Confused about self inquiry

[Danadd]

Thanks, I’ll take a look. 😄🙏🏻

[Vivien]

Hi Dana,

I talked to Ron who told me that you'd like to restart your investigation.

Could you please tell me where you are at the moment in terms of seeing that there is no separate self?

What is it that you are seeking exactly?

If you've found it, how would you recognize it (that this is it)?

What is missing?

Vivien

[Danadd]

Hi Vivien!
Thank you for agreeing to guide me!
In terms of seeing there is no separate self: I have small moments when it’s clear, where it feels like I’m looking at everything from a different POV and sort of from afar. And I don’t recognize what I thought was me. They are very small moments.
What I am seeking is seeing there is no separate self because I think a lot of the heartache and suffering that I go through is because I have this idea.
I think I’d recognize it from seeing there is no one controlling what’s happening.
I’m not sure what’s missing, I guess looking the right way.
I have memories from the last time that Ron guided me, and they are really strong ones where it was a sudden seeing like I described above.
I’m curious to see what I’ll find.
And I’m glad that this is something that I don’t need to believe in because I want the truth.
Thanks again,
Dana

[Vivien]

Thank you for your reply.

What I am seeking is seeing there is no separate self because I think a lot of the heartache and suffering that I go through is because I have this idea.

Well, unfortunately, it's not that simple. When there is any form of suffering (or any form of discontent), it’s not just because there is a belief in a self. Suffering happens when certain stimuli poke or touch our ‘wounds inside’. Those wounds are not a person/self. The self is just an added narrative.

The personality stays almost completely intact when the self is seen through (at least at the beginning). All the conditionings from childhood, all the traumas, all the gathered emotional pains won’t dissolve in an instant just because the self is seen through. These most likely will stay, however, they are much more accessible and easier to work with after seeing through the illusion. This is just the first step, just the beginning, and not the end. But it is the beginning of the falling away of conditionings, which can last until the end of the organism.

I think I’d recognize it from seeing there is no one controlling what’s happening.

Ok, let's start here.

Please spend a whole day noticing any signs of control.... really look, what is it that you have control over?

Please list everything you can control. Make sure that you don't just think it through, but actually investigate that particular thing.

V

[Danadd]

Hi Vivien,
I tried to spend the day noticing what I have control over.
It was a pretty challenging to try to keep it in mind the whole day, I think in general more specific exercises that I dedicate a certain amount of time to work better for me. But this is what I came up with:
It seems that I have control over my body. For example I tested it and had a thought: I’m going to raise my finger in 3, 2, 1. And then I raised it. It wouldn’t have risen without the thought and decision.
Also more generally I have control over my body for example I have a thought that I want to shave my legs, so I take the razor and start making the movements. While I’m shaving it starts to be automatic, and I’m thinking of something else and my hands keep moving. But when I want to stop, I stop. So I have control.
And I also have some control over thoughts. Same thing, like if I decide to think of an elephant, my next thought will be an elephant as a result of the thought before.
It seems that some thoughts just pop into my head and some are there as a result of the thought before like with the elephant example.
Hope you have a good day,
Dana

[Vivien]

And I also have some control over thoughts. Same thing, like if I decide to think of an elephant, my next thought will be an elephant as a result of the thought before.

Let's look into this.

Focus very closely on HOW you decide what to think about.
So just sit, do nothing, and then suddenly make a decision what you want to think about.
Zoom very closely onto the decision making process.
HOw do you do it?
How do you decide what to think about?
Where do you get the idea from?
If that idea comes from somewhere, where does it coming from?
Is there a place you go to where all the unlimited number of ideas are stored, and you chose and pick which one you want to think about?

Are you sure that you are the one coming up with the idea, with that thought?
Or... rather a thought of an idea just pops up by itself?

Do you actually do anything for a thought of decision to arrive? Or it just happens automatically, without you actually doing anything?

V

[Danadd]

Hi Vivien,
I am trying to reply at the end of each day to your message but I feel like I want to try this out a bit more tomorrow and then come back with a response :)
So in general if I am taking a bit longer to respond, I’m still on it it’s just that I want to give it some more attention.
Dana

[Vivien]

That's good, thank you. As long as you are actually investigating, it's ok not to respond daily. We ask for daily replies only to not lose contact with the inquiry :)

[Danadd]

Yes, of course. Thanks.
Okay so my conclusion is indeed, the thought just pops up. Almost randomly. I tried doing “I want to think of…” and then seeing what comes. Each time a different animal popped up, and then a leaf, a willow tree, etc. they do seem somewhat connected but I didn’t actually pick them, they just popped up. It’s pretty cool.
Dana

[Vivien]

Great! Please spend another day with it. Seeing this very clearly is crucial.

Is there ANY moment when you think a thought and it doesn't just happen on its own? Any moment? Or any thought?

V

[Danadd]

So I am noticing that I’m just laying down, closing my eyes and trying not to do anything like you said. I was concentrating on the sound of the fan.
Then a thought popped in my head of “I’m going to think of…” and then i tried it out and another thoughts popped in my head of “I’m going to think this sentence 5 times”. And then I repeated the sentence “I’m going to think of…” 5 times. So in this case for example, the five times I repeated it were controlled or I guess caused by the fact that I decided to think them.
Another example, I decided I’d now think of a leaf and then I thought of a leaf. So I do have control.

[Vivien]

And then I repeated the sentence “I’m going to think of…” 5 times. So in this case for example, the five times I repeated it were controlled or I guess caused by the fact that I decided to think them.
Another example, I decided I’d now think of a leaf and then I thought of a leaf. So I do have control.

Ok, we need a laser focus here.

HOW do you make the decision to decide on a leaf or whatever?

And HOW do you bring that thought or image of the leaf up? What do you DO for the image of the leaf (or any chosen object) to come up?

When there is a decision to repeat something 5 times, HOW do you MAKE the repetition happen? HOW do you DO it?

Please focus on the words in capital letters. On HOW do you DO it?

V

[Danadd]

I’m having a bit of trouble focusing, I’m really trying but maybe it’s because of my general situation which is a bit stressful rn.
But what I do see when I’m able to focus is that it really just pops up by itself. Sometimes I say “im going to think of…” and then the word “ant” popped in my mind. I wasn’t planning on thinking of an ant but it just appeared.
In terms of deciding to think of a word 5 times, it seems like it’s influenced by my decision but the decision and the repetition occur spontaneously. Like, the repetition of it isn’t like I make something happen the same way that I grab a pen. But it does have a sense of control because of the decision before I just can’t really find it.

[Vivien]

Sometimes I say “im going to think of…” and then the word “ant” popped in my mind.

Let's go a step backward. It's not just whether you think of the ant, but are you thinking the thought "II"m going to think..."?
Are you even doing that?
Are you even the one deciding WHEN to start doing the exercise?

so it's not just if if ants appear in your mind :), but rather the decision prior even to do this, even "Let's think about..." or "let's see if I think....".

What do you find?

[Danadd]

Nope, it seems like that thought just appears. For some reason there’s more of a sense of “me doing it” but when I look at it they just come up.