Guidance for deep looking

[Vivien]

Hi Mike,

I can't find any worrier - as always I find sensations in the face and thoughts about those sensations. A belief that these sensations are me which weakens /goes away when the sensations are looked at.

Yes. So whenever worry comes up, investigate these sensations. Again and again and again. Thousands of times.

When I look at the voice for example I can see that it can't be me. It stops and I am still here. So it can't be me.

Exactly. And you have to see this also repeatedly lots of times in order to really sink in.

This sparks off physical contractions and yes it is now the I thought is activated .

I thought activated? Doesn’t the thought of I is almost always there when there is a thought?
I am hungry, I go to bed now, my opinion is that.., I don’t feel like shopping now, but I should, I had a coffee with my colleague, yesterday I hardly do any work, etc...

Is this I-thought you are talking about a some kind of entity that can be activated?
Is there anything to I-thought than the letter/word ‘I’?

So the imagined voice just happens - yes it is not aware of anything. Then the I thought attaches to the worry thought –

You are talking as if the I-thought would be some kind of aware entity with all sorts of ability, like attaching itself to worrying thoughts. But is that so?

Is the I-thought an entity?
Is it alive?
Is it aware?
Is the thought of I know about other thoughts?
Can the word ‘I’ feel, think, attach or do anything?

What can a word do?
And what can the word I do?

I see this more often but still there is some resistance - is it possible to look at this?

Resistance to what? To the unpleasant sensation?
That’s one thing to see that there is no separate self, and it’s another to not resist what is happening. These are two different things.

So look: what is it that is resisting?
The sensations are resisting?
Can the word I resist?
Can thoughts about resistance actually resist?

Vivien

[Mike1001]

Hi Vivien

When I look at the voice for example I can see that it can't be me. It stops and I am still here. So it can't be me.
Exactly. And you have to see this also repeatedly lots of times in order to really sink in.
This sparks off physical contractions and yes it is now the I thought is activated .

I thought activated? Doesn’t the thought of I is almost always there when there is a thought?

I am hungry, I go to bed now, my opinion is that.., I don’t feel like shopping now, but I should, I had a coffee with my colleague, yesterday I hardly do any work, etc...

Yes - thats right the I thought is always there. In a minute I am going to the gym. I am worrying about the possible lockdown next week. I am drinking my coffee. I am watching too much tv. I was working yesterday. I found him annoying. I really liked him etc etc.

Is this I-thought you are talking about a some kind of entity that can be activated?

No you're right he thought/assumption is always there - but sometimes seems to become stronger when it is threatened

Is there anything to I-thought than the letter/word ‘I’?

No- I can't find anything

So the imagined voice just happens - yes it is not aware of anything. Then the I thought attaches to the worry thought –

You are talking as if the I-thought would be some kind of aware entity with all sorts of ability, like attaching itself to worrying thoughts. But is that so?

No I see that it is not aware - its rather that it is linked somehow to a worry thought (can't think of any other way to say it). Soemthing happens (e.g news about next weeks lockdown), and there is a thought I don't want that. We are becoming a police state etc. Then sensations appear which are labelled as fear- and there is a belief thought that I am fearful and that I dont want to be fearful and that I must do something.

So the I thought/belief/assumption is always there - I'm not sure if it gets stronger or weaker in response to other thoughts and events or if its just the emotions and sensations that change. The I thought /assumption is just there.

Is the I-thought an entity?

no

Is it alive?

no

Is it aware?

no

Is the thought of I know about other thoughts?

no

Can the word ‘I’ feel, think, attach or do anything?

no

What can a word do?

nothing

And what can the word I do?

nothing nothing


I see this more often but still there is some resistance - is it possible to look at this?
Resistance to what? To the unpleasant sensation?
That’s one thing to see that there is no separate self, and it’s another to not resist what is happening. These are two different things.

So look: what is it that is resisting?

The sensations are resisting?
Can the word I resist?
Can thoughts about resistance actually resist?

no sensations can't resist - the word I cant resist.
No thoughts about resistance just appear - they can't resist of they are not aware entities which of course they aren't.

Thanks again Vivien - still lookign
Best wishes, Mike

[Vivien]

Hi Mike,

V: Is this I-thought you are talking about a some kind of entity that can be activated?

M: No you're right he thought/assumption is always there - but sometimes seems to become stronger when it is threatened

But how can a thought of “I” be threatened?
Do you see that you are still believing that there is a real I somewhere?

Can you clearly see that no thought can be threatened, including the word I?

Is there anything to the I than the word itself?

V: Is there anything to I-thought than the letter/word ‘I’?

M: No- I can't find anything

If you really SEE that there is nothing to the I-thought than the word itself, then how could this word be threatened?
Can you REALLY SEE that there is no-one to be hurt?

Soemthing happens (e.g news about next weeks lockdown), and there is a thought I don't want that. We are becoming a police state etc.

Let’s look at this. Especially, that many people have all sorts of fears around this.

