Liberation

[Bacham]

Hi Floris!

So it is certainly from your experience that the brain is doing that?

The brain (people) I guess as the experience has no difference if the table is called a chair.

Glad you see that! Does it feel true that identity is just this collection of mental impressions and stories that have been gathered throughout the years?

I tried to find an I and identity in the room, but there was no one. what I was reading and watching before, there was no clarity as it is built mostly around the spiritual practices and which I am far from. This website and youtube of LU made it clear by asking the practical questions. Thanks for that!

Normally we say 'I hear a noise', so, let's explore that. notice the sounds that are going on around you and inquire:
- can you find something which is doing the hearing? An I, ears, a body..

I can say surely, It feels better with the sound than the seeing. The sound(s) comes from nowhere. The hearing is just happening. More explanation in the next question.

- Can you find 'hearing', or can you just find the sound? Or perhaps we could turn it around, and label 'the sound' instead as 'hearing'?

There are so many sounds happening at the same time and hearing them all at once is an interesting process. And there is one sound which "services" as a background. It's barely perceptible and sounds like a very light buzzing sound (not sure if the word in English is correct). It's a sound of salience.

- do you notice how images/thoughts are imposed onto the experience?

I am not sure if I understand the question. Maybe with an example it can be more clear?

Here to take it into a little other direction. Sit down, relax, close your eyes. And focus on the sounds you're hearing around you. These sounds are usually called or thought of as outside of you. Now make an 'internal sound' in your mind. These sounds are usually called or thought of as inside you. Now if you go back and forth with your attention between these two sounds (the outside and inside sound), there should be a border of sorts that your attention passes if there really is such a thing as an inside or outside. Check this, go from what is called the inside sound, to the outside sound, and see if you can find a boundary or border where the inside space is left, and outside space is gone into by attention. Is such a border found? Is there a place where the inside space stops, and an outside space begins, or could it be the same space?

Nope, no border found. The only difference is that with closed eyes, a buzzing sounds is more sensible. Hopefully, 'a buzzing sounds' is clear and understandable:)

Love from a very noisy, colorful and green land!

Bacham

[Florisness]

Hi Bacham,

The brain (people) I guess as the experience has no difference if the table is called a chair.

Why are you saying "The brain (people)" ? Are you believing that what you are is a brain?:)

I tried to find an I and identity in the room, but there was no one. what I was reading and watching before, there was no clarity as it is built mostly around the spiritual practices and which I am far from. This website and youtube of LU made it clear by asking the practical questions. Thanks for that!

Okay, good! So can the identity loose control in any way?

I am not sure if I understand the question. Maybe with an example it can be more clear?

Okay, when you close your eyes and notice all sort of sounds, can you see how all sort of thoughts (for example pictures) come as what that sounds is supposed to be. For example a sound is present, and a thought comes with the thought of a bird.

Nope, no border found. The only difference is that with closed eyes, a buzzing sounds is more sensible. Hopefully, 'a buzzing sounds' is clear and understandable:)

Could we say then that you are this space? And can you find an edge/border/end to it?

Wishing you well,
Floris

[Bacham]

Good evening Floris,

Sorry, there was a notification that you replied but when I opened the chat it was shown as "read". I checked again the messages only now.

Why are you saying "The brain (people)" ? Are you believing that what you are is a brain?:)

Hmmm, no I am not. I have got it. I kept telling you that i understand that there is no an I, but I think I am getting it only now. Yes, there is the chair, the table, the box or other objects they all exist in the room, in the real life, but there is no an I. And definitely the brain doesn't belong to an I. Its a part of the body... Maybe you can ask more from another direction to see if I am on a right track.

So can the identity loose control in any way?

an I and identity are not the same? How it can loose the control if the life goes as it is and there is no control over it.

Okay, when you close your eyes and notice all sort of sounds, can you see how all sort of thoughts (for example pictures) come as what that sounds is supposed to be. For example a sound is present, and a thought comes with the thought of a bird.

