MindLikeSky

[Vivien]

Hi Peri,

Thank you for replying to the remaining questions.

What’s a Peri? Seems like a label that’s been assigned to a constantly shifting set of sensations, appearances, thoughts, values, preferences.

Yes. There is reality, the actual experience, and then there is an overlay of thought information added on top. So let’s start look at this.

Generally, there seem to be two kinds of thoughts:

1. thoughts which content point to something which is directly experienced, now in the moment.
2. thoughts which content point to NOTHING in DE (direct experience), rather to other thoughts content / ideas / concepts; just an interpretation, a story ABOUT what is going on.

#1 would be ‘There is a table’, or ‘my hands are wet’, or ‘the flower is blooming’ - since something is SEEN at the moment, the thought points to something, even though table / hand / flower is just a label for something SEEN / EXPERIENCED.

#2 would be "I had dinner last night”, or “she said something nasty to me”, or “I want to be free”, or “I am going to do some shopping tomorrow”, etc.

Now please, gently observe your thoughts, noticing how they do their thing, chatting about this and about that, labelling, interpreting, giving meaning to events and things, analysing how things could have done differently, and so on.

While noticing the dance of thoughts, how they go around in loops trying to find verification for their own self-appointed truth…. check for yourself if the above given statement is true.

Are there two ways of thoughts or do you find more? If yes, please do give an example.
Does one set of thoughts point to something in DE and does the other one really point to another thought only?

Please spend a whole day looking at this. Check this again and again throughout your day.

What is answering these questions? Apparently, not somebody, not something.

How do you know that these questions are answered by something or someone at all?

A question is noticed… then an answer arrives.
But does this mean that there is someone/something making it happen? Or the whole thing goes on automatic?

Vivien

[0peri]

Hi Vivien,

Are there two ways of thoughts or do you find more?

one other that feels different.

If yes, please do give an example.

Instructional thoughts arise, most often when sitting, they are usually very brief and direct, rarely more than a three word phrase i.e., “rest”, “look”, “drop it”, “soften”. I suppose these might be categorized as #1 thoughts, not sure. Also, the thought “wow” feels like it’s in it’s own weird category, it comes up a lot when hearing about all the crazy stuff happening in the US right now. Perhaps that’s a #2 thought, or perhaps it’s a word symbolizing mental indigestion.

Does one set of thoughts point to something in DE and does the other one really point to another thought only?

Yes, there are a lot of noticing-thoughts, like the zucchinis are rubbery, the cat puked, or my foot hurts. There are also plenty of #2 thoughts, i.e., he should have resigned Wednesday night, or they should have impeached him Thursday morning and many, many related thoughts.

What is answering these questions? Apparently, not somebody, not something.
How do you know that these questions are answered by something or someone at all?

There is an experience of questioning and answering, from whence it comes is a mystery.

A question is noticed… then an answer arrives.
But does this mean that there is someone/something making it happen?

No.

Or the whole thing goes on automatic?

The word automatic feels terribly mechanical, perhaps mysteriously scripted?

Peri

[Vivien]

Hi Peri,

Instructional thoughts arise, most often when sitting, they are usually very brief and direct, rarely more than a three word phrase i.e., “rest”, “look”, “drop it”, “soften”. I suppose these might be categorized as #1 thoughts, not sure.

Hmmm, not really. Thoughts about direct experience are that describe the immediate experience.

LOOKING is becoming aware of direct experience (DE). ‘Looking’ is just plain looking – noticing the raw experience of just colour, sound, smell, sensation and taste in the present moment, and noticing the labels and thoughts ABOUT the raw experience.

There is a HUGE difference between experience and thoughts ABOUT experience.
This is the difference between reality and fiction.

What is the experience of ‘rest’?
Is it a color? Sound? Taste? Smell? Sensation? Or a thought?

What is the DE of ‘soften’?

Do you see that if a thought about an instruction then that cannot be the current experience?