Just notice, that what is happening is utterly neutral. Always.
All judgment comes from thoughts.
So lockdown itself is totally neutral.
Only you interpret it to be something bad.
It’s not about the lockdown, it’s about your INTERPRETATION of this situation.
YOU make it into something bad.
The situation is totally neutral.
But you make it into something bad based on what MEANING you GIVE to it.
As soon as you label the situation as “we are becoming a police state” – you’ve created something to be afraid of.
You are not afraid of the lockdown itself (since that is totally neutral), you are afraid of your INTERPRETATION of it.
You are afraid of what you IMAGINE what lockdown MEAN.
You give it a fearful meaning.
It’s your doing.
You are afraid of your own creation.
Can you see this?

Look into this very deeply. If you can see what I’m pointing to then you can investigate any fears you have, and see the truth behind them.

Vivien

[Mike1001]

Hi Vivien

Really sorry about the delay in getting back to you again.

V: Is this I-thought you are talking about a some kind of entity that can be activated?

M: No you're right he thought/assumption is always there - but sometimes seems to become stronger when it is threatened

But how can a thought of “I” be threatened?

ok a thought of I , me can't be threatened. Thoughts of fear might come (about the lockdown and police state for example) and with them physical sensations and more thoughts about the original thoughts (what will happen, what can I do etc) . The thoughts might come faster and physical sensations intensify and the thought of an I/me is there in every thought (along with the belief/another thought that this me is in danger).

For example when my attention moves from thing to another there is sometimes a physical contraction around the eyes adn temples and a belief/assumption that I am doing it (moving the attention). There is no word I spoken and there is no belief that the sensations are me but there is just a belief as you say that there is a real I somewhere doing it.

Do you see that you are still believing that there is a real I somewhere?
[/quote]

Yes

Can you clearly see that no thought can be threatened, including the word I?

I can see that the word I cannot be threatened - the word spoken as a thought. It is just a word. But I have a belief that something can. When I look now its the body and the emotional state and the future that I believe can be threatened.

The body is not the I - it doesn't control anything. If my hand fell off the thought of I would still be here, but yes there is still a belief that the body is mine and with emotional states there is a strong desire to avoid certain emotions which arise I notice when I believe I am threatened ( not sure how else to put it - but for example if someone in conversation ignores me or is rude to me, a strong desire to undo/put right the perceived insult comes up as if I am trying to defend me - or the idea of me.)

Is there anything to the I than the word itself?
V: Is there anything to I-thought than the letter/word ‘I’?

there are sensations labelled as me and a belief in a separate me existing somewhere - the word I comes up in speech and thoughts in my head or is assumed when it doesn't.

Now I feel that I am here. The I thought is there even if there is no verbal thought I (as an assumption).

(previously I said no I can't see anything).

If you really SEE that there is nothing to the I-thought than the word itself, then how could this word be threatened?
Can you REALLY SEE that there is no-one to be hurt?

unfortunately I can't see that yet. Let me look again right now...

In my present experience - right now mostly what I have is memories/thoughts. Reality what I can hear see and touch is always changing - and becoming the past?/thoughts.

Right now I am typing on the keyboard and can feel the sensations of the keys under my fingers but as I write the end of the sentence the start of the sentence is already just a thought/imagination.

Actually I'm not sure that I know it is even happening on that linear order. There is what can be sensed and thoughts/emotions.

If I say I had a thought a few moments ago in reality is just thinking now about some past event which doesnt exist except as a thought. And I realize the word past is just a word - as is the word now. Looking I don't see any past or any now. Its just what is sensed ad thoughts about an imagined past and future and ? an imagined now (because even saying now implies a past and a future ?)


Sorry I went off track there - I am looking for me - the thought of me and/or seeing whether there is anyone here that can be hurt...

when i look I can't find a separate me but I still seem to believe me is coming through the expressions in my face and the voice in my head. But the me thought/feeling shifts around.

If I say I I I - its just a word. that can't be hurt, but I still cant see that there is no-one here to hurt. I can see that the feelings and thoughts arise by themselves but often this is forgotten (at least I think it is but right now of course its just a thought that they are forgotten).

Soemthing happens (e.g news about next weeks lockdown), and there is a thought I don't want that. We are becoming a police state etc.
Let’s look at this. Especially, that many people have all sorts of fears around this.

Just notice, that what is happening is utterly neutral. Always.
All judgment comes from thoughts.
So lockdown itself is totally neutral.
Only you interpret it to be something bad.
It’s not about the lockdown, it’s about your INTERPRETATION of this situation.
YOU make it into something bad.
The situation is totally neutral.
But you make it into something bad based on what MEANING you GIVE to it.
As soon as you label the situation as “we are becoming a police state” – you’ve created something to be afraid of.
You are not afraid of the lockdown itself (since that is totally neutral), you are afraid of your INTERPRETATION of it.
You are afraid of what you IMAGINE what lockdown MEAN.
You give it a fearful meaning.
It’s your doing.
You are afraid of your own creation.
Can you see this?

ok I can see that I hear some news and that sparks off thoughts/images in my mind and that I generate images/mental movies of scenarios which I see as bad so in that sense I have given the lockdown a fearful meaning.

But I'm struggling with what is happening always being totally neutral. I think this is because I still believe there is someone here who can be hurt.

For example if a burgular broke into our house and threatened me with a gun and then maybe shot me I would think that was a bad situation - but of course this is all imagination. That is not happening. So in that sense I am scaring myslef again with thoughts...

