Meditating

[erikv]

What is really felt and what is thoughts talking about the body?

I’m having some trouble interpreting this question but maybe not. What is “really felt” could be described as points of pressure against what I presume to be my skin, which my mind labels as an itch. I also feel tingly sensations in my legs and the feeling of air around my exposed arms.

Does the sensation know what it is suposed to be?

I would say no, these sensations just occur without any inherent labeling or conceptualization.

[Jadzia]

What is “really felt” could be described as points of pressure against what I presume to be my skin, which my mind labels as an itch. I also feel tingly sensations in my legs and the feeling of air around my exposed arms.

Aren't just sensations felt? There is just something physical felt,right?
So the add on by thoughts are: skin, itch, tingling, legs, air, arms, pressure. All are labels.
One of the main jobs of thoughts is labeling. It is almost impossible to use the senses and don't get a word/label immediately.
Does the label know that what it labels?
Is there any connection between label and the labeled other than in thought?

Does the sensation know what it is suposed to be?
I would say no, these sensations just occur without any inherent labeling or conceptualization.

Right. A sensation is just floating, coming, staying, going.

Love,
Jadzia

[erikv]

Aren't just sensations felt? There is just something physical felt,right?

Yes, another way I could describe it is tiny disturbances in the cloud of energy I feel inside, and on the outline of, my body. It’s like a field of potential, where a tiny disturbance can or cannot occur at any given moment. More labels yay.

Does the label know that what it labels?
Is there any connection between label and the labeled other than in thought?

The label exists in thought-land and therefore cannot know the sensation it is labeling. The label needs to exist in order to conceptualize a sensation, at which point the sensation is no longer a sensation — it becomes an “itch” or a “stomach rumble”. I think of it like a one-way street where sensations arise out of awareness straight into the mind for processing/labeling. Am I on the right track?

[Jadzia]

Yes, another way I could describe it is tiny disturbances in the cloud of energy I feel inside, and on the outline of, my body. It’s like a field of potential, where a tiny disturbance can or cannot occur at any given moment. More labels yay.

More concepts!
Can you see that each label is a concept in some way, too?
Think the word: apple.
Are you able to just think the word?
Or are ideas, images, more words appearing? Like when you had your last apple, how yummy it was, that it was red/green/yellow, sweet, sour or so on?
Each word a whole idea.

Thougths describe and that is one of the really powerful tools in weaving Erics story. Something isn't just a sensation, merely a sensation. No, there is the idea of energy, disturbance, cloud, feeling and so on making the story more relatable and sure more interesting. See?
We have a look here how something that never existed the way it is believe appears, becomes sticky, convincing.
So be on the look out for stories.
DE is a helpful tool here. You don't feel energy, you feel something about which a whole story is created in almost lightspeed.
Agreed?

The label exists in thought-land and therefore cannot know the sensation it is labeling.The label needs to exist in order to conceptualize a sensation, at which point the sensation is no longer a sensation — it becomes an “itch” or a “stomach rumble”.

yes. Neither label nor sensation know of each other, there is no link between them in any way.

I think of it like a one-way street where sensations arise out of awareness straight into the mind for processing/labeling. Am I on the right track?

Weaving a story, careful.
Where do you find mind in your direct experience, where awareness? ;-)
Have a look, can you find any of them?

Love,
Jadzia

[erikv]

You don't feel energy, you feel something about which a whole story is created in almost lightspeed.
Agreed?

Yes it seems this is the only way the mind can understand what is felt, if it is conceptualized into a story.

Where do you find mind in your direct experience, where awareness?

I suppose I don’t experience a “mind” in my direct experience, it is just a label I’ve assigned to relate to my thoughts. “Awareness” on the other hand feels like the undercurrent of direct experience. Like I can’t experience it directly because experience arises from it. There wouldn’t be the experience of typing this sentence if the awareness of it didn’t exist. I hope that makes sense!

[Jadzia]

Yes it seems this is the only way the mind can understand what is felt, if it is conceptualized into a story.

This is important!
There is what senses get, which is just what it is, colour/form, sound, taste, smell, sensation (physical), just this.
What is the rest?
Somthing real or concept, beliefs, assumptions, guesses?

Now have a close look:
What is Eric in DE?
What can really be known if one doesn't rely on thoughts offers?

I suppose I don’t experience a “mind” in my direct experience, it is just a label I’ve assigned to relate to my thoughts.

Did you have a look?
Mind is a label for something unknown, unproofed, something which can't be experienced, yes.
It is more a concept but a word, or?

“Awareness” on the other hand feels like the undercurrent of direct experience. Like I can’t experience it directly because experience arises from it. There wouldn’t be the experience of typing this sentence if the awareness of it didn’t exist. I hope that makes sense!

Don't fall for thoughts offers. You know the kind of "I can't get it but by observing something else it is proofed" - don't fall for something like that.
Lets have a look at the word university.
What is university?
You can come up now with different parts: building, students, computer, rooms, books and so on and then say: Well, there is the university.
But does an universty exist? Ot is it just a word we use to communicate and make it a bit easier for us?
What about awareness?

Love,
Jadzia

[erikv]

What is the rest? Somthing real or concept, beliefs, assumptions, guesses?

The rest seems to be concept.

What is Eric in DE? What can really be known if one doesn't rely on thoughts offers?

I'm having a hard time coming up with a response for these two questions. Erik is a label that is associated with the sense of self. We went through the process earlier of understanding that labels are add-ons apart from DE, therefore the label Erik can't be experienced in DE.

But does an universty exist? Ot is it just a word we use to communicate and make it a bit easier for us? What about awareness?

You're right that the words we use are just communication tools that can point others towards some understanding. The same thing for awareness. It is simply a word whose connotation sparks ideas and concepts in my mind, but in and of itself has no significance.