And the expression of ‘drop it’ is an actual experience, or rather it’s a concept only?

Also, the thought “wow” feels like it’s in it’s own weird category, it comes up a lot when hearing about all the crazy stuff happening in the US right now.

:) interesting :) isn’t wow is just trying to express surprise? Want is surprise if not a concept, aka thought?

Yes, there are a lot of noticing-thoughts, like the zucchinis are rubbery, the cat puked, or my foot hurts.

Are you sure that there are lot of thoughts about DE? For most of us, it’s usually less than 1%

the zucchinis are rubbery,

Zucchini- yes there is something in reality that we call zucchini, but what about rubbery?
So the word ‘zucchini’ points to something that is there in DE, but is this true to the word ‘rubbery’? Or rubbery is rather a description, and interpretation (aka thought story) ABOUT the sensation that is felt when the zucchini is touched?

V: Or the whole thing goes on automatic?

P: The word automatic feels terribly mechanical, perhaps mysteriously scripted?

Just notice is thoughts of not liking the word ‘automatic’ comes up and therefore there is a desire to replace it with a different word. The word ‘mysterious’ sounds more mysterious and fun, right? But just because we like one word better than the other, it doesn’t mean that that one is the truer.

What would happen if it turned out that there is literally no entity anywhere doing anything, and everything just happens on its own, automatically?

Is there a story about negative consequences being attached to this possibility?

The word automatic feels terribly mechanical

Are you sure that the word ‘automatic’ FEELS ‘terribly mechanical’?
Can a word be actually felt? Or rather it’s not an actual FEELING, but a thought only?

More often than not, expressions like "it feels" has so nothing to do with a feeling like joy for example or a sensation like tightness, but it is merely a thought telling a story about something.

When we don’t notice that this is just an expression, a thought only, then we easily fall into the trap of believing that a word can actually be felt. That we actually experience a feeling of ‘terribly mechanical’. And what is the problem with that? That’s how suffering is created.

Every time when we mistake our thoughts for reality, especially our stressful thoughts, automatically suffering is emerges. (and yes, I used the word automatically intentionally :) why? Do you have control over suffering? Can you not suffer in the moment when you suffer? Can you not do it when you don’t want to? Suffer only when you feel like, but don’t when you not? – well… it’s automatic.

Vivien

[0peri]

Hi Vivien,

There is a HUGE difference between experience and thoughts ABOUT experience. This is the difference between reality and fiction.

This statement is clear and as I contemplated your following questions it was driven home.

What is the experience of ‘rest’?
Is it a color? Sound? Taste? Smell? Sensation? Or a thought?

I would have said it was just an experience but am understanding that it’s a thought about what did happen or should/could happen in experience.

What is the DE of ‘soften’?

It has no direct sensorial quality.

Do you see that if a thought about an instruction then that cannot be the current experience? And the expression of ‘drop it’ is an actual experience, or rather it’s a concept only?

I get that it’s an idea/thought and points to something not yet present, just like “soften”

isn’t wow is just trying to express surprise? Want is surprise if not a concept, aka thought?

Yes, that’s clear.

Zucchini- yes there is something in reality that we call zucchini, but what about rubbery?

There is a zucchini on the counter would be DE but any descriptive modifiers such as rubbery or limp are thoughts about what is actually directly experienced– the zucchini on the counter.

Just notice is thoughts of not liking the word ‘automatic’ comes up and therefore there is a desire to replace it with a different word. The word ‘mysterious’ sounds more mysterious and fun, right? But just because we like one word better than the other, it doesn’t mean that that one is the truer.

The word automatic generated an image of machinery and an aversive thought arose, yes.

What would happen if it turned out that there is literally no entity anywhere doing anything, and everything just happens on its own, automatically?

Nothing would happen, because if true, it’s already happening. The advantage to being life rather than having a life (which isn’t a thing) is coming into view.

Is there a story about negative consequences being attached to this possibility?

This needs further investigation. At this moment, the answer is no, but if that’s truly the case, what clings?

