Is there something more to be seen

[Kamenkr]

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
That the Ego is a joke. Those are only sensations, past stories that are been held. But in reality in the here and now there is only the now and what is.

What are you looking for at LU?
To see if there is something more that I have not seen, and if so - what. I have the new point of view since 3-4 days and I wonder if this is the whole truth or I do not see something. It is only this.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
To understand if I lie myself that I saw the reality as it is or it is true. I think thats all at the moment.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
Started before 14 years. Then I red about the Ego and how by reducing it you can have more freedom. I had anxiety, maybe panic attacks and maybe depression. I had thoughts about the meaning of the life and i was constantly asking "Whats the purpose of life". After few years I started meditating.
Breathing meditation. I practiced this 5 years. The last year I have been very serious. Couple of hours a day. I follow spiritual teachers like Mooji, Rupert Spira, Ramana Maharshi, Adyashanti and so on. Before 4 days on a seminar with Rupert Spira he made a meditation. In the meditation we tried to be like a new born baby, so if story comes its not real because we havent got any experience. Then he told us to feel our hand, but without the story. Then I suddenly started to laugh because in the actual experience I saw that everything that I hold is only the story of me. That the hand is actually the current sensation in the Awareness at best. If I do not think about it, the sensation is not there too. Then only the Self remains (the Advaita Self - I mean the Supreme Self). So after this I ve been having so powerful meditations, just watching the story of me and everything that comes. I constantly joke, that I am enlightened, because I think this is the seeing most people are loking for. I try to meditate so i can destroy the habits. I join here to ask if it is something more that I should do, or I can just remain daily in this. there is a strange feeling of Ego death, seeing that everything that I have been thinking is a complete illusion. I would like to ask if this is normal or it is because of Ego still not flushed out.
Of course I have wondeful experiences, like the one I had as a kid. Everything so fresh so beautiful, but sometimes the habits come and I have to stay with them or I have to destroy them in meditation. In meditation I destroy them unless I am not sleepy. So I would like to here your oppinion.

Thank you very much!

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self?
11

[Vivien]

Hi,

Welcome to Liberation Unleashed. My name is Vivien and I can assist you with your inquiry.

This is going to be your inquiry. I will not be giving you new ideas and beliefs; only assisting you in examining and questioning the ones that you already have. We can have a conversation and see where it takes you.

The purpose of which would be for there to be a realisation, more than just intellectually, that there never was and never will be a separate self, as, such. All our efforts will focus on that.

I will tend to ask many questions. That's my job here. These, will be pointers towards no self. It will be for you to examine your experience to find out what's true or not.

I would like to ask you to write only from your experience as you see it, what feels true, with whole honesty.
And also post daily. If you cannot post, or need more time, please let me know.
Can we agree on these?

Could you please tell me what are you really looking for? How would your life change if you find that?
What are you hoping for to change?
What do you hope that should happen?
What is missing?

Vivien

[Kamenkr]

Hi Vivien,

nice to meet you. My name is Kamen. thank you very much for your help!

This is going to be your inquiry. I will not be giving you new ideas and beliefs; only assisting you in examining and questioning the ones that you already have. We can have a conversation and see where it takes you.

Ok

The purpose of which would be for there to be a realisation, more than just intellectually, that there never was and never will be a separate self, as, such. All our efforts will focus on that.

Yes

I would like to ask you to write only from your experience as you see it, what feels true, with whole honesty.
And also post daily. If you cannot post, or need more time, please let me know.

I will post daily and check daily. I will try to be 100% sure that the words are mine and not from what I have heard.

We can agree on this 100%

Could you please tell me what are you really looking for? How would your life change if you find that?

As I wrote you at the beginning, I would like to know if I really have seen what you here on LU point. I do not want to be lying to myself. If I find that, I wont be that concerned of searching something anymore. Actually this desire decreased a lot. But now there is another desire - to purify my old believes and do stay in that awarenes.

What are you hoping for to change?

Maybe I still have the fear that I can loose what I saw, and namely - that there is not really a real "ME". Because in my experience I "saw" many things before, but they passed, but this one is profound and I somethimes want to be sure that this is how everything is functioning.

