In search of light: Who decides to action

[Joranoud]

Hi Ron,

A big shift happened yesterday and this morning, just want to give you an update.

After a week of hard work I had thoughts about smoking a joint which I did. During the trip I had tremendous insights about the no self. Like i’ve been in a dark flat where the light finally got switched on and so many new doors opened. Waauuuww.

It started with laughing like there never was laughing. Afterwards bodily sensations, light in the head, pain in the back and really present. Being in the now, away from the zooming into thoughts. Big insights in thoughts: There is no me in reality, it just all was thought story. And there the thoughts went again in another thought story, and there was observing of them, seeing them like they where.

I walked the city for 2,5 hours straight, just loved being outside. More thoughts came up about a me who wants to keep this state.. Of this could be temporary because of the joint. That its just the moment. Then there was more realization that again this all was more thought story and the only moment there will ever be is the now/moment. The rest just is thought story.

So after all the joy and more thought story about thought story and more thought story ;) I went to bed and woke up the morning with the same feeling and insight. This morning I recalled being in this state earlier in self realization moments at Boom festival 2018 and at some point in the Amazonian Jungle. Earlier this state went away and there is the grasping Joran again, hahahahaha ;-) More thought story. There is no me to realize and there is nothing besides the moment so nowhere to grasp only in thoughts.

Waauuww. Don’t know how this will continue right now. Ill just make another beautiful day out of it. There are thoughts about Joran had his best and last experience last night but hey lets see what happens. Just wanted to share this beautiful experience with you and send my outmost gratitude for you brother Ron, you legend!

Later on I will definitely do the emotional exercise and dive even deeper, there are thoughts about doing this thorough :D
For now I’m enjoying this moment like I havent did before.

I wish you a beautiful day!
Joran

[Ronaldo]

Hi Joran,
Beautiful - yes, please enjoy and take your time!
I'm smiling from ear to ear with you.
Ron

[Joranoud]

Hi Ron,

What an amazing experience this is. Yesterday all was flow with meeting up with friends with similar interest and beautiful talks. During the day I could observe the imaginary Joran making up all kinds of story’s, thoughts etc. But without clinging and going deeper in them.

This morning waking up felt like more awake than ever before with the realization that I don’t exist and neither does anyone else. Spending time at my parents there where all those old patterns playing out which I would normally have stories about and and resistance. Without me as a driver there just was and I could embrace it fully and let life just happening.

I’ll keep on enjoying, just want to let you know I wont reply today but there is still dedication for the investigation ;-)

Wish you a beautiful day and much gratitude!
Joran

[Ronaldo]

Thanks for letting me know.
Yes, no worries, keep flowing and observing, the emotional exercise will have more impact when such emotions arise naturally. Have a blast with your no-self honeymoon.

Ron

[Joranoud]

Hi Ron,

Loved the phrase: No-self honeymoon. Let’s hope it doesn’t end soon and there will be permanent seeing. And yes this is clinging with thoughts from the imaginary I who tricked me again ;-)

Today there was a short and cold shower. I didn’t really got dragged into the self yet but there came some emotions to work with so a good moment for practice and investigation. I got an e-mail from my ex girlfriend which is pulling the imaginary me to all kinds of thoughts and beliefs about himself. I went into it with the proposed exercise, here is a summary:

Please describe the sensation, where it was felt, how it felt, and what you found.

Trigger: E-mail from my ex GF where she is blaming me for the ending of our relationship and not caring about her.
A contraction in the upper belly. There are thoughts about the imaginary me not being enough and failing. Those thoughts bring up more thoughts and images of past experience and thoughts that hold judgment. I can only see thoughts and the sensation of the body, and more thought structure about an imaginary I that is responsible and wants to get away from this feeling. Wants to fix it asp.

When I look at it it without thoughts it is just a feeling inside the body, contraction in the upper belly. It is just there. I don’t know where its made of, it is just there. And there are more thoughts about it coming from past experiences or more beliefs about the self. Again, without the thoughts it is just a contraction in my belly. Just letting it be the way it is. Investigating it without bringing up the thought makes it fade slowly.

