Confused about self inquiry

[Danadd]

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
I understand that your mission is to help people see beyond the illusion that “I” am a person, with a name, family, story, problems, etc. and actually realize that this “I” is a concept and is not really
me. That who I truly am is awareness which has always been aware to this idea of a separate self.

What are you looking for at LU?
I’ve been watching videos about this topic and reading about it and understand it intellectually but I feel lost as to how to actually practice and get to this realization. I also feel very alone, that I have so many questions that keep popping up and I have no one to ask. Mostly, I’m looking for people who I can get guidance from, who have already succeeded with this and can help me start with self inquiry and unstuck in this practice.
The questions I have are regarding, most importantly, how to practice self inquiry because I feel that I just don’t get it.
Others are about quieting my mind, and others methods that will help with self inquiry. For example which things will help with that and if this is even important for the practice.
More are regarding the theory behind this, like the nature of thoughts and awareness, etc.
But mainly it is about getting help in how to practice self inquiry/ get to this realization of seeing there is no seperate self.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
I expect the guide in the conversation to explain to me how to guide my attention to the place it is supposed to go in order to realize there isn’t a seperate self and stay with that realization. How to get unstuck in thought. And help me understand the technique so I can do it on my own any time I want and practice it.
Also preferably to answer some other questions that I mentioned above.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
I have been practicing meditation on and off, have been into Reality Transurfing (like LOA sort of) and in the last few months heard about self inquiry and Ramana Maharshi’s teachings. Since then I’ve been trying to figure out how to practice it.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self?
10

[Ronaldo]

Hello and welcome to Liberation Unleashed 😃
My name is Ron and I can guide you through your inquiry.

I will be asking you lots of questions and at times providing you with some exercise, depicting simple day to day situations - that’s my job. You will be asked to look at each question many times during your day. This inquiry can only succeed if you are committed and genuinely curious, please post daily, if you need more time, or cannot post, just let me know.
For the duration of this inquiry, please let go of books, youtube videos etc. related to enlightenment or spirituality, it can only add confusion.

I will not be teaching you anything, and you don’t need to believe anything I say, quite the contrary, you have to verify everything I point to experimentally.
Agreed?

...most importantly, how to practice self inquiry because I feel that I just don’t get it.

Here we refer to self inquiry as “looking”, and I will point you in the right direction once we start the inquiry.

I have been practicing meditation on and off, have been into Reality Transurfing

I did a quick googling for this method, and what came up is that “In a nutshell, Transurfing is a model of seeing and controlling the world.”. That is a pretty assuming technique….
What if what you’ll find here is that reality is just the opposite of that? That there is no control and no free will?


Before we start the investigation, could you tell me:
What are you actually looking for?
What are you hoping would change?



P.S. please use the

quote function

around my questions when answering,
You simply cut/paste my questions into your text, select the text and click the “Quote" button above the text edit field
For a demo see https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-fAToDNh9hQ

Thanks
Ron

[Danadd]

Hi Ron! 😄

Thank you for responding so soon and in general for helping me.

Agreed?

Absolutely!

I did a quick googling for this method, and what came up is that “In a nutshell, Transurfing is a model of seeing and controlling the world.”. That is a pretty assuming technique….
What if what you’ll find here is that reality is just the opposite of that? That there is no control and no free will?

Yes, I was into it for a while and found it wasn’t working and was too hard. Then I heard about this and it makes much more sense.

Before we start the investigation, could you tell me:
What are you actually looking for?
What are you hoping would change?

I’m looking for the realization, a deep experiential understanding (and not just intellectual) of the truth, of the fact that me as a separate person doesn’t exist. And after this realization, living from this understanding. Guiding my life and actions and experiencing life from this understating.
Right now I’m at the stage where I think I understand it intellectually but not experientially. I don’t know how to point my attention to come to this understanding. I’m hoping that I’ll know how to do this. I hope this is clear enough and I’m sorry if i have trouble explaining myself.

Also, can I ask you questions besides ones regarding the inquiry itself? And will our session be like this (messages) or will it be on the phone?

~Dana

[Ronaldo]

Hi Dana,
It's a pleasure to virtually meet you 😎

Thank you for responding so soon and in general for helping me.

My pleasure!

I’m looking for the realization, a deep experiential understanding (and not just intellectual) of the truth, of the fact that me as a separate person doesn’t exist.

That's why we're here, yes.

And after this realization, living from this understanding. Guiding my life and actions and experiencing life from this understating.