But some situations are bad for the body for example or bad for Mike's situation - but this is all based on the belief that there is a separate me here controlling things who can be hurt... and that the body belongs to this separate me.

Look into this very deeply. If you can see what I’m pointing to then you can investigate any fears you have, and see the truth behind them.

ok will look further at fears today - thank you Vivien

[Vivien]

Hi Mike,

But I have a belief that something can. When I look now its the body and the emotional state and the future that I believe can be threatened.

Emotional state can be threatened? Are you sure?
What is the experience of ‘emotional state’? Is there such thing?
Or all there is are sensations + thoughts stories floating around ABOUT an imagined character called me?

And how could be the future threatened?
Do you believe that there is such thing as future?
Look closely. There is no such thing as future. Future is totally a man-made artificial concept without any roots in reality.
Future is nothing else than a thought story happening NOW. Can you see this?

but yes there is still a belief that the body is mine

We often say ‘MY body’ – so what is it that owns the body?
And how do you know that the body is owned?
What is it that claims ‘MY body’?

You have clothes, right? But what is owning them?
What is that makes the clothes “mine”?
What is that claims the clothes to be “MY clothes”?
Does the seeming ‘voice in the head’, the commentator, owns the clothes?
Do thoughts own the clothes?
Does the thought ‘mine’ owns the clothes?
Does word/thought Mike owns the clothes?
Does the label on clothes own the clothes?
Does the label ‘my’ owns the body?
Does the label/word/thought Mike owns the body?

Please make sure that you don’t think about the answers.
Thinking is in a way of SEEING how things actually are.
Just NOTICE what is here that is owning the body.

emotional states there is a strong desire to avoid certain emotions

What does emotions happen TO?
Is there a REAL Mike who FEELS emotions?
Or there are only emotions floating around without being anchored to anyone, without happening to anything or anyone?

there are sensations labelled as me and a belief in a separate me existing somewhere

But what is your proof for this separate self existing somewhere?
Have you EVER encountered a separate self? EVER?
Or you only ever THINK ABOUT a separate self?

Just notice.. this separate self is just a ghost. It simply doesn’t exist!

Do you have problems to find your hands? No? If there were a separate self it would be the easiest thing in the world to find it.

The reason that you cannot find it is simply because it has NEVER existed.
A non-existent entity cannot be found. And it will never be found. Ever.

Just as no matter how much you think about the Tooth Fairy, no matter how much you imagine her, you will never ever be able to find her. Why? Because she has never existed. She is just a fictional character told to children. Just as the separate self is a fictional character told by adults.

Looking I don't see any past or any now. Its just what is sensed ad thoughts about an imagined past and future and ? an imagined now (because even saying now implies a past and a future ?)

Future and past are never ever sensed. Since ONLY sensations can be sensed / felt.
Future and past will only ever be THOUGHT OF.
That’s all.
All there is to the future and the past are the thought stories ABOUT them. Nothing else.

For example if a burgular broke into our house and threatened me with a gun and then maybe shot me I would think that was a bad situation - but of course this is all imagination. That is not happening. So in that sense I am scaring myslef again with thoughts...

Yes, you are scarring yourself with thoughts! It’s your doing.

I am NEVER upset for the reason I think.
I am upset because I see something that is not there.
And what is that is not there? Fantasies, imaginations.
It’s impossible that reality could scare me.
Reality can only ever bring peace.

If there is no peace than that is a sure sign that you are entertaining an internal fictional movie which has nothing to do with the here and now experience.

But some situations are bad for the body for example or bad for Mike's situation

Mike has no situation! Why? Mike is not there. Mike has never been anything else than a thought idea.
There is no difference between Mike and Batman. Both of them are just fictional characters in a story.

Vivien

[Mike1001]

Hi Vivien

Again sorry its taken a while to get back to you - I've been looking and working at it:)

But I have a belief that something can. When I look now its the body and the emotional state and the future that I believe can be threatened.

Emotional state can be threatened? Are you sure?

looking now - emotional state is a phrase - two words used to describe a state - like anger/happiness/regret/boredom/contentment for example. The state itself cant be threatened. It can change. I think my mistake is in thinking there is an I who can influence states (like fear or the lack of it).

What is the experience of ‘emotional state’? Is there such thing?

Just different emotions - that are associated with different sensations.

Or all there is are sensations + thoughts stories floating around ABOUT an imagined character called me?

yes looking now I can see that the states/emotions just change according to what is happening and to what beliefs are held.
I'll look again now:

right now there are sensations sounds thoughts emotions and what I can see. Thoughts yes about Mike, about a future that yes I can only see in thoughts and a past that is also only in thoughts. I can see this. There is the thought that I, Mike is making some effort to think and type. It is just there. Along with various other thoughts in the story of Mike about the future.

And how could be the future threatened?
Do you believe that there is such thing as future?

When I look - like right now I can find no future apart from the future in thoughts. It is always now. I have a memory of talking to my neighbour a few minutes ago. I could say this happened in the past but I don't really know what that means. Everyone else re-enforces the idea that there is a past and a future. I have memories/thoughts of things happening in the past, and that one thing seemed to follow another (for example I remember going to the supermarket, buying some food then eating it in that order).

But I can never find the past or future anywhere except in these thoughts.