What do you hope that should happen?

I hope that, when we speak, I can clearly see what you are pointing and in the best case you asure me that I have seen this the same way and it is hard to loose this "seeing".

What is missing?

It is maybe the last sentence that is missing + stabilising that "seeing" with my old belives. Because the character that is 30 years there wont give up that easy. There are layers of psycic disturbances that have to be purified.

I am not sure if I wrote everything clear. I hope you will understand me.

I thank you one more time!

Best wishes,
Kamen

[Vivien]

Hi Kamen,

Thank you for getting through these questions about expectations. It’s important, because every expectation is in a way of seeing what is here, right now.

Every expectation is a ‘hindrance’ in realizing what IS. Expectations result in comparison. Comparison between what is happening, and the imagined expectation. Thus what has been seen can be thrown out or ignored, since it doesn’t match the expected outcome.

As I wrote you at the beginning, I would like to know if I really have seen what you here on LU point. I do not want to be lying to myself.

That’s great that you are open to investigate if there is any belief left. And this is what we are going to do.

Actually this desire decreased a lot. But now there is another desire - to purify my old believes and do stay in that awarenes.

And who has this desire to purify its old beliefs?
Where is the owner of these old beliefs?

And what is it that could stay in awareness?
Is there someone or something that is moving in and out of awareness?

Maybe I still have the fear that I can loose what I saw,

So you think that seeing belongs to someone?
That there is someone here how saw?

Because in my experience I "saw" many things before, but they passed, but this one is profound and I somethimes want to be sure that this is how everything is functioning.

The thing is that it doesn’t really matter much what was seen in the past.
The only thing that matters what is seen in this very moment.
Awakening is not like have an awakening experience and then relying on the memory of that.
It’s about able to see it moment by moment.
Is it seen now? And now? And what about now?
Seeing always have to be AFRESH.
If it needs a memory to rely on, then it’s not seen in this moment.
And there isn‘t any other time or place to see it than here-now :)

The reason for those questions were to find out what expectations you have how it would be like or feel like when the separate self is seen through. Many have the idea that it’s a special state of bliss, happiness, peace and constant ease; and a happy state has to be present as evidence of having had the realization. But the realization is often quite subtle, and it can be hidden by expectations. When there is any sort of expectation, there is a comparison between the preconceived ideas of what it should be like and what is seen, with the conclusion “This not IT”.

Please, put all the books and videos aside, we are going to be focusing on what you see, rather than what you have learned. Can we agree on this?

Vivien

[Kamenkr]

Hi Vivien,

And who has this desire to purify its old beliefs?

Actually, no one. I just wanted to answer you somehow, but it is clear that no one will benefit from this. It is just the old habit come and form the Ego consciousness and then it is hard because there is 100% a personality there. When I start watching it, it vanishes very fast. But when I am tired and I can not focus it stays and feels like a person. I get it, that I need time and this is not a hindrance actualy.

Where is the owner of these old beliefs?

And what is it that could stay in awareness?

The owner is the Hero from the story that never existed. Its just, when you watch movie all day long and go to bed, you can not fall asleep, because it just goes trough your mind and it does not mater if you keep saying "It was a movie" it wont stop. It needs time. Do you agree with me?

Sometimes the old habit is so strong, that I forget about the realisation. Ofcourse when I sit and start to watch, everything comes at its place.

Is there someone or something that is moving in and out of awareness?

In reality - no.

So you think that seeing belongs to someone?

It does not. Sometimes I think, if I am 100% sure that "I" don't exist, but when I start watching it becomes clear.

That there is someone here how saw?

No, there is no one.

Please, put all the books and videos aside, we are going to be focusing on what you see, rather than what you have learned. Can we agree on this?

Yes, I try to answer only from my experience.

Thank you Vivien!

Kamen

[Vivien]

Hi Kamen,

Thanks for your comments.

You missed a question:

And what is it that could stay in awareness?

Please don't just quickly say that there is no one who could stay in awareness, rather look with curiosity to find out what is this all about. A statement has made on behalf of someone separate.