[Jadzia]

Erik is a label that is associated with the sense of self. We went through the process earlier of understanding that labels are add-ons apart from DE, therefore the label Erik can't be experienced in DE.

You're right that the words we use are just communication tools that can point others towards some understanding. The same thing for awareness. It is simply a word whose connotation sparks ideas and concepts in my mind, but in and of itself has no significance.

Yes, there is the idea of Eric as a sense of self. Tat is ok for the moment, the sense of self falls in later steps past the gate.

Now lets play and connect your two answers.
Eric is a label connecting several things, you agree? Like university, right?
If we stick to DE for a moment:
There is a smell, sensations labeled body, Eric's body, a voice, labeled Erics voice, a smell, a taste, and colour form, labeled Erics body. All this labeling happens in thoughts.
Where do we find the rest which seems to be part of Eric? Anywhere else than in thoughts? As ideas, images, beliefs?
This all together seems to point towards an entity Eric who is owner of his life.

Is Eric in any way different than any concept/construct?
Does Eric exist other than in thoughts, the story about him?

Read this several times and mull it over, check it for yourself, chew it through and answer the questions.

Love,
Jadzia

[erikv]

Is Eric in any way different than any concept/construct?
Does Eric exist other than in thoughts, the story about him?

I suppose the answer to both these questions is no. There are things like personality that come to mind, but personality at the end of the day seems to be just another concept existing only in thought.

[Jadzia]

I suppose the answer to both these questions is no. There are things like personality that come to mind, but personality at the end of the day seems to be just another concept existing only in thought.

Doesn't sound as if you are convinced, ;-).
If you let this written above sink in - how do you feel? What emotion comes up?
What would that mean?
What would change if this would really be true?
How would life change?


Really go for this, play with this.

Love,
Jadzia

[erikv]

So the main thing that comes up is fear of death, the loss of my sense of identity as I know it. Occasionally I'll feel the opportunity to let go during meditation but I stop myself because I don't know where "I" will be to make sure I'm still breathing and staying alive throughout. I conceptually understand my body will continue on as always even after crossing the gate, since there never was anyone doing anything in here, but the fearful ego encourages me to not even bother trying to find out the truth "just in case".

I don't know how life would change if I relinquish the belief of self since I haven't yet had any glimpses. A large part of me wants to have a glimpse so I can see that everything is okay, but the small part of me doesn't.

I never really asked but what else do guides here suggest we do, besides reading questions and responding? Is it better to ponder them briefly, meditate on them for an hour, or think about them sporadically throughout the day? Thanks!

[erikv]

Err, “thinking about” was the wrong term to use since DE doesn’t involve thinking. I’m just having trouble with DE since I have difficulty staying mindful of these inquiries for a period of time. Guided meditations that pose similar questions as you do, on the other hand, seem to be a little easier. I’m just not sure if that’s the same as DE.

[Jadzia]

DE is just a tool helping you to see what is real, meaning what can be taken in by senses or noticed (thought, just the thought appearing, not the content) and what is story. That's it.
This helps you to disentangle from the story and see what is. This 'seeing' however is something deeper, it is felt deeply, it is the inner knowing, realizising what was always known and just burrowed under the story.

So the main thing that comes up is fear of death, the loss of my sense of identity as I know it.

Yes! This happens, right? You, in a certain way, are about to see that Eric is empty, just an idea - it can be compared to killing him in some way, at least it is the death of the idea, the belief, right
You already realized that life will be rather the same once the belief of Eric as entity falls, so there will not be any kind of physical death - all just happens in the story.

So what now?
Best way? The fear has to be dealt with - it is just getting in the way of your seeing deeply, of going back to the understanding of what is.
What is fear? It is a protection, it protects something. In this case the status quo, which is a place one is used to and feels safe with.
So what to do with it? Well, one can hide from fear, turn around and walk away from it. Does it help, or is the fear still there?
So what?
What about walking towards it? Inviting it? Asking it what exactly it protects? If it wants to show what is behind it?

I never really asked but what else do guides here suggest we do, besides reading questions and responding? Is it better to ponder them briefly, meditate on them for an hour, or think about them sporadically throughout the day? Thanks!

Whatever works for the individual.... sorry....

But right now I would suggest sitting quietly and gently go exploring what fear wants to tell you.
Sit comfortably. Breathe in and out. Grow into your cushion, the cushion is deeply connected to the floor, the floor is deeply connected to the piece of land your sitting on, the land is the earth which holds you gently right now.
Breathe in and out.
Now jump! Ask fear to say hello. You are ready to face it head on. You are deeply rooted nothing can knock you off your place and deep down you know that fear is just another emotion, a fleeting thing.
See if there is a sensation labeled fear. Embrace this. Keep a gentle focus on it.
Breathe in breathe out.
Now, allow fear to expand. See the story which turns up immediately, offering suggestions and whatever - no need to heed it. :-)
Let fear expand. All emotions want to be on the move, attention helps them to move again.
Now, It might be a good time to ask fear what it protects. Ask if you can see what is behind it.
If something turns up, allow this to expand.
Ask what this now protects and ask if you can see what is behind it.
Maybe something else turns up, do the same.
Go on until you found your answers and nothing more comes.
Always keep in mind that you are safe, sitting on a cushion which is rooted deep down into the earth.

Give this a try or several tries - share what happened.

Love
Jadzia

[erikv]

Sorry for the delayed response! I've been going through some mental health stuff that has been making it difficult to carry out these exercises in a meaningful way. I might just come back to this after I sort things out. I really appreciate all your help so far!

[Jadzia]

Take your time. Sometimes other things are priority.
You can come back anytime.

I hope you find your way through the maze of the problem you having right now!

Love,
Jadzia