So I can't find the future anywhere, but my everyday life seems to be run by time. I have to get to work for a certain time, if I realize my parking ticket is going to run out in a few minutes I rush back so I won't get a fine for running over my allotted time.

But right now no I can't see any future or past.

Look closely. There is no such thing as future. Future is totally a man-made artificial concept without any roots in reality.

Future is nothing else than a thought story happening NOW. Can you see this?

A thought came up - in a few minutes I have to go pick up my daughter from school. I am looking now for that future - I can picture it happening as a thought. But I also know that it is always now - or this. Its never anything but what is happening and thoughts (about a future and past). But yes the future and the past are never experienced (except as thoughts).

I can't see time. My mind cant understand it. If it is manmade why do we have to believe in it?

but yes there is still a belief that the body is mine
We often say ‘MY body’ – so what is it that owns the body?

as far as I can see the belief that the body belongs to a me comes from fear. Because here there is a belief in a separate I that somehow inhabits a physical body that is very vulnerable to harm. That belief in a separate I with a body that can be harmed makes the mind/thoughts focus in on possible threats to the body and how they can be prevented.

I can see this happening with me.

I look for the me that owns the body...

and find thoughts- the internal voice speaking as I write these words - this voice is not aware. There is a belief that the voice is me/mine but it cannot be me because when it stops I am still here. So the voice that is talking now can't own the body. Aside from that there are sensations around the area of my face and head. The sensations change with different emotions and thoughts - I can feel them take on different expressions. There is also a belief that they are somehow me.

But looking now I can see that these sensations are not aware (and surely I am aware?). There is no way that the sensations can own anything.

Aside from that I can't find anything that owns the body, but there is a belief that I am inside the body looking out and that the body is a bit like my house that needs to be protected.

The view from here is ( as far as I can tell) centered on this body - I mean right now I can see objects in the room around me. Looking down I can see my body - arms legs torso. I can't find a separate I here but what is sensed seems to eb received here.

And how do you know that the body is owned?

Why do I believe there is an I who owns this body? Because everything that is sensed is (as far as I can tell) received here and because I keep forgetting that actions the body takes are automatic. So for example I see myself rushing to get a parking space and believe I am making the effort and that if this effort is mien then the body must be as well.

I will look more at actions of the body...

What is it that claims ‘MY body’?

I can't find anything. Its just the internal voice, the sensations neither of which are aware or any kind of entity that could claim anything. But there feels like there is some me here still...

What is is that is trying? What is is that is fearful?

I don't know - the thoughts/beliefs which triggers fear just happen.

Right now if I look for who is trying: I am clenching my hand - trying to do it as hard as I can. I can feel the tension. I can see the hand clenched. I am aware of thoughts that came up suggesting doing this. Now as I write this there are feelings of tension/contraction coming and going and more thoughts. Who is doing this trying? Yes at this moment I can see thoughts about trying coming up (to see what I want to see), and muscular tension happening on and off. Thoughts saying I am doing this well or not well. Thoughts saying I am getting somewhere or not.

I can't find who is trying. Actually now the more I look at what I believe is me - sensations/expressions in the face , the internal voice the more the idea weakens.

What is it that is fearful - I think this is a really useful question. There is still fear that Mike/I won't be able to look after his daughter for example or not care for her or that his life will fall into chaos if he/I see that there is no separate I in control. And a fear of disappearing still.

But lookign now to see who has these fears...

There is the body that can be seen - hands typing, arms, torso - none of these are fearful - they are not aware. There are sensations - in the body - legs, abdomen shoulders - they are not aware of anything - they cannot be afraid of anything.

Then there are sensations in the head and face. They tighten and losen and change with different emotions but are not afraid - how can a physical sensation be afraid.

Then there are thoughts and emotions.

First the emotions themselves - fear. I am not sure exactly what it is. There is a thought about something bad happening - an image or mental movie then fear comes. As far as I can tell it starts as a thought then becomes physical.

But I can't find who is fearful.

You have clothes, right? But what is owning them?

I usually say I own this shirt or those trousers.

What is that makes the clothes “mine”?

I went tot he shop and bought them and wear them so I say they are mine and other people treat them as mine.

What is that claims the clothes to be “MY clothes”?

the thought comes up these are my clothes. I can't find the I who says it. Its just a thought that comes up because of the belief in a separate me, Mike acting independently and possessing or being in a body that needs protection - and needs clothes.

I can see fear linked to this because of the belief in the separate Mike.

Does the seeming ‘voice in the head’, the commentator, owns the clothes?

No for sure not - it/he doesn't own clothes and is not aware. I realize that when Iook but then who is realizing that there the internal voice is not aware?

Do thoughts own the clothes?

no impossibe - they are not aware of anything. They are not entities that could own anything.

Does the thought ‘mine’ owns the clothes?

no same reason.

Does word/thought Mike owns the clothes?

No the thought Mike does not own clothes.

and how do you know that the body is owned?

when i look at the body(or maybe i should say when the body is looked at) a feelign /thought comes up this is mine. looking now at my/the hand the palm looks smooth, the skin strong - a good feeling comes up (but there is fear below it that it may will not stay healthy.)

Turning the hand over and looking at the other side I notice (it is noticed?) that right now the back of the hand looks relatively unblemished but a memory comes up of it looking older (the day before/at some earlier time in memory). And a memory of the different emotions seeing that triggered (worry re aging etc).