The state that arises when reading the e-mail of my ex GF is best described as stress. It is made up of thoughts and is linked with the contraction in my belly. Which can be very strong btw. Besides the thoughts and sensation there are more thoughts but nothing else seen. In my thoughts there can be images but no visions, sounds of other sensations. I can stay with it.

When I repeat it the same sensation comes up in my body. It is more recognized and less disturbing but it is still there. Going back to investigating I can feel it getting stronger and less stronger, like pulsing. When the thoughts go to somewhere else the sensation is still felt but less intense.

Regards! Joran

[Ronaldo]

Hi Joran,

Loved the phrase: No-self honeymoon. Let’s hope it doesn’t end soon and there will be permanent seeing.

I have some bad news and some good news. Yes the honeymoon will end, no state is permanent. Now to the bad news (just kidding) the good news is that seeing is not a state but a shift, something drops, and seeing that "self" is nothing but a concept and an illusion is always available - you've seen it once clear as daylight, you'll always see it. At times it will be obscured by thoughts, but so what?


Emotions, feelings, moodiness, loneliness and the rest will not disappear, I think I already explained why that is, emotions are deeply engraved patterns that persist even without a me, like a song playing on repeat and you forgot when it ever started. But there is a difference in how they are experienced, they lack some of the old gravity and stickiness, but it doesn't have to be either.


There are other variants to the exercise you did, but we're not working on emotional healing or anything like that, we were just looking at them for the purpose of revealing their form of action. As you described, there are thoughts and sensations rising and falling. Did you notice how the sensations point to a self in the body?

You can bring it again, but now, try to find the sufferer or the one stressed.
When the stress appears, is it 'attached' to anything? Or is it free-floating without anything? Note the body sensation but is that sensation a "me"? Is stress located anywhere?


How about the seeking? Is there a drop in trying to figure it all out?

Remember this?

How does self love relate to the no self part? I’ve studied a lot around the self love topic but if there is no self why am I doing this?

Is this still a question that you consider a problem?


Regards
Ron

[Joranoud]

Hi Ron,

I have some bad news and some good news. Yes the honeymoon will end, no state is permanent. Now to the bad news (just kidding) the good news is that seeing is not a state but a shift, something drops, and seeing that "self" is nothing but a concept and an illusion is always available - you've seen it once clear as daylight, you'll always see it. At times it will be obscured by thoughts, but so what?

Hahahah yes I agree. Friday night when Joran died there was exactly the same realization. And whenever Joran gets back installed it can be seen through, it will just be more thought story.

Emotions, feelings, moodiness, loneliness and the rest will not disappear, I think I already explained why that is, emotions are deeply engraved patterns that persist even without a me, like a song playing on repeat and you forgot when it ever started. But there is a difference in how they are experienced, they lack some of the old gravity and stickiness, but it doesn't have to be either.

Reminds me of the theory of Vipassana practice, it makes more sense now. The emotions are only good or bad when they are perceived this way. And the only way they can be perceived in this particular way is trough thoughts about the imaginary me.

There are other variants to the exercise you did, but we're not working on emotional healing or anything like that, we were just looking at them for the purpose of revealing their form of action. As you described, there are thoughts and sensations rising and falling. Did you notice how the sensations point to a self in the body?

There are only thoughts about a me, no real me is felt outside of thoughts. When switching into the me thoughts I can make them pulse stronger, when just observing the thought on itself it gets weaker.

You can bring it again, but now, try to find the sufferer or the one stressed.
When the stress appears, is it 'attached' to anything? Or is it free-floating without anything?

It is attached to thoughts about the imaginary self. When identifying with it a lot more thought story can pop up. Where it came from, what it means, etc.
But when seen as thoughts they just come and go, free floating, unless they find “someone” to hook and go into above thought stories and stick for a while.

Note the body sensation but is that sensation a "me"?

No it is just a bodily sensation, no me to be found.
The me can be found in the thoughts around it: A thought can trigger the body sensation and next the body sensation is a link to an self believe. This sounds like an pre programmed computer.... Or maybe a virus...

Is stress located anywhere?

The body sensation can be felt in the body. The stress comes forth out of the self believe that is perceived negative and should be taken away. Is it located anywhere? No, only in thoughts...