The owner is the Hero from the story that never existed. Its just, when you watch movie all day long and go to bed, you can not fall asleep, because it just goes trough your mind and it does not mater if you keep saying "It was a movie" it wont stop. It needs time. Do you agree with me?

But what if the movie doesn’t go through anything, let alone a mind? What if saying that ‘It was just a movie’ is also part of the movie?

Are thoughts go through a mind? Or come from a mind? Or maybe thoughts thought or made by a mind?

What we are doing with these investigations is to check the validity of thoughts, if they are actually telling the truth. And we do that be looking at immediate experience.

So what is the direct experience of a mind? How a mind as such is experienced here now?

Please spend a whole day investigating this again and again.

You wrote this in your first post:

I try to meditate so i can destroy the habits.

This sounds like there is a self who has a problem with habits, and this self believes in control, so it believes that it has a power to do and change things, so it is set on a journey to meditate in order to destroy its habits.

It’s one thing to curiously investigate habitual patters, and it’s another one to trying to destroy them.

Please look carefully and very honestly…

What is it that has a problem with habits? What is it that wants to get rid of them?
What is it that believes that it has a power to change them?
What is it that sits down to meditate? What mediates?

Please be careful not to jump to say that there is no one wanting to get rid of them, and no one is meditating, rather really-really look for this one with curiosity who sits down to mediate to destroy habits.

Vivien

[Kamenkr]

Hi Vivien,

I went in the forest so that nothing disturbes me to get the answers. At the beginning I felt that the questions are a little bit hard. But after a while sitting with them I found the answers.

Are thoughts go through a mind? Or come from a mind? Or maybe thoughts thought or made by a mind?

I will tell you my personal experience. The thoughts are comming in the space of awareness as a popping labels or clusters of labels.

So what is the direct experience of a mind? How a mind as such is experienced here now?

The mind is just the labels that are comming in the field of awareness. There could be some emotions which are again labels of current sensation. For example, when I got FEAR, there is the sensation + the labeling that this is fear.

And what is it that could stay in awareness?

Is nothing at all. I can not tell you more. Can you speak a lot about something that is just not there?

But what if the movie doesn’t go through anything, let alone a mind? What if saying that ‘It was just a movie’ is also part of the movie?

I think, you understand me. Ofcourse when there is no person at all, there is no one to watch the movie. But sometimes it can aggregate, when for example I almost fall asleep. I realised the whole thing before 10 days I think. Or in the dream I am still separate, and so on. I think it needs time. I am not impatient nor am I in a hurry for something.

What is it that has a problem with habits?

I naver stated that there is a problem. I just understand that this will happen for a while.

What is it that wants to get rid of them?

This could be an idea of a person, but when I look, I can not find someone wanting to get rid.

What is it that believes that it has a power to change them?

Again, nothing has this desire.

What is it that sits down to meditate? What mediates?

It is just the old habit of the person, but when I look, it is nothing and noone.

I think it looks like that I do not write a lot, but what could I write? I really just do not see a person.

See, when I close my eyes in meditation, if I know the place where I am - it is just past memories, if i hold a person, it is again reffering to the past. If i remeber any shape of my body or anything - its also a past. I just sit with the rest. Just the awareness, which again is pretty bad word for describing "this".
Yes, there is a striving to stay in this. And I think, if i stop forever staying in "this" after 2 weeks I will be the old story just knowing that its not real and nothing more.

Is it possible for someone to see that there is no seperate self and just forget meditation, stop watching, start drinking and going out and after 1 year still be with this deep "knowing"?

Thank you very much about your time!

Kamen

[Vivien]

Hi Kamen,

Is it possible for someone to see that there is no seperate self and just forget meditation, stop watching, start drinking and going out and after 1 year still be with this deep "knowing"?

It’s not about meditation; it’s about incorporating looking and investigation into daily life, so it becomes a habit. For meditators, often there is a big gap between what they can see during meditation, and what they see and how they live their everyday lives. When this happens, the self hasn’t been seen fully (if it’s seen only in meditation). Then those are just glimpses that are induced by a meditative state. What we are doing here to be able to see it in daily life. I’m not saying that for 24/7 (however that will come over time).