Do the emotion thoughts arise because there is a belief that the hand belongs to a separate Mike who lives in and is part of this body?

It comes back to the belief of a me in the body controlling it and needing it to survive.


still looking at this...

Please make sure that you don’t think about the answers.
Thinking is in a way of SEEING how things actually are.
Just NOTICE what is here that is owning the body.

ok doing this and will continue now - noticing what is here owning the body...

emotional states there is a strong desire to avoid certain emotions

What does emotions happen TO?

I don't know. I seem to still be convinced that I am in the body and of the body and that the emotions happen to me in the body despite the fact that I can't find any separate sentient me or have any idea what it/I would look like. And how could I see me. Looking now I can feel sensations of tightness in the jaw and temples and sense/see this belief/fear that I have to hold on.

Is there a REAL Mike who FEELS emotions?

if I say that that reality (as far as i know) what can be sensed and that thought is imagination. Then all that can be sensed is the body and what is happening now around me. Thoughts and emotions are here but none of them add up to a real/separate Mike. I have no idea what a real separate Mike would be.


Or there are only emotions floating around without being anchored to anyone, without happening to anything or anyone?
there are sensations labelled as me and a belief in a separate me existing somewhere

But what is your proof for this separate self existing somewhere?

Have you EVER encountered a separate self? EVER?

reading this now I realize I will never find any separate self. What on earth could it look like? I already know what I can see, hear, touch and what I think (in pictures/words) and what emotions I feel. Yes I know that there are layers adn layers of thoughts and beliefs which aren't always seen - but I cannot believe them some separate me will emerge from this. Also I can't understand how a separate me - I could look at a separate me.

What about whatever receives all of this - is that me/us/I? Not a separate me or anything but awareness of everything? (I know we looked at this before but just examining it again).

But that would mean that there would have to be a me of some kind looking at awareness?

I know awareness is just a word. How can it be something? There isn't anything there? Just a process of seeing?

Or you only ever THINK ABOUT a separate self?

Yes yes that is it. I only think about me, Mike - all the time in every thought and action. Protecting me, my body my family and my future.

I have never seen it.

How could I.

Just notice.. this separate self is just a ghost. It simply doesn’t exist!

Do you have problems to find your hands? No? If there were a separate self it would be the easiest thing in the world to find it.

The reason that you cannot find it is simply because it has NEVER existed.
A non-existent entity cannot be found. And it will never be found. Ever.

Just as no matter how much you think about the Tooth Fairy, no matter how much you imagine her, you will never ever be able to find her. Why? Because she has never existed. She is just a fictional character told to children. Just as the separate self is a fictional character told by adults.

ok thank you Vivien - this is sinking in. I know you have explained this many times - the more I truly look the better I see it.

Looking I don't see any past or any now. Its just what is sensed ad thoughts about an imagined past and future and ? an imagined now (because even saying now implies a past and a future ?)

Future and past are never ever sensed. Since ONLY sensations can be sensed / felt.

yes got it.

Future and past will only ever be THOUGHT OF.
That’s all.
All there is to the future and the past are the thought stories ABOUT them. Nothing else.

yes right now I can see that - whenever I look. But in day to day life I behave as if the future exists and plan for it etc or rush to start work on time. So in reality yes all i see is this - what can be sensed and thoughts coming up about future/past/me etc. but this mind/body whatever it is behaves as if time does exist in reality.

For example if a burgular broke into our house and threatened me with a gun and then maybe shot me I would think that was a bad situation - but of course this is all imagination. That is not happening. So in that sense I am scaring myslef again with thoughts...

Yes, you are scarring yourself with thoughts! It’s your doing.

I am NEVER upset for the reason I think.
I am upset because I see something that is not there.
And what is that is not there? Fantasies, imaginations.
It’s impossible that reality could scare me.
Reality can only ever bring peace.

If there is no peace than that is a sure sign that you are entertaining an internal fictional movie which has nothing to do with the here and now experience.

ok thank you for this

But some situations are bad for the body for example or bad for Mike's situation

Mike has no situation! Why? Mike is not there. Mike has never been anything else than a thought idea.
There is no difference between Mike and Batman. Both of them are just fictional characters in a story.

ok looking at this again today.


Thanks again Vivien - I really appreciate your patience and help :)


Mike

[Vivien]

Hi Mike,

This reply is going to be long.

I think my mistake is in thinking there is an I who can influence states (like fear or the lack of it).

Yes, you imagine that there is a real Mike, a real me, who is feeling emotions and can be hurt by them. But is there?
Or is this just a story presented by thoughts?

But I can never find the past or future anywhere except in these thoughts.

Exactly! The past and the future are just mental constructs, appearing as thoughts NOW.

So I can't find the future anywhere, but my everyday life seems to be run by time. I have to get to work for a certain time, if I realize my parking ticket is going to run out in a few minutes I rush back so I won't get a fine for running over my allotted time.

But who has a life? Who is going to work? Is there a real entity somewhere inside the body, who uses the body’s legs to go to work?

I can't see time. My mind cant understand it. If it is manmade why do we have to believe in it?