How about the seeking? Is there a drop in trying to figure it all out?

Yes, it will be all thought story ;-) There certainly is a drop in the trying to figure it out. There still is a lot of curiosity (like you can read in above thought stories about how it all works) but there is no Joran looking for answers or the holy grail. There is no me to be found in the present moment, only in thought stories. There is no driver who controls where we go and any thought about a me isnt going to change my life in any way.

Remember this?

How does self love relate to the no self part? I’ve studied a lot around the self love topic but if there is no self why am I doing this?

Is this still a question that you consider a problem?

No this is not a problem anymore. There is more understanding around your answer in the beginning, all the self love practice is just more thought story. Not that it makes it wrong in anyway, if can be practiced in the story but in the end it will be just more thought story. But I said this before ;-)

It has been a major shift the last couple of days. Waking up in the mornings and snap out of all the thoughts stories by realizing that there is no me.

Like yesterday (and probably in the near future) there will be plenty of challenges when thoughts try to pull me back into the me story. Right now the seeing of the no self and no controller helps me to break this illusion about the self and stand the we ground. And the future? Only is there in thought story, now I can see :-)

Thanks brother Ron, I wish you a beautiful day!
Joran

[Ronaldo]

Hi Joran,
Beautiful, thanks for your replies. Yes, what has been realized is the beginning of a lifelong process of deepening and resolution of many other beliefs, unwinding of patterns and much more. It's not the last stop :)

There are only thoughts about a me, no real me is felt outside of thoughts. When switching into the me thoughts I can make them pulse stronger, when just observing the thought on itself it gets weaker.

When you say "I can make them pulse stronger" I'm sure you don't think you are the one doing it, right?

Is there anything you'd like to look more into?
Are you feeling content about what has been realized?

cheers,
Ron

[Joranoud]

Hi Ron,

Beautiful, thanks for your replies. Yes, what has been realized is the beginning of a lifelong process of deepening and resolution of many other beliefs, unwinding of patterns and much more. It's not the last stop :)

Whooooeeehooooeeeeee. Already love the journey

When you say "I can make them pulse stronger" I'm sure you don't think you are the one doing it, right?

No, there is no me in reality. Again this is all thought story, thoughts that lead to more thoughts about an imaginary me.

Is there anything you'd like to look more into?

Yes I do, regarding to the last practice we did. In this practice you asked me this question:

Now drop the tag, and just focus on the sensation, bring up the thought as needed to keep the sensation happening (keep feeding that emotion).

Who is bringing up this thought?
There is some unclarity about what is the part that is observing the thoughts if this isn’t me.
In the eternal now there is observing of thoughts instead of going into them, who is observing.

Are you feeling content about what has been realized?

Yes very content, the realization last weekend was one of the best experiences ever. Yesterday and this morning there is a little coming down, and sometimes there are me thoughts clinging like old patterns but until now this is only for a short while before there is realization that this is just more thought story.

Cheers and gratitude Ron!
Joran

[Ronaldo]

Hi Joran,

Who is bringing up this thought?
There is some unclarity about what is the part that is observing the thoughts if this isn’t me.
In the eternal now there is observing of thoughts instead of going into them, who is observing.

You've already seen this, but I am happy to remind you and expand a bit.
What is happening here: in the story, there is a person Ron sitting in front of his computer, typing on his keyboard to a person Jorn across the ocean and asking them to think about something. In direct experience none of this is outside of the storyline, things appear on the screen - but it's all just color and shapes (which are again, just assumed because of borders between colors). Thoughts appear, sensations appear. The connection is assumed, imagined.

How is this working? Can it be grasped in thought? Nope... that will forever be a mystery.
What we can clearly observe is that the story is illusory, every single time a "me" appears, you check the evidence, and you find nothing there, but you do find an illusion - that is the seeing. Slowly that imagined I shows up less, less claims, just what is.

We use the term "observing" or "looking", and with language that implies an object and a subject relation.
But are there two? Is there an observer of sensations and thoughts, or the observer is just another "me" illusion?