Are you sure that the word ‘automatic’ FEELS ‘terribly mechanical’?

automatic led to machine let to cold led to feels, but yes, it’s just a thought about an experience of an imagined machine, not an actual feeling.

Can a word be actually felt?

no, it cannot.

Or rather it’s not an actual FEELING, but a thought only?

see above, yes, a thought.

Every time when we mistake our thoughts for reality, especially our stressful thoughts, automatically suffering emerges. (and yes, I used the word automatically intentionally :) why? Do you have control over suffering? Can you not suffer in the moment when you suffer? Can you not do it when you don’t want to? Suffer only when you feel like, but don’t when you not? – well… it’s automatic.

Making this very explicit is important, thank you. Telling a story about experience and believing the story to be real generates suffering, automatically. When there's pain, there's pain and when there's a story/thoughts about the pain, there is suffering.

Thank you Vivien, Peri

[Vivien]

Hi Peri,

There is a zucchini on the counter would be DE but any descriptive modifiers such as rubbery or limp are thoughts about what is actually directly experienced– the zucchini on the counter.

Yes. So there is a ‘thing’, labelled by thoughts as ‘zucchini’ on another thing called table.
Everything else about the zucchini is thought content, which is added.

It is important to distinguish between what can be experienced in the moment - via senses - and what is content of thought, meaning added.

Nothing would happen, because if true, it’s already happening. The advantage to being life rather than having a life (which isn’t a thing) is coming into view.

Nice :)

The word automatic generated an image of machinery and an aversive thought arose, yes.
automatic led to machine let to cold led to feels, but yes, it’s just a thought about an experience of an imagined machine, not an actual feeling.

So the aversion was to the mental image of a machinery and coldness… and not to the simple noticing how things happen on their own. It’s good to see this :)

V: Is there a story about negative consequences being attached to this possibility?

P: This needs further investigation. At this moment, the answer is no, but if that’s truly the case, what clings?

You mean, what clings to the idea of a separate self? Or do you mean something else?

If it’s about the self… then how do you know that there is a clinging to it? What if it’s just an unquestioned belief/thought only?

Making this very explicit is important, thank you. Telling a story about experience and believing the story to be real generates suffering, automatically. When there's pain, there's pain and when there's a story/thoughts about the pain, there is suffering.

Yes. Physical pain is unavoidable, but suffering is optional :) suffering only ever comes from believing the story ABOUT the pain, but not from the raw sensations labelled ‘pain’.

Just notice thoughts; how much narration is going on. Whatever is happening, thought has something to say about it. It’s constantly weaving stories about everything and everyone.

The story is so well run; the mechanisms are all in place. Thoughts have the tendency to appear as solid truths and it is so enticing to believe each and every one of them.

But are all of our thoughts depicting what is?

Some thoughts point to something, like ‘seeing something’ but other thoughts just point to more thoughts, exploding in a thought merry-go-round. :)

What if instead of thoughts offering solid truths, those explanations are nothing but assumptions? Theories at best?

Vivien

[0peri]

Hello Vivien,

If it’s about the self… then how do you know that there is a clinging to it? What if it’s just an unquestioned belief/thought only?

Yes, it was about the self and that’s clarifying. There’s no knowing that there is someone/something clinging, just that more sleuthing is in order and uninvestigated, unquestioned thought/beliefs remain.

Just notice thoughts; how much narration is going on. Whatever is happening, thought has something to say about it. It’s constantly weaving stories about everything and everyone.
The story is so well run; the mechanisms are all in place. Thoughts have the tendency to appear as solid truths and it is so enticing to believe each and every one of them. But are all of our thoughts depicting what is?

Definitely not.

What if instead of thoughts offering solid truths, those explanations are nothing but assumptions? Theories at best?

This undermines their power to cause suffering. Life becomes more sweet.

Thank you, Peri

[Vivien]

Hi Peri,

This undermines their power to cause suffering. Life becomes more sweet.

