Ready to pop...guidance welcome!

[Scott1968]

Somehow there is a sense of being on the cusp or at the gate, or like a person standing on cliff's edge with a bungee cord and just needs that last push...through to clarity.

And to see through the concept of a real separate self that has never existed to begin with. This is understood and "accepted" intellectually. There have even been moments of awareness of this...laughter, a brief sense of...relief and joy. But right now, honestly, it's more of a belief than something known, or seen. Something that is more faith based than seeing/knowing based.

It's the difference between believing Santa doesn't exist and knowing Santa doesn't exist.

And everyday experience suggests a contracted self "hanging on" if you will. Mental chatter..."Why that so and so...did he insult ME!?..."I feel good/bad about that"...etc. Plus, the need to be "right" to justify the self, to protect the perceived self.

Would gratefully appreciate guidance in seeing through to the truth of no persona/self/ego/person.

sincerely,
Scott

[Patrick]

Thanks for your introduction.

What is direct experience ?
Give an example from direct experience.
What is the part of the thoughts and feelings in this direct experience?

[Scott1968]

Thank you for jumping in to assist.

What is direct experience? It is just "this-ness"; the pure apprehension of life. It is knowing that is un-mediated by thoughts and concepts...awareness of life as it is.

an example...picking up a cup to sip water...I could add descriptors, but that is just adding on thoughts and concepts...even talking about it, makes it into a concept because reflection is taking place in the mind.

The thoughts and feelings in this experience...they seem to be "added on" to the simple act of picking up a cup and sipping water. It's not like a thought arises..."I will now pick up the cup, move it to my lips, sip and swallow the water." This just happens on its own and then the thoughts sort of fill in the gap, and reflect upon this doing...and turn it into an "I" thing...the "I" ownership of the action and thoughts.

The feeling is just one of simple pleasure of drinking...

But as I do this exercise you have requested, there is a ego presence here...the one that feels he is taking a test and must answer correctly, according to the accumulated nonduality knowledge. I'm trying to answer honestly and not just parrot back what I think are correct answers...and this is the frustration.

I can feel the truth is right there! The seeing is right there...or here! But what is this damn ego thing that keeps arising!?

[Pathfinder]

You create a good description of the state but it is purely intellectual. The understanding is fine but it won't get you anywhere. It's time to start looking directly at your experience of life and ask questions.

Look at your memories and try to find this person called Scott. Where is he?

[Pathfinder]

Scott, it looks like I managed to stumble into the wrong thread last night ;). I was a bit tired!

Please answer regardless and continue with Patrick.

[Patrick]

Hi Scott,

Let's continue with your answer.

See when the I, the me or the sense of self thoughts and feelings come in after the direct experience.
See how a ‘I’ story is build from this thoughts and feelings.
Don’t believe the story, it are just thoughts and feelings coming and going.
Just see for what they are, don’t try to change anything.

See also the difference between the character, the role player in life and the personality.

The character is the player of the role with the body, with likes and dislikes, talents, abilities and inabilities. This character is playing his role in life as life. It’s the way life is.

The personal identity has been created since childhood to conform to the society.
The personality wants always something else, wants constantly to improve or to change, expecting more from life.

See that live happens, no you there to change anything.
What are you?

[Scott1968]

Thank you Patrick.

"See when the I, the me or the sense of self thoughts and feelings come in after the direct experience.
See how a ‘I’ story is build from this thoughts and feelings.
Don’t believe the story, it are just thoughts and feelings coming and going.
Just see for what they are, don’t try to change anything."

There is just the direct experience...the hearing the bird, the seeing the sky, etc...and then the mind comes in and puts on labels and begins to explain and contextualize and create stories...YES! I do see that.

It seems "I" don't even have control over any thoughts at all...they just arise, usually in response to an apparent stimulus, sometimes just "out of the blue" as in "why am I having these thoughts? Where do they come from? There is no I that ever thought a thought. A thought just arises, comes and goes. I understand that if all my language and concepts disappeared this instant, awareness would still be here...


"Don't try to change anything."

And yet, there is a sense of a "controller" or a somebody that SHOULD be controlling the thoughts, managing them, ordering them, having good thoughts and not bad thoughts.
And, once in control of thoughts, then controlling behavior.

The personal identity has been created since childhood to conform to the society.
The personality wants always something else, wants constantly to improve or to change, expecting more from life. See that live happens, no you there to change anything.What are you?

The personality does want more, I guess, in this case a confirmation of no self or no "I" or "me" beyond an intellectual grasp of it! To be honest, I want an "experience" that says, "Yes! This is it!"

What is the way to penetrate beyond belief and into the knowing? I'm at belief. I'm looking, it's making sense. Making sense to whom? What is being missed!?

[Patrick]

once in control of thoughts, then controlling behavior
This are also thoughts just telling a story about an illusionary controller.
See that this believe in a controller is made of thoughts and feelings.
Seeing this directly is knowing directly that their content is not real.