How could an imagined self guide life or do anything at all? Would it be ok with letting life just be?

Right now I’m at the stage where I think I understand it intellectually but not experientially. I don’t know how to point my attention to come to this understanding. I’m hoping that I’ll know how to do this. I hope this is clear enough and I’m sorry if i have trouble explaining myself.

As you noted, an intellectual understanding is not sufficient, nothing really makes sense and it's just not satisfying, no matter how hard you try. Of course not, you are trying to make sense of what is using the tool that fools you - thoughts. You'll always go round in circles with thoughts and the stories they tell. Does that make sense intellectually?

You are doing a great job explaining yourself, I've been there and I know what you're talking about. As much as you can, try to let go of expectations and "trying", best to approach this not as a goal but as a journey, as said in the Tao Te Ching –
A good traveler has no fixed plans and is not intent upon arriving.

Also, can I ask you questions besides ones regarding the inquiry itself? And will our session be like this (messages) or will it be on the phone?

In general, we're going to have a conversation right here in this forum, I will be posing some questions, and helping you where I can, but I can't show you, I can point and you have to do the hard work of looking. If at some point a call will be helpful, it's not impossible ☺️

Let's begin.
Unlike learning where you build an understanding through thinking and reasoning, here we are Looking, and looking is really simple, yet not so simple, we spent most of our lives learning by thinking, so it would help to clarify this point.
1) Looking is always done right now, at this very moment.
2) it’s being aware of sound, taste, smell, sensation and colors (images) to see what is really present - actual experience.
3) In addition to these sense perceptions, we are also noticing thoughts - not thinking, but noticing all thoughts as they appear. Thought content will pull you away from looking directly (you know that very well), but by continuous and steady looking you will inevitably unveil the trick they play in creating the illusion of an "I".

When you are experiencing the content of thoughts, there can be no looking, there is the thought content, an imagined reality. That is why this inquiry can never ever be achieved via thinking and learning, and that is why the long and winding spiritual seeking effort is mostly futile. So just as you do in meditation, you notice you've just been experiencing the content of a thought, you don't condemn yourself (another thought), but just get back to looking at what IS.

Do you notice any resistance to what I've said above?

I'd like you to sit quietly for 10 minutes or so, and list everything that appears right now in your experience, just note everything that appears, write it down and let me know what you find.


Regards,
Ron

[Danadd]

I assume we are in different time zones, so know that if I don’t reply so quickly it’s probably because it’s night time for me :)

[Ronaldo]

Sure, not a problem, I would usually answer when you're already asleep, so you'll have the whole day. Works perfect.

[Danadd]

Awesome. Also, will it be okay if we start the session in day? Tomorrow I have an extremely busy day and after that not. I just thought it would take you a few days to respond 😅
I don’t want you to think this isn’t important to me because it truly is.

[Ronaldo]

Thanks for letting me know - no problem, I'll be here when you're ready.
Ron

[Danadd]

Hey Ron,
I just did the exercise. I had many thoughts, most of them probably, about the practice itself. There was narration all the time about what was going on, and then narration about the fact that I just narrated that, and then about that, etc. Also a lot of noticing and planning what I’m going to write here to you when I write about what I experienced. There was some pondering about random things but not too much, mostly thoughts about the actual experience. The first thought that popped up about the experience didn’t seem to come from me, but the ones following it, the thoughts about the thought, did seem to be mine. That’s what it felt like.
When I noticed I was thinking I didn’t try to stop it but I tried to disengage. The term “looking” helped with that.
But it was very hard to keep just “looking”. For example, I was experiencing a song playing in my head. That was easy to just look at, as if from afar, to just notice it being there and not identify. But then a thought about it came “I’m aware of this song playing” and many tiny thoughts about the current experience that I only later realize were there and I don’t realize I’m thinking them at the moment. It is hard to just look at them because they seem to be mine.
I also noticed in my experience the sensations in my body, the feeling of having a body. And sight and sounds.
I also did it a few hours ago but I was very tired and noticed it was much harder to “look” and not get entangled in thoughts when I was tired.

I have a question: Do you think a person needs to be “ready” in order to realize there is no separate self? If yes, in what way? What about relative mental quietness?

Thank you and hope you have a great day,
Dana

[Ronaldo]

Hi Dana,

I'll start with your question so that we can focus after that.

Do you think a person needs to be “ready” in order to realize there is no separate self? If yes, in what way? What about relative mental quietness?