In Buddhism, the Bahiya Sutta gives a clear and useful hint:
In the seen will be merely what is seen;
in the heard will be merely what is heard;
in the sensed will be merely what is sensed;
in the cognized will be merely what is cognized.

You've done this all along, touch the table - is there a 'me' + 'table' or just what is sensed?
look at an object for a while, let the tags drop, soften your gaze... is there anything but colors? is an observer there at all? Or any such observation is an added narrative?

Furthermore Joran, is there a sound and the knowing of the sound?
Is there a sensation and the knowing of the sensation?
Do it very carefully and find that link, the line between sensation and the knowing of it.
OR are they one and the same thing - no line, no separation.
Can there be any experience without the knowing of it?
Isn't an experience self-knowing (not the thought about it, the thought is also known).
Is there anything other than pure experience?

Is that clear?
How does that feel?


Ron

[Joranoud]

Hi Ron,

You've already seen this, but I am happy to remind you and expand a bit.

Yes I have already seen this and happy that you want to expand a bit to go into more detail. This helps a lot!

What is happening here: in the story, there is a person Ron sitting in front of his computer, typing on his keyboard to a person Jorn across the ocean and asking them to think about something. In direct experience none of this is outside of the storyline, things appear on the screen - but it's all just color and shapes (which are again, just assumed because of borders between colors). Thoughts appear, sensations appear. The connection is assumed, imagined.

In direct experience there is only sight, smell, sensation, feeling, tasting and thoughts.

How is this working? Can it be grasped in thought? Nope... that will forever be a mystery.

Maybe we find out one day Ron, even if its in another dimension. We’ll meet ;-)

What we can clearly observe is that the story is illusory, every single time a "me" appears, you check the evidence, and you find nothing there, but you do find an illusion - that is the seeing. Slowly that imagined I shows up less, less claims, just what is.

Seeing trough the illusion is a constant reminder, keep seeing: Who is in there? Only more thought stories.

We use the term "observing" or "looking", and with language that implies an object and a subject relation.
But are there two? Is there an observer of sensations and thoughts, or the observer is just another "me" illusion?

There isn’t. There just is. So the sounds that are heard are sounds, thoughts are thoughts. No one there to look at or trough the eyes of..

In Buddhism, the Bahiya Sutta gives a clear and useful hint:
In the seen will be merely what is seen;
in the heard will be merely what is heard;
in the sensed will be merely what is sensed;
in the cognized will be merely what is cognized.

Love the poem. The truth waits for eyes unclouded by longing. Who is there to long for?

You've done this all along, touch the table - is there a 'me' + 'table' or just what is sensed?

Just what is sensed, the me is an illusion in this equation.

look at an object for a while, let the tags drop, soften your gaze... is there anything but colors? is an observer there at all? Or any such observation is an added narrative?

Just colors and more thought stories.

Furthermore Joran, is there a sound and the knowing of the sound?

I don’t really know what you mean bij knowing of the sound ;-) I’ll try to answer as is the knowing means if there is recognition of the sound.

There just is the sound, and a lot of thought stories that claim there is a me who recognize the sound from past experience but no direct link is to be found.

Is there a sensation and the knowing of the sensation?

The sensation just is and again there are many thought stories who are linked. They can be true, for example there was the sensation of a sour mouth which could be linked with eating hot food the other day. But hey, this again was just more thought story. The sensation is just is and the recognition from it just comes from thought story.

Do it very carefully and find that link, the line between sensation and the knowing of it.
OR are they one and the same thing - no line, no separation.

When eating my breakfast there can be the experience of the taste of the breakfast without any knowing of the flavors. Just for a second. Afterwards I can see thoughts recognizing and labelling: Ginger, apple, tahin, etc.

Can there be any experience without the knowing of it?

Yes! Every experience just is. Without the thoughts about it it can be perceived much stronger. It’s like seeing with eyes without blurring. Open heart less mind.

Isn't an experience self-knowing (not the thought about it, the thought is also known).

Again I don’t know what you mean by self knowing. I will answer it like If an experience just is without the recognizing or understanding.
Yes the experience just is there and doesn’t need any thought structure to be experienced. Hearing, seeing, smelling, feeling can all be done and experienced without any thought structure about a me.

