Confused about self inquiry

[Danadd]

Hey Ron,
Thanks for our talk yesterday.
You told me that “believing” in a thought is when it is all you are during the thought (sort of). When all your attention is the thought and it sort of becomes you, and while you’re in it you don’t know you’re in it, only afterwards.
This is the way I live most of the time. Looking is when there’s a thought but it’s not “believed” rather watched. (I think).
The question I’m facing now is how to look throughout the day while there are distractions.
Or in general how to continue the inquiry. If I can’t do what I said above, maybe I can do it for a certain time each day, like the exercises you gave me in the beginning.
If yes, what exercises should I continue with in your opinion? The ones you gave me before?
Are you familiar with the “surrender” technique of Ramana Maharishi? Do you think it’s good and if yes how to do it?
Dana :-)

[Ronaldo]

Hi Dana,

You're welcome, I hope it was of some value.

You told me that “believing” in a thought is when it is all you are during the thought (sort of). When all your attention is the thought and it sort of becomes you, and while you’re in it you don’t know you’re in it, only afterwards.
This is the way I live most of the time. Looking is when there’s a thought but it’s not “believed” rather watched. (I think).

Attention shifts all the time, doesn't it? sights, sounds, thoughts, smells etc. Have you ever read a paragraph while thinking about something else? Reading kept going, but you can't even recall what you just read - attention was on the stream of thoughts. Try looking very carefully at an object, and then listening to something very carefully at the same time - an interesting experiment, what happens?

In my experience thought are quite short, and it's the gaps that play a major role. When there's a belief, or zooming into the thoughts, it's the lack of gaps, which seems like a long movie. If you add to that any body sensations - emotions, you have a real nice simulation of reality going on.
Try this:
Bring up a thought that causes you some emotion, something you can handle with ease. What else comes up with that thought? Where can you feel it? See how this adds "power" or "weight" to the thought? Are there other thoughts labeling the sensation?

So - the key here is to insert as many moments in your day where attention shifts from thoughts to direct experience - sense perception. As I told you before, make new habits, use any daily routine to practice direct experience throughout the day: simply color/image, sound, smell, taste, sensation, thought.

So for example, when having breakfast, become aware of:-
Seeing a cup, simply= image/color
Smelling coffee, simply = smell
Feeling the warmth of the coffee cup, simply = sensation
Tasting the coffee, simply = taste
Hearing the spoon stirring the coffee, simply = sound
Thought about drinking the coffee, simply = thought
Just break down daily activities into these categories (which are all actual/direct experience).

The other option (switch doing both) is not to go into the labeling game, but focusing on the DE for as long as it does, getting curious about how things are when there is no label and no thought - what does the cup look like if pay absolute attention to it, but without thinking about it? Can you hear a sound without the analysis that tells you where it's coming from, and what makes it? Can you separate what is seen and heard from what the interpretation does?

Lots of options and things to do - if you do these, you will start to notice many things.

I never followed the teachings of Ramana Maharishi, so I cannot offer any advice on that. From the perspective of a separate self entity, there is a need for surrender, for letting go, and it feels very real, you will know when it is needed - if it's needed, I don't think you can fake it and make it happen. From the perspective of reality, there is no surrender, there is nobody to surrender, how can an imaginary character surrender? That's just thought content and another story about surrender...

Regards
Ron

[Danadd]

Try looking very carefully at an object, and then listening to something very carefully at the same time - an interesting experiment, what happens

I can’t. My attention can only be on one thing at a time.

Try this:
Bring up a thought that causes you some emotion, something you can handle with ease. What else comes up with that thought? Where can you feel it? See how this adds "power" or "weight" to the thought? Are there other thoughts labeling the sensation?

Yes, I see how it pulls my attention in.
I don’t notice it easily, but yes I think you’re right, there’s labeling going on. Positive or negative, mostly.

Thought about drinking the coffee, simply = thought

how do I do this without “believing” or being “in” the thought, instead watching it/DE-ing it?

The other option (switch doing both) is not to go into the labeling game, but focusing on the DE for as long as it does

by labeling game do you mean when you said “sensation” or “sound” etc? Because otherwise I don’t understand the difference between this exercise and the last one.

Dana

[Ronaldo]

Hi Dana,
You need to spend time with these for a while, so please investigate these things, there is value in repetition, making sure you experience them rather than think about them.

how do I do this without “believing” or being “in” the thought, instead watching it/DE-ing it?

It's a short thought that carries no weight so to speak, "mmmm good coffee" is not a ver personal thought and you can notice it almost as soon as it occurs. Practice and test it.

Yes, labeling is helpful to just get the lingo right - what is meant by DE. Once this is clear there's no real value in keeping this game on, switch to observing that which is DE - sense perceptions, real experience.

regards,
Ron

[Danadd]

Hi Ron,
I am having trouble with what direction I should take now with the inquiry. Like, what to inquire?
I think that still the thing I’m confused about/don’t see clearly is choice. It seems like I have one.
I do see, I think, the fact that thoughts aren’t real. And also what you said about, why do I believe this is my body? It’s starting to sink in.
Let me know how you think I should continue.
Also, sometimes there are thoughts that pop up and I notice that they’re very random and “I” didn’t choose them. But when I’m thinking and the thoughts are sequenced it’s harder for me to recognize that they just pop up. Maybe because I’m not looking, but rather “believe” them.