At the beginning, for almost everybody, there is a flip-flopping back and forth between seeing and identifying. Even after the self is seen through. The old conditioning of identifying is still strong, and there is a pull back to identify. So at this stage, which can last some time (and it cannot be known in advance how long it will take), looking should go on to help to stabilize this flip-flopping.

Also, seeing that there is no separate self is just the first step, it’s not an end. The core belief of being a separate self is seen through which also includes others beliefs that support this idea. However, like a rug that is beginning to unravel, there are still many knots (beliefs, patterns) that need undoing. Falling away of conditionings can last at the end of the organism. Continuing to LOOK after the realisation is very much the key.

Life happens and patterns come up. Patterns can dissolve over time and then things can change, but this needs work, it won't happen on its own, it needs looking at.

See, when I close my eyes in meditation, if I know the place where I am - it is just past memories, if i hold a person, it is again reffering to the past. If i remeber any shape of my body or anything - its also a past.

“I know the place where I am” – what do you refer to with this I? Are you referring to the separate self? Or are you talking about a ‘real I’, or a ‘higher self’ maybe?

The mind is just the labels

So can you clearly see that there is no such thing as a mind other than a man-made concept, as an idea only?

The thoughts are comming in the space of awareness as a popping labels or clusters of labels.

Awareness is a commonly used concept, but let’s look if there is an actual ‘thing or no-thing’ behind it… if it is really what it seems to be.

How do you perceive awareness itself?
Just notice if there is any mental image present showing some kind of big or open space IN which thoughts appear?

How do you know that there is an awareness as a background of experience?
Is there an independent awareness waiting in the background for things to appear in?

Is there an awareness which is something special, apart from the five senses?
Is awareness something independent of and prior to sense perception?

The mind is just the labels that are comming in the field of awareness.

Just notice that what you are talking here is separation… if thoughts/labels coming IN a FIELD of awareness.

Is there an actual field waiting to things come INTO it?

And where is a thought BEFORE coming into awareness?
Can there be a thought without the awareness or knowing of it?

Can there be something outside of awareness? Wouldn't something outside to awareness point to separation?

Is this awareness something else than experience itself?

Is there awareness + experience (thought, sensation, color, sound, etc) as two things? One (experience) coming INTO and showing up INSIDE the other (awareness)?
Or experience and the awareness of it are one and the same?

Please spend a whole day investigating these. Be very thorough. Watch out for any mental images providing an explanation how things are.

Vivien

[Kamenkr]

Hello Vivien,

you got me here. I found some separation here. I ll spend the day contemplating your questions.
Thank you

Kamen

[Kamenkr]

Hi Vivien,

It’s not about meditation; it’s about incorporating looking and investigation into daily life, so it becomes a habit. For meditators, often there is a big gap between what they can see during meditation, and what they see and how they live their everyday lives. When this happens, the self hasn’t been seen fully (if it’s seen only in meditation). Then those are just glimpses that are induced by a meditative state. What we are doing here to be able to see it in daily life. I’m not saying that for 24/7 (however that will come over time).

At the beginning, for almost everybody, there is a flip-flopping back and forth between seeing and identifying. Even after the self is seen through. The old conditioning of identifying is still strong, and there is a pull back to identify. So at this stage, which can last some time (and it cannot be known in advance how long it will take), looking should go on to help to stabilize this flip-flopping.

Also, seeing that there is no separate self is just the first step, it’s not an end. The core belief of being a separate self is seen through which also includes others beliefs that support this idea. However, like a rug that is beginning to unravel, there are still many knots (beliefs, patterns) that need undoing. Falling away of conditionings can last at the end of the organism. Continuing to LOOK after the realisation is very much the key.

Life happens and patterns come up. Patterns can dissolve over time and then things can change, but this needs work, it won't happen on its own, it needs looking at.

Thanks for clarifiying this. I think I ment the same thing.

“I know the place where I am” – what do you refer to with this I? Are you referring to the separate self? Or are you talking about a ‘real I’, or a ‘higher self’ maybe?

Let's say, the eyes are closed. If there is a person or an Idea of a room, that is just seen as past. So I stay as myself.
This "myself" is "ME", not "me" - the ego.