I'll give you my very personal take. The vast majority of people don't even try, they don't know that they are in a dream state and they live life as if they are their thoughts - total identification. Then there are people who somehow disengage with this total identification and a crack opens up, usually due to repeated/deep suffering, looking for meaning that is never found, for peace or happiness, or a deep curiosity to reveal what is this life.  So seeking starts and unfortunately still most never find the answer.  Why? That's will take a small book, but LU has a good track record, so by getting here you're already a top dog 🤤. The key to grokking this is probably curiosity and honesty, nobody can predict if there will be seeing or not, you can call it readiness but it's a lot of different things.

Regarding "mental quietness", it can help but is not a requirement, thoughts don't stop appearing even when the self is seen as an illusion. So I would not worry about this at all.


OK, now back to your inquiry! 
Interesting, notice how nearly all of your description is about the content of thoughts. The part where you describe sense perception is minor, the thoughts are the significant portion, wouldn't you agree?  It's great that you noticed how most of the thoughts are circular in nature, pointing to previous thoughts, thoughts about thoughts... most just pointless aren't they?

Can you repeat that experiment, but this time only describe sense perceptions?
Please don't leave out anything, I'd like to know what makes up your entire experience at the moment you do it.
The sights, sounds, smells, sensations, tastes.
What is there other than thoughts about thoughts?

Is there anything else in experience?


Let me know what you find
Ron

[Danadd]

Thanks for your answer, that’s helpful.

I did the experiment again. Here’s what I noticed in my experience:
Sensations: my head. I had a bit of a headache. It resting on the pillow. My forehead was not relaxed. My eyes and eyelids. My nose and the feeling of the air coming in and out. The inside of my mouth. As I felt this I felt more saliva being produced. My tongue and throat.
Hands and arms. Them resting, kind of crossed on my stomach. The feeling of the blanket on me. The feeling of them touching the clothes I’m wearing. It was warm.
My stomach hurt a bit and it was uncomfortable, I didn’t stay in it for long. My feet and legs in my pants, again warm and also soft because of the cotton.
Hearing: I heard people downstairs talking, also a sound that sounded like white noise that I wouldn’t have noticed if I wasn’t trying to. Some birds chirping.
Taste: my bad morning breath taste.
Smell: not much, pretty neutral.
Sight: for the part where my eyes were closed, just black with white dots. It doesn’t feel like looking at something which is strange. When I opened them, I noticed my room, my closet which was right in front of me, the clothes on the suitcase, the lines of my closet, the edge of my nose not so clearly but was there, and also since it was dark the colors were black with white dots a bit, kind of like when I close my eyes but less noticeable since there was more to see.

As I’m writing I’m noticing how limiting words are to describe my experience, and that this is maybe 5% of what I experienced and I’ll never be able to describe it in a way that you’ll understand what it was like, really.

[Ronaldo]

Hi Dana,
I saw your answer and since I'm not working today, I will answer sooner (but you can reply in your tomorrow if you like). One administrative note - sometimes you can lose your typed text (e.g. if you go back in your browser), to avoid frustration, I'd recommend to either type the text elsewhere (I use gmail and just write a draft to nobody) or you can also copy your text in the browser and paste in in some text editor every now and then.

Thanks for doing the exercise, Well done! This is looking. 

the clothes on the suitcase

I assume you're not home?

Can you find anything else in experience other than the five senses, and thoughts? Be absolutely certain, so check and check again during the day, just stop and ask yourself - what is here?

I especially liked what you wrote at the end:

As I’m writing I’m noticing how limiting words are to describe my experience, and that this is maybe 5% of what I experienced and I’ll never be able to describe it in a way that you’ll understand what it was like, really.

You realized that words cannot come near to what the experience is like, nobody said it more beautifully and dramatically than Jiddu Krishnamurti:

The day you teach the child the name of the bird, the child will never see that bird again.

Language is essential, but the habit of thinking in words and using them all the time takes us away from the real experience, doesn't it? The word points to something but cannot capture it, cannot actually describe it at all.

Try to turn some mundane moments of daily life into tiny meditation moments, brushing your teeth as an example - you notice each part of the process, from picking up the toothbrush, opening the tube of paste, placing it on the brush, the feeling of the bristles, the smells and tastes.. who knew something so trivial can be so rich?
Would you try it?