Yes :)

Can you see how intricate the story is around this apparent entity, called Peri?

Just notice how much detail thoughts provide… but these are just add-ons… just more narrations, explanation, assumptions… in the name of ‘truth’. What do you find?

Do you notice that the ideas that appear as thoughts are not the same as direct sense experience? That they are something extra that is added on to the immediate experience?

Just notice, how much thoughts add. Likes and dislikes are added, judgments are added, opinions are added, interpretation is added, and so on.

Thoughts claim everything and connect it to an I, a self. This is something easily observed. Chocolate becomes ' I love chocolate and want some now", a car becomes "This is my car", and so on.

The thing can be any object (like cat, house, table, food), but it can also be a concept (love, freedom, job, emotion, etc).
Notice how many thoughts are in a day that make a thing into MY thing, or that thing is being related to ME or are about ME, or I have an opinion or judgement about that thing.

Let me know what you find.

Love,
Vivien

[0peri]

Hello Vivien,

Can you see how intricate the story is around this apparent entity, called Peri?

Peri as dust devil, taking shape out of grains of sand for a few moments, but there's no there, there.

The thing can be any object (like cat, house, table, food), but it can also be a concept (love, freedom, job, emotion, etc). Notice how many thoughts are in a day that make a thing into MY thing, or that thing is being related to ME or are about ME, or I have an opinion or judgement about that thing. Let me know what you find.

Oh so many things claimed, loved, liked, rejected. Very little else is going on. The habit of speaking and thinking in this way is pretty strong. To not do this requires vigilance.

Peri

[Vivien]

Hi Peri,

Could you please make sure that you reply to every blue questions? All questions are pointers for you where to look and help you to see things for yourself. If you don’t reply to them, you are depriving yourself from the possibility to recognize something new.

Could you please go back and reply to them? You might discover something new, or some insights might go deeper.

Oh so many things claimed, loved, liked, rejected. Very little else is going on. The habit of speaking and thinking in this way is pretty strong. To not do this requires vigilance.

The aim if this investigation is not to stop having certain thoughts. It’s not about stopping judging or labelling things as mine. It’s about NOTICING that this is what is happening.

Is there a power over thoughts?
Can you control thought?
Can you stop having the thoughts of I/me/mine/my?

Vivien

[0peri]

Hi Vivien,

My apologies for overlooking questions once again. There’s resistance arising to this process, wanting to take a break for a day, catch my breath. Skipping questions is one of the ways that resistance is showing up.

Just notice how much detail thoughts provide… but these are just add-ons… just more narrations, explanation, assumptions… in the name of ‘truth’. What do you find?

All the add-ons are superfluous. The narration and explanations obscure what is. And the I is just another thought, another addition that doesn’t point to anything in experience and like the rest of such thoughts, obscures truth.

Do you notice that the ideas that appear as thoughts are not the same as direct sense experience?

Yes, they muddy the water, making it hard to see things as they are.

That they are something extra that is added on to the immediate experience?

So much extra. Never has it seemed more true that less is more.

Is there a power over thoughts?

No power over them, only the possibility of giving them no power by not believing them.

Can you control thought?

No.

Can you stop having the thoughts of I/me/mine/my?

No, and vigilance isn’t necessary to stop the thoughts but to remember that they obscure truth, not reveal it. They are not to be believed.

Thank you Vivien,

Peri

[Vivien]

Hi Peri,

My apologies for overlooking questions once again. There’s resistance arising to this process, wanting to take a break for a day, catch my breath. Skipping questions is one of the ways that resistance is showing up.

If you want to, you can reply only every other day.
But also, it’s worth looking at resistance itself.

What is it that is being resisted? Could you please say more?

Is there a fear of a negative consequences to this investigation?

V: That they are something extra that is added on to the immediate experience?

P: So much extra. Never has it seemed more true that less is more.

Yes :) this is a nice insight.

No power over them, only the possibility of giving them no power by not believing them.