So can you clearly see that there is no such thing as a mind other than a man-made concept, as an idea only?

I can clearly see that the mind is the totality of the many non stop comming labels in ME. So yes, it is an idea.
I would like to ask if this is important?

How do you perceive awareness itself?

Oh, it is very hard to be described. I AM not awareness. This words is one of the best it can describe it. Other words are - "me", "Being", "I AM". I spent some time, trying to describe this. I was about to say "Just life", but I feel its not the best description, atleast for me.

Just notice if there is any mental image present showing some kind of big or open space IN which thoughts appear

No, there isn't actually open space or field. It is just bad try to describe "this".

Is there an independent awareness waiting in the background for things to appear in?

No, I am it. I spent a little bit of time to watch, why the thoughts cast shadow on it, somehow. There is an automatic jumping on the thoughts and so the I AM is forgotten, but it is always present. Everything that happens, happens in ME.

Is there an awareness which is something special, apart from the five senses?

Well, if I do not have the senses I still know that I AM, I mean, I exist so to speak. As you do not mention the thoughts, they come as well in ME.

Is awareness something independent of and prior to sense perception?

If you mean the I AM under the word "awareness" - Yes, it is independent and prior the senses and the thoughts.

Is there an actual field waiting to things come INTO it?

This can not be described like this. I AM is not a field.

And where is a thought BEFORE coming into awareness?

It does not exist.

Can there be a thought without the awareness or knowing of it?

No, but I can exist without a thought.

Can there be something outside of awareness?

No, as I mentioned, everything takes place there.

Wouldn't something outside to awareness point to separation?

Without I AM or the awareness there couldn't be any experience possible. So the question is not valid then.

Is this awareness something else than experience itself?

No, it is like this and It experiences itself

Is there awareness + experience (thought, sensation, color, sound, etc) as two things? One (experience) coming INTO and showing up INSIDE the other (awareness)?

It is only one thing. The thoughts as well. But here comes the hard or the hardest part. I realised this and said to myself, that I will just be, whatever comes. But somehow I just started the old association with the thoughts. So I thought, there is no one who can get disturbed by this. But the thoughts were so overwhelming. I had the question, on whose behalf are they comming.
I struggled a little bit. Then I decided that I AM is the core of me in which everything appears. So I just have to stay as the core. But who could say this? An here have one question. Is the last sentence true or I have to allow to go trough all my thoughts, knowing that I am not the ego. This will be very hard... Not sure If I ever could do this.

Thank you very much!

Kamen

[Kamenkr]

I was thinking about the last sentences I wrote. If I completely surrender, then the fearful thoughts will come, then the seperate self will be triggered and I will be pulled towards the habit of separate self having a hard time.
I think I have to put effort first so I can gravitate towards Myself and not towards the Ego.
If I go trough all my fears it will annihilate me forever, but it is impossible right now. Just an automatic process.

Thank you!
Best wishes,
Kamen

[Kamenkr]

Hello again,

sorry for the spam. It is so contradictive... I tried to go trough it, but nothing actually happens. A slight fear came, but I dropped the labels and just felt the current sensation which is like a vibration and that was it.

You see, it's very late here and i got confused. Somethimes things get a little bit blurred.



Kamen

[Vivien]

Hi Kamen,

Reading through your comments, there are quite some contraction and confusion. There is still a subtle belief in an I, but now as this field-like awareness that everything appears in. But what if there is no me whatsoever? Not as a ‘thing’ that other things appear IN?

The confusion is coming from not seeing clearly thoughts for what they are. So whatever thoughts offer that is usually accepted as face value, without seeing that no content is ever real, ever experienced. This is very common, actually it’s an everyday human condition.

Therefore, we are going to investigate thoughts, and check their validity, if they are actually telling the truth.

Here is what looking is:
‘Looking’ is just plain looking at what is here right now. It is moving from the conceptual down to the actual experience (AE). The term “Actual Experience” (AE) is used to refer to experience ‘right now,’ without the thought stories. So, actual experience (AE) is image/colour, sound, smell, sensation, taste and the simple knowing of thought, at face value. What thought says, the content of thought is NOT experience. This is evidenced by the fact that you cannot taste the word 'sweet'. So, when looking at actual experience (AE), you are looking at raw experience WITHOUT what thought says ABOUT the raw experience.