Yes, a sound is followed by a picture of bird, car...Or if there many sounds, its like an orchestra without a conductor and sounds are associated with certain pictures. But it happens when the concentration is on the sounds.

Could we say then that you are this space? And can you find an edge/border/end to it?

Yes, and with close eyes it feels so pleasant. I cant say yet that it can be "me" but I think I started exercising 15-20 minutes a day to stay with close eyes (usually before I sleep), just to have this feeling. Its interesting because before I usually got bored reading or practicing something like yoga for example.

Thank you very very much!

With love,

Bacham

[Florisness]

Good morning Bacham,

Hmmm, no I am not. I have got it. I kept telling you that i understand that there is no an I, but I think I am getting it only now. Yes, there is the chair, the table, the box or other objects they all exist in the room, in the real life, but there is no an I. And definitely the brain doesn't belong to an I. Its a part of the body... Maybe you can ask more from another direction to see if I am on a right track.

We're just tying up some loose ends, it's going well! So, yes, you are on the right track. Except of course literally, is there really a you on the right track? :-) Can a person, a bacham, a biological entity, be found that could get it, not get it, figure it out or not, understand it, misunderstand it, be confused about it?

an I and identity are not the same? How it can loose the control if the life goes as it is and there is no control over it.

Well yes, just brought it up because earlier in an earlier reply you wrote "it’s scary as I feel (as an identity) that I am losing the control which is again an illusion and it makes me crazy".

Yes, and with close eyes it feels so pleasant. I cant say yet that it can be "me" but I think I started exercising 15-20 minutes a day to stay with close eyes (usually before I sleep), just to have this feeling. Its interesting because before I usually got bored reading or practicing something like yoga for example.

Sounds like a nice exercise:). Is there like an entity, a bacham that can be this space, this consciousness? Or perhaps this consciousness is what the word 'I' should refer to if used correctly? Can you claim space itself as your identity or body? Of course, this could be seen as a bit of an in-between step, and you could go more subtle, but it might serve a useful purpose.

Wishing you a good day,
Floris

[Bacham]

Good morning Floris,

Except of course literally, is there really a you on the right track? :-)

hahaha, an illusion is on a right track:)!

Can a person, a bacham, a biological entity, be found that could get it, not get it, figure it out or not, understand it, misunderstand it, be confused about it?

Not anymore. More time needed to digest it. Really, more time required to sleep over with it and digest the whole process. indeed, there was a confusion before to distinguish and understand between an I and physical body, where an I doesn't exist. Its an illusion. There is a kind of relief and at the same time its still a bit sad. Maybe "I" need another week to accept it and feel more comfortable. Maybe the ego is not happy:))) and tries to pull me back:)

Well yes, just brought it up because earlier in an earlier reply you wrote "it’s scary as I feel (as an identity) that I am losing the control which is again an illusion and it makes me crazy".

No more fear! I replied above, i guess its more about ego which realized that it has no more plans:)

Is there like an entity, a bacham that can be this space, this consciousness? Or perhaps this consciousness is what the word 'I' should refer to if used correctly? Can you claim space itself as your identity or body? Of course, this could be seen as a bit of an in-between step, and you could go more subtle, but it might serve a useful purpose.

it feels like something very pleasant and subtle. And I dont know if it can be Bacham:(. I can guess that Silence is "me", tis is what people say but I want to get this experience myself and I am fully in it and convinced.

Thank you for patience and guidance. Thank you for being there for people. its indeed priceless what you do.

Hugs and have a lovely day:)

Bacham

[Florisness]

Hi Bacham,

hahaha, an illusion is on a right track:)!

Santa claus is well on it's way towards realization!