Is there anything other than pure experience?

No if you break it down there just is experience. As far as we can see until we die but maybe even after... The experience just is and there is no (thoughts of a ) driver/perceiver/experiencer needed to have experience. It just is.

Is that clear?

Yes it is. The exercises really help.
Sometimes the me thoughts can temporary put a hook somewhere (mostly in relationship to people who are really deep into it) but when seeing it dissolves. The questions you ask really help with the seeing.

How does that feel?

Light. Back into the place where there isn’t a Joran to be worries about by seeing trough the illusion of it.

Again, so much gratitude for you and the work. It is so wonderful and yet so easy.

Do you have any recommendations how to continue on this path, any more exercises to expand the capability of seeing or other ways to help on the path of no self? More honeymoon destinations ;-)?

Wish you a beautiful day!
Joran

[Ronaldo]

Hi Joran,
I think we had a small communication issue.
When I say "thought and the knowing of the thought"
"sensation and the knowing of the sensation"
I am actually not speaking of the tagging or thought-meaning of the sensation, but the mere recognition that something IS.

Just like: (here with a simplified version)
In the seen only seen;
in the heard only the heard;

Meaning there is nothing dividing it, it's not made of an object and the recognition of the object - there is no object and no subject.
When the eyes are open, and without trying to recognize anything at all, is there the seen?
Is experience composed of objects + the seeing, smelling, hearing etc of the "thing" or there is just the seeing, hearing, smelling? Aren't these all just experienced?

Isn't experience always known - detected - it here - it is - just one thing
Is it possible to have an experience and not realize there it is? Of course not.

I hope I made that more clear, and I am certain you see that.


OK my dear Joran,
Well done. What we usually do at this stage of the process is to ask some final questions that I will show to other guides to see if there is anything that we might have missed. Other guides may or may not have further questions for you.
After that you'll be invited to our unleashed community and other groups will open up.
When you're ready:


1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, how it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over; made you look?

5) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work? What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.

6) Anything to add?


Thank you
Ron

[Joranoud]

Hi Ron, beautiful morning to you! Big post today!

When the eyes are open, and without trying to recognize anything at all, is there the seen?

There just is seeing, only seperation in thoughts.

Is experience composed of objects + the seeing, smelling, hearing etc of the "thing" or there is just the seeing, hearing, smelling? Aren't these all just experienced?

Again, just seeing/hearing/smelling. It all just is experience.

I hope I made that more clear, and I am certain you see that.

Jooooehoooeee!

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

No. There is no me in reality. There are a lot of thought stories that point into this direction but when there is a closer look, nothing to be found. Not now and there never was.

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, how it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

There are thoughts that point to a separate self, that want to own every sensation and thought. It is something that we learn from birth, that there is something inside that is separate from the rest and is in control of the experience.

When looking loser there is seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting and feelings of sensation. The thoughts are programmed to make a claim on them, they have a tendency to label it (green color, table, stinky, sweet, etc) and one of the labels they use is: ITS MINEEEEEE! So this is where the illusion starts, now everything there is in terms of materiality (my table, my house) and even more fucked up the (lack) immaterial things (I have hurt her so much, she doesn’t love me) can’t be seen as they are. Because they just are, nothing or no no one that is in possession of control over them.

All the seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting and feelings of sensation just are there. When looking closely they can’t be separated from experience, they just are experience. There are no thoughts needed to label them and no driver to control them. Everything flows just effortlessly without the thoughts of a Joran sitting behind the wheel who has to make turns to end up somewhere he does’t even know.

There are all different stories played out. When there is the illusion of having the driver seat there are many stories unfolding that seem to be attractive. When letting go of the identification with me the story that’s been playing out is just perfect, all things will play out without believing in the story that there is a me who needs to control and plan things. Just sit back and enjoy the story, it isnt me.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

When starting the dialogue I felt like Joran who knew the story about the illusion of the separate self and all the theory’s about oneness, observing, etc.
Now it feels like there is no me in reality of the present moment and there is a story being played out around Joran.

