take place?

Now

How do you know it's about something in the past?

Nothing happened in the past, when it happened it was now. Thoughts about an event that happened can appear now.

How do you know that a thought is about the future?

Imagining something to come, projecting, something that has not happened yet. And if this happens it will happen now also.

Have a beautiful Sunday!
Véronique

[Ronaldo]

Dear Véronique,

The thoughts “I am a fake, I am not ok, I hate myself…” were present unnoticed. I realized that this morning after reading your message. A deep sadness was there, the belief I am never going to make it appeared. Looking at it and writing to you about it gave much peace and clarity. I saw it is not personal, just happening. During the deep looking session we looked into that too and I saw where it comes from. At the moment it is quiet.

Good find.
If it comes up again, look who hates themselves?
Are there really two of you, (1) the judging thought entity, and (2) the real you?
Who is the owner of that thought that says "I hate myself"
Who is the real you?
Don't just brush it off with "there's nobody", this is the center of your confusion, a blind spot for you to dig in.


"I'm fake", it's kind of true isn't it? We wear different personas during the day, when interacting with the boss, the colleague, the friend, the cat/dog, the cashier at the supermarket, a child on the street and a bagger, and even alone we're wearing a costume that is not ours, none of it was a choice we made. Which one is you?
Well, none!
Slowly you may shed the excess layers. When you stop reflecting your view of yourself on others, when you stop seeking approval and love, when you realize experimentally that it's your thoughts cause you all the suffering and you stop identifying.
A big part of feeling fake is how we deceive ourselves, that's a very strange sentence but it simply means that you adopts acting up a thought that you no longer believe in, there is a deep painful dissonance there.

How do you know it's about something in the past?

Nothing happened in the past, when it happened it was now. Thoughts about an event that happened can appear now.

Yes, it's always now, but you missed the question - what about the past/future thought tells you it's about the past or the future? Regardless if it's true or false, what makes the now thought to be about the past/future?

Let me know how this goes,

Enjoy your Sunday as well!
Ron

[Veronique]

Dear Ron,

If it comes up again, look who hates themselves?
Are there really two of you, (1) the judging thought entity, and (2) the real you?
Who is the owner of that thought that says "I hate myself"
Who is the real you?
Don't just brush it off with "there's nobody", this is the center of your confusion, a blind spot for you to dig in.

I read these few sentences just after waking up, it is nice to see how you are trying to show me something not that easy for me to see :). Here is what came up. First, the thought I don't get it again, I am a failure and just after a sentence Ilona told me : look at life not for life. So I started looking what is going on. I saw that this is happening a lot. I am always checking what others might think about me. Then a situation where I thought my action was not quite right came to my mind. And I stayed in bed looking at the sensations, there was also a big "no" with resistance to the sensations, mostly in the solar plexus, first with intention that it passes, I saw that and stayed with what was there just as it is. Looking at it with no intention. And the sensations were becoming more soft. I think this is the clue. It makes me touch a feeling of helplessness, and again I just am with the sensations (in the plexus) it makes me feel seing it as it is and it opens.

What I understand when you say don't brush it off with "there's nobody" is that I use that to avoid sensations.
And again, sorry..., there is no owner, and not two, it is all life, no separation. The thoughts come by itself and it is probably linked to a trauma of my father as a little boy, this is what I saw. I gave him love and care.

A big part of feeling fake is how we deceive ourselves, that's a very strange sentence but it simply means that you adopts acting up a thought that you no longer believe in, there is a deep painful dissonance there.

I see that Thank you, and what is more clear to me this morning, is that I adjust to others all the time because I don't want to feel the sensations that might comes up in me if they don't agree with me or don't love me. With you also I try to make everything right to get your approval 😏
Just had the thought what if nobody approves of me... straight a big sadness came up, with a sensation in the chest. I let it go through me and it is again peaceful with sadness on the background realizing how much I have been adjusting all my life, I already saw it but it is another peel of the oignon going away, it makes me want to really spend time with me and be gentle.
Funny this all looks more like therapy than non duality to me but it helps me to let myself just be what I am. Brings me back to this place where there is nothing to look for.

Yes, it's always now, but you missed the question - what about the past/future thought tells you it's about the past or the future? Regardless if it's true or false, what makes the now thought to be about the past/future?

The thought about the past are related to something that is accomplished, and the thought about the future are related to something that is planned.
Not sure I get it. If I think about a walk I had yesterday I see pictures of what happened and feel sensations according to this event. If I think about a meeting with friends next week, I see pictures how it might be and there also nice sensations related to this perspective.

Looking forward to your message.
Véronique

[Ronaldo]

Dear Véronique,
I'm answering in reverse order today :)

The thought about the past are related to something that is accomplished, and the thought about the future are related to something that is planned.

Basically, the only way you know a thought is about the past or the future is in the thought content itself. So a thought like "I lived there" implies a past, an image from the past is tagged as such, and a plan for the future is doing the same. I just wanted you to be aware of that.