It doesn’t need to be believed in. That’s the whole point. Isn’t believing it just learned habit from others?
But is there an actual WE, you and me, who is believing in concepts?
Is there an actual Mike / I believing in the concept of time?

Or all that happens, that a story arises ABOUT a Mike, who is believing in time?

If Batman believes in time in the story about Batman, is that believing magically change the fictional character, Batman, into a real entity?

and find thoughts- the internal voice speaking as I write these words - this voice is not aware. There is a belief that the voice is me/mine but it cannot be me because when it stops I am still here. So the voice that is talking now can't own the body.

Nice observations.

Aside from that I can't find anything that owns the body, but there is a belief that I am inside the body looking out and that the body is a bit like my house that needs to be protected.

We are not just simply investigation if I am inside the body, but if there is an I at all in the first place? Can you see the difference?

What if there is no I at all? What if there is only the body, but there is no I whatsoever?

And, HOW do you know that there is an I inside the body? Where does this information come from?
And what is the experiential proof? How is this proven?

The view from here is ( as far as I can tell) centered on this body - I mean right now I can see objects in the room around me.

Here is the misperception. You say “I can see objects in the room around ME” – but you are talking about the body. Objects are around the body, but not around a ME.

The body is NOT a me.
The body is just a body.
Only thoughts mislabel the body as a ‘me’.
This is just an error in perception. Can you see this?

Why do I believe there is an I who owns this body? Because everything that is sensed is (as far as I can tell) received here and because I keep forgetting that actions the body takes are automatic.

Seeing that actions happen automatically is not something to remember. It it’s forgotten, then it’s not really seen. If it’s forgotten, then it’s just intellectual understood, but not really seen.

So for example I see myself rushing to get a parking space and believe I am making the effort and that if this effort is mien then the body must be as well.

But this is simply not possible.

There is no I that is rushing to get a parking space… this is just a story provided by thoughts… LOOK there is NO I!
The I only every shows up in thoughts… as a fictional character, and NOT as a real entity.

I can't find anything. Its just the internal voice, the sensations neither of which are aware or any kind of entity that could claim anything. But there feels like there is some me here still...

Careful with assumptions, the "it seems like...".

we often think or say the phrase “it feels like” or “it seems like”. These phrases usually point to a thought not to a sensation. A sensation would be when you pinch yourself and then you really bodily, physically feel something.
So the "It feels like the I is here." appears as content of a thought.

"I feel like" = "I think that…"

What we are investigating here that what is it exactly that we take for an I. Since intellectually we already know that there is no real I outside of the realm of thoughts, and yet it can SEEM like as if there were an I. So there must be something or several different things that we mistake for an I.

We are looking at the SEEMS TO BE and have a look if that's true, we do look how the story is created and maintained and why it is so credible.

Right now if I look for who is trying: I am clenching my hand - trying to do it as hard as I can.

What if this is not how it is?

What if instead of ‘I look for who is trying’, there is just looking for who is trying happens automatically, without an I making it happen?

Instead of “I am clenching my hand” – the hand is clenched spontaneously on its own.

Instead of “trying to do as hard as I can” – trying is happening spontaneously, and thought comes it and labels this spontaneous arising as ‘I try as hard as I can”…? just notice, only thoughts talk about an I… in experience there is no I doing anything.

I can feel the tension

What if there is no I feeling tension? What if there is only tension free-floating, without belonging to anything?

. I can see the hand clenched

What if there is only the seeing or noticing of the hand being clenched automatically, but it’s not done by an I.. it’s not done by anything?

I am aware of thoughts that came up suggesting doing this

What if there is just the awareness of thoughts, but without an I being aware?

Now as I write

What if writing is just happening without an I making it happen?

Yes at this moment I can see thoughts about trying coming up

What if there is only the spontaneous noticing of thoughts, but it’s not done by anyone?

What is it that is fearful - I think this is a really useful question. There is still fear that Mike/I won't be able to look after his daughter for example or not care for her or that his life will fall into chaos if he/I see that there is no separate I in control. And a fear of disappearing still.

What if this assumption/fear is totally unfounded?
Can you be open to the possibility that you might be wrong about this?

What if this is just a fearful story thought of thousands of times again and again, in loops, like a broken record?
Isn’t this just a make-believe

ALWAYS check what is just happening in thought, and what is direct experience. This is essential.

There is no self, no future or past, just this moment. Since this never been any different and life happened and plan making happened, and solution happened, the same will go on when this is seen so. Nothing fundamental will change. It’s not possible. There has never ever been an I doing anything, and yet everything happened and get done.

This fear is holding you back to really see what is happening.

What if you are just fooling yourself with this belief? What if you are afraid on a fantasy only?

There is a thought about something bad happening - an image or mental movie then fear comes. As far as I can tell it starts as a thought then becomes physical.

Look at this carefully. Isn’t this story way too familiar? Can you tell how many times have this or some similar thoughts in your life? Ten thousand? Hundred thousand? A million times?

What if this fearful story is just a conditioned pattern playing itself out again and again and again, like a big thought merry-go-round going in circles, almost endlessly?

Can you see that this is just a pattern? It’s just a habit you’ve learned or developed at early age?

But I can't find who is fearful.

Exactly! Since there is no one to be afraid. Fear doesn’t happen to anyone. It’s just a free-floating sensation + story without belonging to anyone.