But hey, these are just more thoughts. How does it feel? The first flashes of realization there where feelings of joy and laughter. When really hitting the realization I felt sparkles in my head and body for over half an hour. Now it feels more light, in the mornings I dream/think about all kinds of identifications and when waking up there is the realization that this is just more thought story.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over; made you look?

The exercises we did where needed to see trough the thought structures that are made up around the “me”. With the actual seeing there was the realization that the “imagined seeing” is just an illusion.

But what really pushed me over where to little sentences: Is there time without thought? Isn’t it just always eternal now?
After reading and responding to this message I went outside for a walk. And a constant chatter was there, all thoughts coming and going. Normally this would be the start for a lot of Me, me, me stuff. Suddenly there was a realization that this was the pattern that’s been going on for so long but it is just an illusion. That it is just more thought story and that the way they are pointing doesn’t exist. That there is no me in reality, just thought story’s that point to it. That in that moment, the eternal now there just is experience. No me to be found in any moment so what’s the use of all the thought stories around it? None! There was clear realization of the now and every thought that came up could be seen as it was, more thought story and not me.

5) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work? What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.

There is the illusion of control that is made up in thoughts again. There are decisions being made and afterwards there are thoughts about this decision that claim it to be mine. Even stronger they make up a whole story about it why I did in and most of the time it was in my best interest. But this is all story, things are just happening.

This doesn’t mean thoughts aren’t linked to actions. A thought about work can lead to a TODO and even an action. But there is no me who controls those thoughts and with it so doesn’t control the actions.

What makes things happen is a mystery. Thoughts just pop up and some lead to action and some don’t. It’s hard to say who is really in control, life just unfolds.

So is there someone responsible for actions, no because there is no me. It just happens so there isn’t anyone to blame. Furthermore any label like good or bad just is a label in thought, all just is.

6) Anything to add?

The way that the story from me is seen right now:
All the stories about the me are just thought stories, because there is no me in reality. The beauty of the story is seen, it is full of mirrors, lessons and things they call karma in life. The whole fuck up is getting caught up in the story of me and definitely don’t want to change or resist against it. Just sit back and enjoy the ride.

In the book I read about the example of the movie theater. That there can be a lot of identification with the character, you can almost feel for the main character when he goes trough the story but in the end you find out you are just in the theater. And that none of this is real. I would like to add:
+ I use to compare life to a videogame. It would be the most awesome VR game you can think of with all kinds of stories, possibility’s in career/relationships, traveling and this is all accompanied with real 10D visuals, smells, tasting, feeling, hearing and all live. You can do anything you like!!!
+ Now after the practice and seeing there is another comparison. Again there is this movie theater and there is Joran in the picture who thought he had an awesome videogame and now realizes all the control he thought he had is just more thought story. That he is just one with all the things experienced and there isn’t anyway he is going to change the movie that is played out. He can just let all those thoughts that point to controlling the movie go, just sit back and enjoy the ride. Inside en outside of the movie, because there isn’t any difference between them

Curious if there are any more questions coming up to deeper the investigation. Either way there is so much gratitude for the insights and practices we did together Ron, wauw. Thanks brother!

Wish you a beautiful day!
Joran

[Ronaldo]

Joran bro,

Other guides have no further questions for you. It has been a genuine pleasure to explore the concept of the separate self with you. Thank you for being so open and willing to look. This has been a fun ride!

Keep an eye out for an email notification from the forum inviting you to join our aftercare groups on Facebook. Your username has changed from green to blue which indicates that you have had the realization of there being no separate self. This thread will be moved to the ‘Archive’ section of the forum, and you will be able to access it with the same link as your thread.

As we already discussed, this is a beginning. There are many more beliefs, patterns and conditionings that require further looking to help them dissolve. So never stop looking if you want things to deepen, there will be times of clarity and times of confusion, always treat yourself kindly and whenever resistance arises - look.

Once you join our FB group, we'll be able to connect there and I will be happy to point you to some groups,
Hope to see you soon.

Ron

[Joranoud]

Whoooeehooee! Again so much gratitude Ron.

There indeed is so much opening up already, with by the realization that there is no seperate self all experiences are different.

It has been a beautiful investigation, thanks for the patience and being thorough. Looking forward to connect and investigate further, wauw!

Cheers! Joran