~Dana :-)

[Ronaldo]

Hi Dana,
This process is a bit like learning to ride a bicycle, I can show you how I ride it, I can explain what you have to do, but you'll never learn unless you get on it, try and try and fall and try again. Can you explain to someone how to keep a balance on the bike and they will just do it? It's utterly impossible, right? I gave you pointers and I will try to see if I can come up with better or just different ones, but you have the tools - Direct Experience, AKA Looking:

1) Looking is always done right now, at this very moment, e.g. it cannot be based on memory (a memory is a thought).
2) it’s being aware of sound, taste, smell, sensation and colors (images) to see what is really present - actual experience.
3) In addition to these sense perceptions, we are also noticing thoughts - not thinking, but noticing all thoughts as they appear. Thought content will pull you away from looking directly, but by continuous and steady looking you will inevitably unveil the trick they play in creating the illusion of an "I".

When you are experiencing the content of thoughts, there is the thought content, an imagined reality. That is why this inquiry can never ever be achieved via thinking and learning, and that is why the long and winding spiritual seeking effort is mostly futile.

Thinking will not help you realize what the self is, you have to look and experience everything directly.
There is simply no way of thinking that can take you beyond thinking


There is no point in moving forward before you clearly see that there is no thinker of thoughts, no chooser of things, and no doer of things.

Your replies indicate that you have and do see it all the time, and yet you refuse to accept it... you cannot choose thoughts, you cannot decide what thought will come next, you cannot stop thoughts, cannot have only pleasant thoughts, but because a thought tells you you are going to pick up a glass, and then you do - you believe it and doubt all the body of direct experiments that shows you that it's an illusion, there is no link between the though appearing and the action taking place. Ride the bike, look at these again, do each one many times:

- what will be your next thought?
- create a new thought (what do you do other than Wait for something to show up?)
- stop thinking for 1 minute
- only have thoughts about a pink elephant for 1 minute
- don't think about a red apple for 1 minute
- have only pleasant thoughts for 2 minute
- think of a color - did you select it?
Are you the thinker? Is there any real control here other than thoughts saying so?
This is (or should be) absolutely amazing to realize.


Choice is another biggie, let's assume for a moment that choice is only what thought is chosen, "coffee" or "tea"? Here try Rupert, maybe he will be more clear :)
https://youtu.be/V560v1eQJzA?t=56

Same with how the body moves - you've seen it again and again, you see no control, no doing, things happen and moving if you think about them or don't, if there is "intention" or not, but you can't accept it because the thought "I am getting out of bed" tells you this is what caused the body to get out of bed. Try it, see how the thought and the moment are not connected, nothing but action happening and thought happening.
Relax when you watch, don't be "in your mind", let things take their course and watch them carefully, do not start with thinking and expecting to see anything at all.


So before this is clear, we cannot move to other topics, it simply cannot be received.

Regards
Ron

[Danadd]

Okay, thanks for the summary and organization of it all. I’ll work on it and update you.
Dana :)

[Ronaldo]

Hi Dana,
As you continue with the previous post, I have few more things that I thought may help.

In the total experience that unfolds every day, don't expect to never be inside thought stories, don't expect that you will not often or even most of the time seem to be the thinker and doer.

The illusion will continue to appear as it has always appeared, it's not a bad sign that you are still "in your head" most of the day. The point is, that at any time when awareness of your inquiry pops up, anytime a realization occurs and you're pulled out of the story of Dana, even for a moment - can you pause, look and see what is real and what is fictional? What is the simple perceptions and what is just added story and added narration?
Am I here because I decided to be here?
Is this body acting on it's own, or is it controlled?
Are these thoughts always correct, meaningful?
Am I doing anything at all to be, see, hear, feel, have thoughts? Is there choice at all there?

That story of Dana is very much like watching a movie or reading an engaging book. Did you ever walk out of a theater and felt like you were the hero? For maybe a couple of hours you were the watcher of a fake persona life and identification took place. It's just far deeper with the movie called Dana, and it comes with thought and sensations that are considered "mine", "my body".

What makes that Dana seem so real?
Not the thinker, not the doer...
You close your eyes and look - is there an entity there?
What do you find? Look closely, just like you are looking for a mosquito in a dimmed room, acute attention to any noise, sensation, visual clue. Thought come, grab attention and fall, what's left? What is there that is a self?
What feels like "me"?

Let me know what you find.
Ron

[Danadd]

Hi Ron,
Thanks. I’ll try.
I I now took specific time and meditated and then looked and it feels a little bit clearer. I saw that my thoughts are just popping up. I did this: thought of a fruit, then described it’s different elements (the pit, the peel, the meat, etc.) and saw how each of the elements of it just pop up, I don’t decide which one comes next.
I also saw that when I said “I’m gonna stop the next thought in the middle” then it did stop mid thought but I didn’t decide when, it just stopped.
I think I’ll take it one step at a time: first see how I don’t control thoughts, then choices, then actions.