I went tot he shop and bought them and wear them so I say they are mine and other people treat them as mine.

Isn’t this just another story? Can you see that this is no looking?

I realize that when Iook but then who is realizing that there the internal voice is not aware?

What if realization just happens automatically, just as wind and rain happens on their own, without a rainer or a winder?

I know awareness is just a word. How can it be something? There isn't anything there? Just a process of seeing?

Yes, there is no entity that is aware. Awareness is not a noun, it’s not an entity being aware. Rather it’s a verb… it’s just knowing or noticing of what is happening, without a knower or awarer.

Vivien

[Mike1001]

Hi Vivien

Hope you are well :) Again I'm sorry about the late reply. I am very grateful for your patience with me. I'm still looking - I let it go in the background for a while but have been looking more actively again the last few days. As before I feel like I'm almost there. I did read a few of the threads on the liberation site - but didn't spend too long on this - hope this is ok.

Yes, you imagine that there is a real Mike, a real me, who is feeling emotions and can be hurt by them. But is there?
Or is this just a story presented by thoughts?
But I can never find the past or future anywhere except in these thoughts.
Exactly! The past and the future are just mental constructs, appearing as thoughts NOW.
So I can't find the future anywhere, but my everyday life seems to be run by time. I have to get to work for a certain time, if I realize my parking ticket is going to run out in a few minutes I rush back so I won't get a fine for running over my allotted time.
But who has a life? Who is going to work? Is there a real entity somewhere inside the body, who uses the body’s legs to go to work?

Ok I cannot find this entity and I do not believe that I will ever find a separate entity here who is making decisions.

If I look right now there fingers moving typing. The is a body - a jumper. There is a bed. There is a laptop. There is no separate I making decisions in these things.

There are sensations in the face (that cannot be seen). The sensations are felt as tightness or contractions and relaxation. They change.

If I ask now are these sensations me? There are obviously not me (a separate controller). They are not aware. They are not making decisions. They cannot be an independent/separate me/I.

So that leaves thoughts and emotions and the idea of the seer/looker here.

As this is being typed thoughts are running. The internal voice i speaking. There is a belief (when unexamined) that the voice is mine and that I am thinking and deciding what to write and not to write.

Just examining this -

Typing is happening - writing is happening - this can all be sensed.

Sensations in the face are happening and changing.

Thoughts are coming up along with emotions and sensations. So there is thinking and emotioning.

For example I wasn't sure if emotioning was the right word or something I made up - for some reason that thought was followed by a sigh - but no clear judgement thought.

But more correctly this sentence would read: There was a thought about the word emotioning and if it was a real word or not and then a sigh and an emotion came up. As this happened a thought /belief arose that I am having these feelings/thoughts.

So the reality is I am not thinking about the word emotioning but that thinking about emotioing is going on and because of a belief in a separate me / I that thinkign is labelled as mine after it occurs.

I can't see time. My mind cant understand it. If it is manmade why do we have to believe in it?
It doesn’t need to be believed in. That’s the whole point. Isn’t believing it just learned habit from others?
But is there an actual WE, you and me, who is believing in concepts?
Is there an actual Mike / I believing in the concept of time?

Or all that happens, that a story arises ABOUT a Mike, who is believing in time?

If Batman believes in time in the story about Batman, is that believing magically change the fictional character, Batman, into a real entity?

No of course Batman remains a fictional character whatever he (the character) believes. And fictional here means his story happens - but it happens automatically and not to any real separate person/entity. So the story of batman happens but is empty/not real/fictional.

What if there is no I at all? What if there is only the body, but there is no I whatsoever?

I know you've said this before - and this is what we are looking at - whether or not there is any evidence in reality for an I/me other than the fictional character of Mike.

(I know we have to use language to communicate but even that sentence - I know you've said this before is wrong isnt it? I don't know anything if there is no real separate I. There words /thoughts saying that. There is a body that can be sensed. But I can't know if there is no separate I?)

Sorry back to the question - There is only the body and no (real) I whatsoever...

Wow! As I said I know this is what we have been looking at all along but there is some cant quite believe it/fear that comes up. And a feeling labelled as disconnection.

Again I think this is linked to the thought/fear of losing control and disppearing and not taking care of my family or hurting them in some way by not relating to them properly.

there is a thought if there are just fictional chracters like me what does it matter? But I think this is where I have to trust.
Can I ask Vivien if you had any fears/problems like this before fully seeing this?

And, HOW do you know that there is an I inside the body? Where does this information come from?

I don't know - just learned from others.

The body is NOT a me.
The body is just a body.
Only thoughts mislabel the body as a ‘me’.
This is just an error in perception. Can you see this?

I am looking looking - right now as I look again it seems as if I am almost accepting it.

There is no I that is rushing to get a parking space… this is just a story provided by thoughts… LOOK there is NO I!
The I only every shows up in thoughts… as a fictional character, and NOT as a real entity.

Yes I can see this - it is only on thought. I will never find an I.

What if instead of ‘I look for who is trying’, there is just looking for who is trying happens automatically, without an I making it happen?

Instead of “I am clenching my hand” – the hand is clenched spontaneously on its own.