Funny this all looks more like therapy than non duality to me but it helps me to let myself just be what I am. Brings me back to this place where there is nothing to look for.

There are a lot of parallels (for obvious reasons), but I have zero training in therapy, just a few decades of life and a few realizations underlying some of the illusions behind the need for therapy 😌.

Just had the thought what if nobody approves of me... straight a big sadness came up, with a sensation in the chest. I let it go through me and it is again peaceful with sadness on the background realizing how much I have been adjusting all my life, I already saw it but it is another peel of the oignon going away, it makes me want to really spend time with me and be gentle.

That sounds like a small breakthrough :)
It's good to go into the emotions, and also challenge the thought, is it true?

But at this point in the inquiry (and back to nondual) don't miss another key inquiry.
"nobody approves of me" is a thought.
Are thoughts talking to you?
What are thoughts talking to?
Is there someone separate from thoughts that thoughts are talking TO?


When I say "don't brush it off with 'there's nobody'" I mean that by providing this answer, not to me, but to yourself, you avoid looking. You keep this investigation on the intellectual level and never dip yourself all in the actual experience. With every question, put aside your knowledge, your understanding and look at it like a child would, at face value.
I really can't stress this enough. If you already have the idea that "it's all happening" and "there is nobody" you insert it and end the inquiry, nothing seen, no new experience, you stay in the domain of thoughts. It's very tempting and automatic. So with the above and the below questions, pay attention to not fall into this trap, and if you need more time, take it, but be brave and dive in. Don't think about jumping, jump.


Look at these questions, spend time on each (even if they seem like repeats), and please elaborate how you do your looking, give me the boring details :)

Is there anything that needs your doing? Or everything is just happening?

What do you do in order to be?

What do you do in order to see?
What do you do in order to hear?
What do you do in order to feel?
What do you do in order to taste and smell?

What do you do for thoughts to be?

What do you do in order for the body to be?

You need to really look at each item with lots of curiosity, it's nothing short of amazing so get it touch with it!
Let me know what you find.

With love,
Ron

[Veronique]

Dear Ron,

I will answer your other questions later but I just want to understand this question.

You keep this investigation on the intellectual level and never dip yourself all in the actual experience

.

I really don't agree with you. I am suprised you are saying that.... maybe my English is not very clear, or maybe doubts come up but I see and have seen in my actual experience that everything is happening by itself. I don't see it all the time but I know that it does wether I am aware of it or not. When you write this it makes me feel like you don't totally get what is going on here. Maybe you can clarify.

Thanks,
Veronique

Thank you

[Ronaldo]

Dear Véronique,

Oh,sorry, I simply dropped the very important "IF" while editing.
"If you keep this investigation on the intellectual level..."
I think most of the time you are doing a good solid investigation, I simply want to raise this to your awareness because it's an easy trap to fall into.

I'm glad you asked to clarify.

Have a good night
Ron

[Veronique]

Thanks a lot for this clarification Ron, I understand better what you are saying. If really changes the meaning 😉.
I see the trap of understanding things with the mind.
It was good you said it made to look at emotions and feelings.

Have a nice evening!

With love,
Veronique

[Veronique]

Dear Ron,

What do you do in order to be?
What do you do in order to see?
What do you do in order to hear?
What do you do in order to feel?
What do you do in order to taste and smell?
What do you do for thoughts to be?
What do you do in order for the body to be?

Like you proposed I will spend some time with these questions and the other one on your message.
Sofar I spent time today with each question and I am just blank. Only silence and also gratitude for you who asked me to look with curiosity and wonder.
Will let you know tomorrow what else comes up.

With love,
Véronique

[Ronaldo]

OK, take the time :)

Remember, it's always simple, it's just what already is taking place, you just notice..
Do you do anything in order to see these colors creating shapes, that thoughts label as "letters"?
Do you do anything to have the thoughts that appear?

Please experience each item, give it space and let it show up in its simple glorious mystery :)
where do these experiences appear?

with love
Ron

[Veronique]

Dear Ron,

Today I have time to really look deeply into your questions, I have two appointements canceled.
This morning I felt guilty, instead of trying to apologize I looked at the sensation. I see something far away a voice telling "no!", like resistance. I see it happening, noticing and not acting on it. But what I see even more is that it took this direction this morning, but the situation, the thoughts, the sensation, the resistance or the non-resistance are happening by themselves.
I look at life as it is and not to get somewhere else.

Are thoughts talking to you?
What are thoughts talking to?
Is there someone separate from thoughts that thoughts are talking TO?

What I see is that thoughts are just appearing, like I told you many times (sorry I don't fin another way to say it ;)). Not talking to me or to someone separate. It is not an intellectual understanding. I have difficulty explaining it but looking opens everything, only silence remain, nothing and everything at the same time. Spending time with this is wonderful, it gives spaciousness to everything. I understand that it is not just a quick look, I see, I write it to Ron and it is over... it goes deeper and deeper the more I look, it gives a sense of wonder.