Have a great day,
Dana

[Ronaldo]

This is great, keep up the good work!
Enjoy the lockdown..

[Ronaldo]

Hi Dana,
I hope you're able to keep looking through your day. I thought you might find it helpful to go through a few more exercises, to keep the momentum going. Please do them with curiosity afresh.

Are you the chooser/doer? This one is simple:
1. Place both hands on a table in front of you, palms down.
2. When you have done that, rest for a moment and then raise one hand in the air but not the other.

Don't go to thoughts, examine your direct experience. Do this as many times as you like, and each time inquire:-

What is it exactly that is choosing which hand to raise?
Can you find a separate individual or anything that is doing the choosing?
What is it that is controlling the hand?
Can a ‘controller’ of any description be located?
Can anything be found that makes the hand move?
How is the decision made?


This one is a bit more involved, so have sufficient time and patience to do this, it can get pretty deep if you pay close attention to what is simply taking place in experience.

Please put some chocolate/cake (or something you like, but think you shouldn’t eat or drink) in front of you. Look at it. Inspect it closely. Smell its delicious fragrance. And pay attention to emerging desire to eat it.

When the desire is there, pay close attention to the thought process.
See how thoughts list pros and cons why you should or shouldn’t eat the chocolate (or whatever).
These opposing thoughts might even try to argue or convince each other what to decide.

What is it that is considering these options?
Is there anything that is listing the pros and cons, or only just thoughts appear about pros and cons?
– look very carefully

Now, make a decision, but whatever you decide, don’t eat the chocolate (yet). Rather just pay very close attention when the decision is made. Particularly pay attention to thoughts, as the decision is made.

Let’s say a thought appear: “I decided not to eat the chocolate”
So the thought about the decision just appeared. What made that thought appear?
Can you find the thing that made that decision, apart from the presence of the thought about the decision?
How exactly the decision is made?

Now, act according to the decision. (Either eat or don’t eat the chocolate.)
What is it that performed the chosen action?

Let me know what you find
Ron

[Danadd]

Hi Ron,
I appreciate you sticking with me and sending me exercises!
The first one:
At first, it seemed that my thoughts controlled my hands. Both of my hands were on the table, then a thought would pop up “right hand” and then I’d raise it. After a little while I started playing with it, tried to raise them a few times in a row, or do some other movements and then I saw clearly that they moved by themselves, with no thoughts telling them to do so. It was pretty amazing to see that.
Still though, I don’t think thoughts control the movement, but I think they do influence some movements, because when I thought “right hand” the right hand would come up. Or if I have a thought now to get up from the bed, maybe I’m debating in my head if I wanna go to the bathroom or not and the decision to go comes up, then I get up, this wouldn’t have happened if I hadn’t had these thoughts. So some actions are influenced by thoughts is my conclusion. What do you think?

Second exercise:
I think I clearly saw that the thoughts just came in by themselves, and even the decision to eat the chocolate just popped up. No one decided it. Also the moment my hand moved to put the chocolate in my mouth was random and there wasn’t a thought before it saying it will now move.

So when I inspected these things it seems like I see it, but maybe I need some more time for it to sink in.

Sincerely,
Dana

[Ronaldo]

Hi Dana,
When you look at action, you mostly find both the action taking place, and thought coming and claiming ownership. Yet sometimes there is thought proceeding the action. Yes, this is ok, we're not denying this, but the question is - is there a link between the thought and the action? See, if the thought is the trigger for the action it should always be the case (just logic), but using this tool of direct experience, we can only know for sure what is real, and the thought content is not real.
Can a thought do anything? Does a thought know anything?
Does the thought "apple" know what an apple is?
Is there a link to be found between the thought "raise right hand" and the action?

There is reason for each specific question, I know it seems redundant sometimes and your free form description is valuable too, but I'd like to ask you to repeat the exercises, pause at each question and look, then answer from direct experience and not go to thought analysis. Really stick with it, look at the hand (1st exercise) think - "raise left hand" and watch, does that cause the hand to rise? Does it always? What does raise the hand if you cannot find such link?
These questions above are rhetorical, pointing questions, that you need to look into, the ones I give in blue are the ones I'd like you to reply to specifically.

Thanks and regards,
Ron

[Danadd]

Hey :-)
Just letting you know, still working on it.
Have a great day,
Dana

[Ronaldo]

Hello stranger 😁
OK, thanks for letting me know.
You know I asked you to not engage in other teachings during our investigation here because it will likely only add confusion, but one source of information could be helpful. This is the blog of my dear colleague Vivien, you might find this helpful to read these 5 short items:

For the seeker who cannot trust his immediate experience
How do I ignore thoughts?
How to be present?
Noticing that there is no separate self can only ever happen right here now
All words are symbols

see her blog here https://fadingveiling.com/author/faidingveiling/

I hope you'll find it helpful,
Regards
Ron