The personality is an intermingled bunch of thoughts, feelings and sensations.
It doesn’t exist on its own. See this and it disappears as idea.
Only the character continues playing life.

Making sense to whom?
Really look at this, where is there a you? What are you?
Look, look and look again until this is completely clear.
Don’t guess or speculate, don’t create another story.

[Scott1968]

Thank you, Patrick.

Making sense to whom?
Really look at this, where is there a you? What are you?
Look, look and look again until this is completely clear.
Don’t guess or speculate, don’t create another story.

OK, this is going to be looked at...where is the me/I ?

I'm having that feeling of bumping into and off of the truth...chuckling as if...yes! Here it is...a glimpse and then the seeing is lost...

What is the effort involved? It's almost as if I'm straining to see my own hand in front of my face! There is a sense of "getting something" of an expectation of attaining liberation...a clear realization experience.

Who is there to have such an experience?

I will look...

[Scott1968]

I can't seem to find a "me"...

the only thing that comes is an intellectual explanation like this:

The "I" is simply phenomenon of a brain, neurons firing, perceptions coming in, being ordered by the brain and then come outputs in behavior. All of this structured or determined by DNA...the likes, dislikes, preferences, abilities, inabilities, etc.

The "I" is just a construct...that is then conditioned by apparent external happenings and internal thinking.

What is thinking? Mostly just learned words popping up and transiting through the mind. They come mostly in response to stimuli.

There is no control over what thoughts arise. It's as though this life form, Scott, is a sort of programmed biological machine. Where was "I" before conception? Where was I after conception and cells began dividing? Where was I after being born? The "I" came later. And ever since the false "I" came into the picture, it has just habitually been added to over the years with every "I thought" adding a new layer.

The I/Me seems all based on an assumption everyone makes that there is a personal "I".

There just is this being, or lifeform, called Scott, an expression of life. The "I" or Controller is a total fallacy. And yet it does not go easily into that good night.

There is a feeling of lightening. Yet it is not seen deeply. Must look...focusing is...hard...distractions flying in fast and furious as if to say..."Don't look! Don't look!"

[Patrick]

There is no I, no me, no you ever there.

Just seeing, noticing what is happening, relaxing as what is. Life is.

How feels this?

[Scott1968]

sorry been gone for a couple of days, Patrick.

Thanks for your patience and guidance.

I believe I've seen it, feel "I" have seen that there is no "I". A relaxation has occurred, a sense of just flowing with life as it is now...not getting caught up in the "I-ness" but knowing there just thoughts, just like any other thoughts, part of the "system programming" if you will.

There is no "I" and no "I/me/Scott" ever existed as a separate piece of life that controls and runs itself. Scott is just an expression of life flowing in this form with all its proclivities, abilities, inabilities, etc.

There are still conditionings that come up...ways that "I" or Scott has been conditioned to react in given scenarios...but the stickiness of "ownership" is going. There is no Scott/me that owns or runs anything.

There was no big firework display or trumpets...just an understanding that dawned, like a sun rising. It came slowly, but inexorably and is, to use a metaphor, just above the horizon...

What now? Just go with the flow?

[Patrick]

Just go with the flow?
Is there something else you can do?

What would now happen when somebody behaves rudely to you?
If you get sad or angry - what is it that happens?
What about taking decisions, who is taking them?

[Scott1968]

bummer, I just replied, but the reply was lost somehow.

To summarize, the 2nd part of your query...What would happen if somebody behaves rudely? If you get sad or angry, what is it that happens?

Well, let's use tonight as an example. My wife comes to me and asks me to do something about our son using up too much water in the shower....

So, "I" annoyed, irritated, go and give him some strong verbal encouragment to stop wasting water and hurry up!

I also got annoyed about some political stuff, this being an election year in the U.S.

"I" thinks "I" shouldn't be so reactive..but just "go with the flow" and somehow be at peace no matter what....imperturbable. And, there is less perturbation than before...much less it appears.

Yet still, some is there. What is happening when "I" is annoyed or "angry". A feeling arises, sometimes followed by physical or mental activity or behavior (mental dialogue and physical acting out...verbal expressions of annoyance).

"I" guess that there is this idea that in seeing there is no "I" or person, that one should never be perturbed...

the best that can be said is that feelings labled anger and expressions labled anger are manifesting...and they are labeled "bad" or "negative" and shouldn't be there.

But those are value judgments made by whom? The false "I".

I'm not fully seeing it...I couldn't say this if I were seeing it, the TRUTH, that is, of no person, no separate entity.

I cannot see what is not there...because there is no "I" to see what is not there.

Aaaacchhh! What do "I" need to look at to realize there is no "I" ?????

How can that which doesn't exist (the I), even look at anything at all?

If YOU say LOOK DEEPER...........WHO is HERE to do the looking?

[Patrick]

Notice that all ideas about a self are just ideas, not real.
‘You’ can’t realize ‘no I’.
Don’t search to replace the idea of an ‘I’ by the idea of a ‘no I’.
‘No I’ is just a pointer.
Drop all the thinking about this, notice directly what is real and what is not real.