I can clearly see that the mind is the totality of the many non stop comming labels in ME. So yes, it is an idea.
I would like to ask if this is important?

Of course, it’s important to see what the mind is in realty. Also, what is this seeming me that labels appear in.

Is the last sentence true or I have to allow to go trough all my thoughts, knowing that I am not the ego

What if it’s more than that? What if it’s more than “I am not my ego”? What if there is no I whatsoever to be an ego or not?

sorry for the spam. It is so contradictive... I tried to go trough it, but nothing actually happens. A slight fear came, but I dropped the labels and just felt the current sensation which is like a vibration and that was it.

Exactly! Only a thought story says that something bad happens if you allow yourself to feel the sensations of fear. But actually nothing bad happens :) It’s just an intense contracted sensation, nothing more :)

For fear to appear in this investigation is quite common. It is not all fun, though it is, too, it is a bit threatening, too. It threatens beliefs, the story, all the stories and identifications that are around.
It is ok.

What to do with fear? The only thing to do is to embrace it.
Embrace it, let it be and just love it like a mother loves her child. No need to fight anything.

I think I have to put effort first so I can gravitate towards Myself and not towards the Ego.

But this ‘myself’ you talk about is nothing else than what you call as ‘ego’.
They are one and the same.
The same separate self under the name of ego or myself.
There is no two selves… myself + ego.
There is not even one.
There is no self whatsoever in reality.
All there is to a self is an idea. But we are going to investigate this later.

Here is the basics of how to look.

You can tell me what is behind your back in two ways:
1. You can think about it, remember and tell me from thinking.
2. You can turn around, see it and describe.

So in this investigation I ask you to look at and describe what you experience and not what you think, remember or imagine.
Can you see the difference?

When you look what is behind your back, or when you look at your socks, you are DIRECTLY EXPERIENCING what is seen. There is no inference, it’s direct and immediate. You know the color without any thought about the color. No thought is needed to see/know.

When you just remember what is behind your back and what color your socks are, that is in inference, it’s not a direct experience. It’s about having thoughts about it. All your information is coming from thoughts, and not from immediate experience of seeing it (which is BEFORE thoughts).
Can you see this?

Hopefully you would agree that you can only be 100% certain by looking.

For the purpose of our dialogue together, it is going to be very important that you are clear about this difference. Knowing is about knowledge which is all in the mind and in the past and we are not interested in that. We are only interested in looking at and seeing what is actually going on in your present moment to moment experience. We are only interested in your direct experience in the moment.

So with every single question I give you, I’m asking you to check your immediate experience, and never ever rely on thought, memory or imagination.

Now, on these similar lines, turn towards this seeming ego, and describe it.
Where is this ego exactly?
How big it is?
What color it has? Shape? Size? Texture?

Vivien

[Vivien]

I wold like to add something:

I struggled a little bit. Then I decided that I AM is the core of me in which everything appears. So I just have to stay as the core.

This is intellectual. Seeing how things are, is not a thought based intellectual decision.

You have to let go of the intellect and just stay with the experience of the 5 senses.
And answers will come from the simplicity of experience, and not from thought stories.

[Kamenkr]

Hello Vivien,

I will contemplate this. I think I understand what you want from me. You want me to just always stick to the AE.

But here I have a question.

So, actual experience (AE) is image/colour, sound, smell, sensation, taste and the simple knowing of thought, at face value.

Here if I think about what I see, I will see different objects, which is not an AE. Is the AE + the lables from the past.
How can you comment on this?

Can you see the difference?

Yes, pretty much.

Can you see this?

Yes.

Hopefully you would agree that you can only be 100% certain by looking.

I am not sure if I can be 100% sure even by looking, as the senses are limited as well.

Now, on these similar lines, turn towards this seeming ego, and describe it.
Where is this ego exactly?
How big it is?
What color it has? Shape? Size? Texture?

I'll do this and come to you again. Just wanted to ask you the questions about putting labels on everything in the NOW which are from the past.

Thank you Vivien,

Kamen