So the sights, the sounds, sensations and taste were all real experiences, but are the thoughts that come and go real experiences? 
Do you drink coffee or tea?
1. Before you make it, try to imagine the process, the warm cup, the aroma, the warm/hot liquid in your mouth, the taste, really take your time and try to do it the best you can.
2. Next do the real thing, paying close attention to the sensations in close detail.

Were the contents of the thoughts (your imagined drinking session) real?
Are any thought content real?


Enjoy your Sat 
Ron

[Danadd]

I saw your answer and since I'm not working today, I will answer sooner (but you can reply in your tomorrow if you like). One administrative note - sometimes you can lose your typed text (e.g. if you go back in your browser), to avoid frustration, I'd recommend to either type the text elsewhere (I use gmail and just write a draft to nobody) or you can also copy your text in the browser and paste in in some text editor every now and then.

Alright, thanks! :)

This is looking.

What I described to you previously, was that also looking? I mean, when I’m watching the thoughts and not actively thinking?

I assume you're not home?

Actually, I am. Sort of, haha. I live away from home in an after graduation program with forty other teens, and come back once every two weeks.

Can you find anything else in experience other than the five senses, and thoughts? Be absolutely certain, so check and check again during the day, just stop and ask yourself - what is here

I will keep doing this, but right now I can’t find anything other than this. There are emotions, but they are physical as well (sensations). There is also intention, which I cannot understand. For example, when I made my tea and saw there were no cups on the shelf, I immediately turned my head to the other shelf. I don’t understand who made this decision. Or who decides what words I’m typing right now. I don’t know if this is connected to your question.
I feel like the answer I’m supposed to find is awareness, but I can’t find it. I mean, I am aware of everything I described, and at this moment of the sounds around me, the way my phone looks, my thoughts, etc. but not aware just of awareness like I am of sounds.

Language is essential, but the habit of thinking in words and using them all the time takes us away from the real experience, doesn't it? The word points to something but cannot capture it, cannot actually describe it at all.

Definitely.

who knew something so trivial can be so rich?
Would you try it?

I love how you described it. And yes, I did it with making tea, with drinking it and drinking my soup. As best as I could without thoughts interrupting. I will keep doing it throughout the day.

Were the contents of the thoughts (your imagined drinking session) real?
Are any thought content real?

The thoughts of imagining making and drinking the tea seemed less real compared to the experience itself. I don’t know if less real, but less enhanced and clear. But for example I did imagine ripping the paper the tea bag is covered in and how it’ll feel, or the feeling of drinking the warm water and it going down my throat. And these felt almost the same imagined and in reality.
So I would say, yes the imagined drinking session was real, it was my real experience while I was imagining it.
Thoughts are real since they are part of my experience.

Thanks,
~Dana

[Ronaldo]

Hey Dana,

What I described to you previously, was that also looking? I mean, when I’m watching the thoughts and not actively thinking?

Noticing thoughts is looking at direct experience, but the contents of thought is not DE. Why? The thought appears now, but the content is usually not about what occurs now, some thought are indeed about your direct experience (tagging "cup") and are almost now, but still takes the raw experience away). In addition, you can't drink an image of water, the word "fire" will not burn you, it may point to something real, but is it? Can it ever be real?
Keep in mind that a sound riiiinnngggg is raw, but "I hear a ring" is an interpretation added by thought. This whatever color is raw, but "green" or "apple" are thoughts tagging raw experience.

right now I can’t find anything other than this. There are emotions, but they are physical as well (sensations).

We will look into emotions a bit later, I don't want to jump around too much, but you've made a good observation, aren't emotion made of thoughts and sensations?

There is also intention, which I cannot understand. For example, when I made my tea and saw there were no cups on the shelf, I immediately turned my head to the other shelf. I don’t understand who made this decision. Or who decides what words I’m typing right now. I don’t know if this is connected to your question.

Good observation and question! This is exactly the direction we're heading with your inquiry 😊.
Do you make decisions.. Do you control thoughts... is the body controlled by thoughts, or does it just move and act without a doer... It's not questions for you to answer yet, just observe for now.

I feel like the answer I’m supposed to find is awareness, but I can’t find it. I mean, I am aware of everything I described, and at this moment of the sounds around me, the way my phone looks, my thoughts, etc. but not aware just of awareness like I am of sounds.

This is excellent looking! You're correct (and honest), despite the endless quotes and spiritual texts, in your direct experience you can only ever find the various sensations and thoughts, awareness is really only a verb, or a concept that can never be found.
You may have already noticed, there is nothing "spiritual" about this inquiry, this is just looking at what is, tossing away any beliefs, concepts and BS and looking at what appears right now.