Not anymore. More time needed to digest it. Really, more time required to sleep over with it and digest the whole process. indeed, there was a confusion before to distinguish and understand between an I and physical body, where an I doesn't exist. Its an illusion. There is a kind of relief and at the same time its still a bit sad. Maybe "I" need another week to accept it and feel more comfortable. Maybe the ego is not happy:))) and tries to pull me back:)

That sounds good. Of course, listening to how you feel is a good one. Yes, 'the self/person' is all about a confusion of identifying with a/the body, and adding lots of stories to that, agreed? How do you think this confusion starts?
Of course, give it some time. And in a way you can't really get pulled back. If you understand/see something, that stays. If doubts come, perhaps it's an opportunity to look at it again.

it feels like something very pleasant and subtle. And I dont know if it can be Bacham:(. I can guess that Silence is "me", tis is what people say but I want to get this experience myself and I am fully in it and convinced.

Not sure what you mean with "And I don't know if it can be Bacham". Could you explain that further?

Thank you for patience and guidance. Thank you for being there for people. its indeed priceless what you do.

Thank you. As you might imagine, it can be quite a fulfilling thing to do. You could always join in later if you want a share of the fun;)

Much love,
Floris

[Bacham]

Yes, 'the self/person' is all about a confusion of identifying with a/the body, and adding lots of stories to that, agreed? How do you think this confusion starts?

Certainly! And it feels much lighter now! Even during a daily routine, it finally becomes noticeable. Just a couple of months ago, I was pushing myself to see something which I couldn't understand what I was looking for. I simply liked the stories that others were telling. I though that If I get the same experience, the next morning there will be a different "me". Is only now I realized that nothing actually got changed and will changed but the feeling and perception is completely different. I still feel I need a bit more to completely feel/get this experience. Surely, there is no an I and never existed.
About an I, it starts with a story that a/the body is an I, an identity. with a time, this an I becomes so strong that the whole Universe should dance to please an I! Now it sounds like nonsense!:)

Not sure what you mean with "And I don't know if it can be Bacham". Could you explain that further?

Bacham as an I, an an identity? In this concept, no it cant be. Bacham as the body is the body.

Love,

Bacham

[Florisness]

Good morning Bacham,

Certainly! And it feels much lighter now! Even during a daily routine, it finally becomes noticeable. Just a couple of months ago, I was pushing myself to see something which I couldn't understand what I was looking for. I simply liked the stories that others were telling. I though that If I get the same experience, the next morning there will be a different "me". Is only now I realized that nothing actually got changed and will changed but the feeling and perception is completely different.

Nice to read, and I can relate:)

I still feel I need a bit more to completely feel/get this experience. Surely, there is no an I and never existed.
About an I, it starts with a story that a/the body is an I, an identity. with a time, this an I becomes so strong that the whole Universe should dance to please an I! Now it sounds like nonsense!:)

fully get what experience?? If you mean no-self experience, you've been having that all your life! But perhaps you mean removing even more conditioning. Ha, and sounds like a nice perception shift.

Bacham as an I, an an identity? In this concept, no it cant be. Bacham as the body is the body.

Okay. But I suppose it's clear that the body isn't living life/experiencing/etc?

Would you like to be asked the confirmation questions? These are standard questions that are always asked at the end of the conversation.

Wishing you well,
Floris

[Bacham]

Hi Floris!

Unbelievable, it was not simply at all and at the same time it sounds so simple. It took a year to finally get the experience, though not that long period. Here, happy happy happy! For now I don't have questions. I may have them later. Can I get in touch with you through this chat if I have questions?

I am (the body!) from Russia. I requested the guidance in Russian language. Was not sure if possible to get the experience in another language because even sometime reading the literature and watching videos in Russian language, I could hardly understand. Thank you Floris for replying to my request. What you do guys is something amazing! Thank you for your guidance, patience and time. Let the awakening happen!

Stay well and lots of love!

Bacham

[Florisness]

Hi Bacham,

Very nice to read, thank you! There was one thing that caught my attention, which was your sentence "I am (the body!) from Russia". Are you thinking you are the body? If yes, we could examine this further.

If not, then if you like I could ask the confirmation questions, which can then lead to you be able to join a LU facebook group later if you would please. Of course, no need for any of that if you don't want to.