What do you do in order to be?
What do you do in order to see?
What do you do in order to hear?
What do you do in order to feel?
What do you do in order to taste and smell?
What do you do for thoughts to be?
What do you do in order for the body to be?
Do you do anything in order to see these colors creating shapes, that thoughts label as "letters"?
Do you do anything to have the thoughts that appear?

I looked at all these questions one after the other. I do nothing in order to be, it is a mystery but it happens, same with seing, hearing, feeling, tasting, smelling, being, with the body just being, with colors creating shapes, with thoughts appearing. Spending time with this realization gives me holidays :)
Again silence, openness, a place of not knowing, not understanding, nothing to hold on to, just empty and full at the same time. How can this be? It is not understandable.

Please experience each item, give it space and let it show up in its simple glorious mystery :)
Remember, it's always simple, it's just what already is taking place, you just notice..

YES :)

where do these experiences appear?

They appear from nothing and go back to nothing and are nothing in essence, there is no density in reality, just appearance.

With love and joy :)
Véronique

[Ronaldo]

Dear Véronique,
Thank you, it was lovely to read your replies.
Some of these you have seen before, but look again please :)

So is there anything that there is a control over?
What does this experience happening TO?
Is there someone here having this experience?
Is the body the experiencer, or the body appears AS an experience?

What are you separate from right now?
Are you separate from this experience, being something other than experience and experiencing what is going on?

Is this very experience is separate from the knowing of it?

Is there anything outside of this here-and-now experience?

Are there any doubts, any questions?
How is the seeking?
Are you looking for a purpose?
Suffering can continue, all these deep emotions need to be addressed, observed, untangled, but is there frustration from not getting it, or looking for something?

With love
Ron

[Veronique]

Dear Ron,

Thank you for your early reply. It gave me time to chew your questions :) (not sure you can say it that way)
I went for a walk with some of them. I really like the question you asked me the other day “What do you do in order to see, to think, to fee… ?” These questions are with me all day long, it is very beautiful to explore the mystery of being.

So is there anything that there is a control over?

No nothing :) I believed thoughts made me act and that I created thoughts. Well I see now again and again that thoughts just appear and that acting happens also all the time without thinking. Where can there be any control 🤔

What does this experience happening TO?

To nothing. Experience is just happening.

Is there someone here having this experience?

Same answer as before

Is the body the experiencer, or the body appears AS an experience?

All is just appearing the body and the rest, no difference, the body is. Sometimes I cannot see the difference between the body and an object.

What are you separate from right now?

Thinking I am the organism made me feel as if there was a limit. Seeing that it is all happening by itself like everything else, where can the limit be?

Are you separate from this experience, being something other than experience and experiencing what is going on?

The experience and the one experiencing it are one, actually there is only experience, it is simultaneous. It looks transparent with no real density as it is empty but also full at the same time. I see that very clearly at times and sometimes when I am busy it is more difficult to see. I like to take time to look deeper. At the moment it is very important for me to take time for this. Thank you Ron your guidance shows me how important it is to look again and again and again and…………

Is this very experience is separate from the knowing of it?

Same answer as before. No difference between both otherwise there would be two. How is it possible?

Is there anything outside of this here-and-now experience?

No now is all there is.

Are there any doubts, any questions?

Not now :)

How is the seeking?

Not anymore just exploring 

The looking for a purpose?

Nothing outside of now, tasting it, I see how painful the searching has been for so many years and how simple it is to just be here, I am happy it is over, happy just to be.

Suffering can continue, all these deep emotions need to be addressed, observed, untangled, but is there frustration from not getting it, or looking for something?

No and at the same time I see the importance to continue exploring. It is not finished and always get deeper. My feeling is that if I get very busy I will forget about it, but not for long I think the taste of it is too much like holidays :)

With love,
Véronique

[Ronaldo]

Dear Véronique,

Thank you for the lovely replies.

The looking for a purpose?

Nothing outside of now, tasting it, I see how painful the searching has been for so many years and how simple it is to just be here, I am happy it is over, happy just to be.

Beautiful.

is there frustration from not getting it, or looking for something?

Deepening never ends, but it's no longer an obsession or a struggle, it becomes a flow with ups and downs, with love, peace, allowing emotions to be here, moments of resistance and search, and a deepening (even if it sometimes feels like sliding backwards). I'm very glad you see all that.

Unless you'd like to discuss anything else, please take your time again and answer the final questions from where you are right now. The road does not end here, and were are not saying goodbye either :)


1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form?
Was there ever?

2) Share in your own words what the illusion of separate self is and how it shows up in experience.

3) How does it feel to see this?

What is the difference from before you started this dialogue?

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over; made you look?

5a. Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work?
Give examples from your own recent experiences to how things happen and how things work.
5b. What are you responsible for? Give examples from your own recent experiences to how this works.

6) Anything to add?


with love
Ron