But giving no power to thoughts IS a belief in a power over thoughts. Can you see this?

Do you have power to not give power to thoughts?

Where is that power? Is there a switch or button hiding somewhere in the chest or the head? :)

Vivien

[0peri]

Hi Vivien,

What is it that is being resisted? Could you please say more?

Showing up and looking closely is being resisted. There’s a dawdling about before actually sitting down to look and respond, like there’s more friction en route.

Is there a fear of a negative consequences to this investigation?

Not that I’m aware of after doing a good look around, though it’s certainly possible.

But giving no power to thoughts IS a belief in a power over thoughts. Can you see this?

Awareness is present. Awareness doesn’t move. Thoughts move. Whatever I am is choiceless.

Do you have power to not give power to thoughts?

Thoughts do not have the power to bestow or deny power to other thoughts. Peri is a thought.

Where is that power? Is there a switch or button hiding somewhere in the chest or the head? :)

Awareness is the only power present and there is nowhere it is not. It does not go on and off, increase or decrease.

Peri

PS. Thanks for the 48 hours response time.

[Vivien]

Hi Peri,

Awareness is present. Awareness doesn’t move. Thoughts move. Whatever I am is choiceless.

What is aware? Is there a non-physical thing called awareness which is aware? Is this what experience show?
Is there something aware or there is only awaring?

Is there an awareness as something/entity/I doing the awaring/being aware or is there just awaring?

Is a thought something else than the awareness of it? Or the awareness of it IS the thought itself?

Whatever I am is choiceless.

So is there an I that could be choiceless?
How do you know that there is an I at all?

Can you find and I other than the word ‘I’ in a sentence/thought?

Is there an assumption perhaps, that “I am awareness”?

PS. Thanks for the 48 hours response time.

No problem. Please be thorough :)

Vivien

[0peri]

Hi Vivien,

What is aware?

Nothing is found

Is there a non-physical thing called awareness which is aware?

Definitely not.

Is this what experience show?

NO

Is there something aware or there is only awaring?

Only awaring/knowing/being

Is there an awareness as something/entity/I doing the awaring/being aware or is there just awaring?

Nothing is found, only awaring.

Is a thought something else than the awareness of it?

No, thoughts aren’t things, despite being experienced, they are not real and therefore not separate from awareness, more like a dream.

Or the awareness of it IS the thought itself?

True, thought isn’t other than awareness.

Whatever I am is choiceless.

So is there an I that could be choiceless?

There is no I that is choiceless, there is simply no choosing, just being.

How do you know that there is an I at all?

No evidence of an I is found, despite a thorough-going search.

Can you find and I other than the word ‘I’ in a sentence/thought?

No.

Is there an assumption perhaps, that “I am awareness”?

No longer. Thank you for these questions. Despite the appearance of typing on a computer with a cat in this lap, is it possible that nothing is happening to no one? Nothing has ever happened? Is stillness/being all that is? Is this present experience a mirage? What is real?

Peri

[Vivien]

Hi Peri,

V: Or the awareness of it IS the thought itself?

P: True, thought isn’t other than awareness.

How could a thought be only an awareness, if there is no such thing in reality as an awareness? There is only knowing/awaring, but not a non-physical thing…. And when there is a thought, that though clearly EXISTS, not the content, but the phenomenon itself. Can you see this?

What if it’s the other way around? That there is only the thought, but no awareness… since knowing is inherent in the thought itself?

Despite the appearance of typing on a computer with a cat in this lap, is it possible that nothing is happening to no one? Nothing has ever happened? Is stillness/being all that is? Is this present experience a mirage? What is real?
What would the present experience be the mirage?

What if what IS the present experience itself?

We are not going to a nihilistic state with the belief that nothing exists, everything is just a mirage, nothing real. That would be just another belief.

Experience IS. Existence IS. Life IS. Beingness IS.

We are not denying existence / experience.
What we are investigating if there is a separate self standing apart from life/experience/existence itself?

Vivien