In any way it was very good to talk with you. I wish you all the best all-ways, and lots of love!
Floris

[Bacham]

hahaha

There was one thing that caught my attention, which was your sentence "I am (the body!) from Russia". Are you thinking you are the body? If yes, we could examine this further.

No, no, I will have to learn how to communicate correctly being new "me":)))

If not, then if you like I could ask the confirmation questions, which can then lead to you be able to join a LU facebook group later if you would please. Of course, no need for any of that if you don't want to.

Yes, please, ask!

Have a nice evening,

Bacham

[Florisness]

Hi there Bacham,

Alright, here goes:
1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

5) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work? What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.

6) Anything to add?


Wishing you a good evening too,
Floris

[Bacham]

Hi Floris,

Here are the answers:

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

That was the most difficult part to realize. 'I' is just an identification or classification of a body with emotions, thoughts…all together. An I doesnt exists and never did.

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

Again, 'self', 'me' 'I' is the concept that I lives somewhere in the body. There was always the feeling that an I or me is somewhere behind the eyes. When I started looking for an I inside me, inside my body I couldn’t find it. It was a bit scary and at the same time it made me laughing. Also, it was a bit sad to understand that in fact I don’t exist. The next day in the office, I was watching the colleagues and their ‘I’, ‘he’, ‘she’. The most exciting was to notice so called alliance of their ‘I’ and ego and dynamics between these two when different emotions occurred. An I is a thought, which is associated with the body, and it doesn’t exist in reality. The body exists but an I doesn’t.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

Absolutely. When we started, I still couldn’t distinguish between the body and an I and if I do exist as ‘an I’. When answering the question, I realized that my answers were confused and it caused by the fact that I was not giving the answers from my experience but what I had read before. I had to read the questions over and over again.

Please report from the past few days.

This period is very busy in the office. There was the seeing of all us running like crazy from one office to another. At the moment, there was the feeling as if I was watching a movie, where I could see the whole scene happening in the office but didn’t care at all. It was just happening and the seeing didn’t care if we submit the reports to the donor on time or not, or if other urgencies will be solved or not.

It also worked out well with the negative emotions. If there is no ‘me’ as such, who can be a victim? Who can suffer? Who can feel pain? Surprisingly, I couldn’t find the one who felt the pain. And the pain was just like a sheet of paper. I am still at the begging of the process but I can see how ‘an I’ tries to come back through daily routine. I started noticing it especially when I stop the flow of thoughts during the day.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

When you asked me to look inside and find the border between what I fell inside and outter world. That’s subtle sounds in the background made me completely realized that this is just the silence. The seeing, the feelings, the hearing are just happening. That was the best exercise. No an I, no borders, nothing.

5) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work? What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.

There is no one who takes the decision, no one who can control the process of living; there no one who can wish something… the list of doing can be long. I was watching the animals outside, and it’s a good example to notice that the animals don’t have an I, they don’t decide anything, they don’t control anything. All actions are either instincts or reactions to something – this is the life that lives itself.

6) Anything to add? The life is beautiful as it is.

There are many things ahead to discover, I believe. And nothing really got changed. It’s an interesting feeling which simply impossible to describe but to experience it.

With love,

Bacham

[Florisness]

Hi Bacham,

Good to read your answers Bacham. A question came about this sentence:

The body exists but an I doesn’t.

We mentioned something about this earlier, but let's do it again. Is there really a body? Or maybe sometimes you see at times a handappearance, a legappearance, when standing before the mirror a headappearance, etc. Maybe a body is only assumed, what do you think?

When sitting down and closing your eyes. Is there something there that is (being) a body? Or maybe just a heap of sensations layed out in certain patters, which thought perhaps labels as a leg, or head, etc.?

with love,
Floris

[Bacham]

good morning Floris,

Is there really a body?

HA-HA-HA! You cant imagine! I have just realized it that THE BODY DOESNT EXIST!!I Laughing loudly here! I look at the mirror and could see hand, palms, head, nose, eyes...., legs...but body as such? Ha ha ha. You really made my day!

Big hugs!

Bacham