I love how you described it. And yes, I did it with making tea, with drinking it and drinking my soup. As best as I could without thoughts interrupting. I will keep doing it throughout the day.

Thank you. Thoughts are an integral part of everything that is happening, it's enough to notice them, maybe smile a little at what they said, then go back to observing.

The thoughts of imagining making and drinking the tea seemed less real compared to the experience itself. I don’t know if less real, but less enhanced and clear. But for example I did imagine ripping the paper the tea bag is covered in and how it’ll feel, or the feeling of drinking the warm water and it going down my throat. And these felt almost the same imagined and in reality.
So I would say, yes the imagined drinking session was real, it was my real experience while I was imagining it.
Thoughts are real since they are part of my experience.

Perhaps you have a pretty amazing imagination, or it's possible you were not paying full attention to the real experience, perhaps lost in thoughts? The imagined visions (thought in the form of images), imagined tastes, smells or sensations can never come near the real experience if you pay close attention, and you've noticed it yourself before. This needs to be very clear. So now you're getting another exercise before we can move on to the fascinating stuff😁. This will require you to eat!

1. pick some fruit, something juicy, like a piece of orange or an apple is great - a food you're very familiar with.
2. place it on the table in front of you.
3. With eyes closed, PRETEND that you are picking it up slowly, feel it, smell it, put it in your mouth. Chew it slowly and taste the pretend fruit, bring all your amazing memory and every bit of your imagination into this! Feel the texture and the taste, finally swallow it this pretend fruit.

In your most simple and immediate experience of smelling and tasting the pretend fruit:.
(a) What is the pretend smell made of? (what is it?)
(b) What is the pretend taste made of?

4. take the actual fruit, smell it for real, put it in your mouth, taste it carefully, chew and finally swallow. There will be tagging, "sweet", "yummy" whatever, it's fine, but go back to raw experience again and again, "sweet" is nothing but a tasteless tag, what does it actually taste like?

Describe the real smell and taste
Describe the real texture

When you compare the two experiences, one composed of thoughts and imaginations about eating this apple, to eating the apple - what are your conclusions?

Was the imagined eating satisfying?
No argument that the thoughts were experienced, but were the contents of these thought the real experience?
If you think of Batman, the thought is real, but is Batman real?

Nice going, keep it up Dana.
Ron

[Danadd]

Hi Ron :)
Hope you had a good Saturday.

The thought appears now, but the content is usually not about what occurs now, some thought are indeed about your direct experience (tagging "cup") and are almost now, but still takes the raw experience away).

Mm, yes, I see.

aren't emotion made of thoughts and sensations?

Yes, agreed.

This is excellent looking! You're correct (and honest), despite the endless quotes and spiritual texts, in your direct experience you can only ever find the various sensations and thoughts, awareness is really only a verb, or a concept that can never be found

Thank you! This is great to hear because up until now I was trying to find it, not getting what I’m missing and why I can’t find it.

(a) What is the pretend smell made of? (what is it?)
(b) What is the pretend taste made of?

They are both made of thoughts, my imagination. Really, it doesn’t feel like they’re “made of” anything because they’re not physical. They just appear in my awareness but I don’t feel them with any of my senses like I do reality.

Describe the real smell and taste
Describe the real texture

When you compare the two experiences, one composed of thoughts and imaginations about eating this apple, to eating the apple - what are your conclusions?

Was the imagined eating satisfying?
No argument that the thoughts were experienced, but were the contents of these thought the real experience?
If you think of Batman, the thought is real, but is Batman real?

The real smell was vibrant and clear, whereas when I tried to imagine it before I couldn’t remember what an orange smelled like and only had a faint smell in my mind. But the texture, I did imagine clearly. I imagined it being made of the strips (I forgot what they’re called). And being squishy. And sweet. And yet when I tasted and bit into the orange it was much more real than the thought. I can’t describe it differently than how I described the thoughts because as we already said, words can’t capture the actual experience.
I can’t say the thought didn’t resemble the experience of eating the orange, but on the other hand I also want to say that it was nothing like it! Because the real experience is real and the thoughts aren’t. This is clear to me. I tried this a few times to make sure. I tried to imagine what it would be like cutting another piece of orange, then I actually cut it, and yes, I see the difference. Thoughts are not reality. Me imagining eating the orange was just an imagination, nothing real about it.

Regards,
Dana