Instead of “trying to do as hard as I can” – trying is happening spontaneously, and thought comes it and labels this spontaneous arising as ‘I try as hard as I can”…? just notice, only thoughts talk about an I… in experience there is no I doing anything.

Looking now. I clenched my hand. The thought/impulse to do it came up automatically. Then the decision to do it happened. Yes I can find no one making the decision. Then yes I can see thoughts come up about trying or not trying.

I can feel the tension
What if there is no I feeling tension? What if there is only tension free-floating, without belonging to anything?

I don't know. Everything would be just the same as before but also completely different because it would be viewed differently. If there is no I trying to do things - or to feel tension - just trying and feeling tension happening then... it does seem like complete freedom.

I am aware of thoughts that came up suggesting doing this
What if there is just the awareness of thoughts, but without an I being aware?

so thoughts are known - or there is knowing of thoughts. that must be true because they are experienced (but without an experiencer.)

As I look at this I realize I will never find a separate I - what could it be? How could I see it/hear it or feel it? I could think about it. Imagine it - but then I would have to ask who is imagining the I! The asking could go on and on.

So why do I still feel like I am me /Mike? As you say lower down it must be fear holding me back from seeing the obvious.

What is it that is fearful - I think this is a really useful question. There is still fear that Mike/I won't be able to look after his daughter for example or not care for her or that his life will fall into chaos if he/I see that there is no separate I in control. And a fear of disappearing still.
What if this assumption/fear is totally unfounded?
Can you be open to the possibility that you might be wrong about this?

Yes I can be open to that possibility - that I might be wrong and that seeing (fully) that there is no separate I/Mike will not destroy the life of the character Mike.

-(Mike being a fictional character in a movie like Batman with no individual will or self-awareness)

What if this is just a fearful story thought of thousands of times again and again, in loops, like a broken record?

that would be very good news :)

Isn’t this just a make-believe

I have no direct experience that the behaviour of the fictional character Mike will change as a result of full acceptance that Mike is fictional happening. On occasion I have felt a feeling of disjointedness when asking the question
: is this me? repeatedly - and felt that I am relating to my wife and daughter differently somehow (more awkwardly). And of course I have heard and read stories of this happening in the past (like in Jed Mckenna's book). And thoughts about this come up at times.

But checkign now - any fears about what might happen are of course just thoughts - imagination.

ALWAYS check what is just happening in thought, and what is direct experience. This is essential.

Yes - its true in direct experience there is just what can be sensed - seen, heard, felt and thoughts /emotions.

There is no self, no future or past, just this moment.

Wow -

Since this never been any different and life happened and plan making happened, and solution happened, the same will go on when this is seen so. Nothing fundamental will change. It’s not possible.


There has never ever been an I doing anything, and yet everything happened and get done.

This fear is holding you back to really see what is happening.

Yes I think I can see this.

What if you are just fooling yourself with this belief? What if you are afraid on a fantasy only?

It would quite a joke - as they say a kind of cosmic joke - but also freedom.

There is a thought about something bad happening - an image or mental movie then fear comes. As far as I can tell it starts as a thought then becomes physical.
Look at this carefully. Isn’t this story way too familiar? Can you tell how many times have this or some similar thoughts in your life? Ten thousand? Hundred thousand? A million times?

Yes mental image/thought and fear reactions over and over.

What if this fearful story is just a conditioned pattern playing itself out again and again and again, like a big thought merry-go-round going in circles, almost endlessly?

Can you see that this is just a pattern? It’s just a habit you’ve learned or developed at early age?

Yes at times I can see it is just a pattern.

Thanks again Vivien for your ongoing patience, best wishes
Mike

[Vivien]

Hi Mike,

(I know we have to use language to communicate but even that sentence - I know you've said this before is wrong isnt it? I don't know anything if there is no real separate I. There words /thoughts saying that. There is a body that can be sensed. But I can't know if there is no separate I?)

Something that does not exist cannot be looked at with a conclusion it doesn’t exist.

However, you can look and SEE that what it is exactly that is mistaken for a me. And that mistake can be clearly seen.

What can be looked at and seen what is taken as the self, the I. What we will do is learn how the story of the self is built and woven and how it gets its strong credibility. We will check all actions and what this idea of a self is supposed to be able to do, and then to check if these are myths or reality.

Again I think this is linked to the thought/fear of losing control and disppearing and not taking care of my family or hurting them in some way by not relating to them properly.

Can you see that this is nothing else than a recurring mental movie, which plays itself out in loops, like a broken record?

What if when the thoughts of fear come up you ask questions like:

Did these thoughts about fear happen before? The exact ones? Very similar ones?
Check if there is a new thought about fear. If not, then it is nothing but regurgitation, the chewing through of the same stuff again and again in a repeat loop.
What does this tell you?

Can I ask Vivien if you had any fears/problems like this before fully seeing this?

Some minor, but not like you have. If you look at your fears, your fears in NOT about seeing that there is no self at the core.

Your fear is part of your everyday life, regardless of this inquiry, isn’t it?

The fear of not being able to take care of your family is ALREADY part of your life and has nothing to do with this inquiry, right?

The fear of not being able to control circumstances, your life, your finances, is also part of your everyday fears, independent of this injury, isn’t it?

Just as fear of losing control over your body (due to the virus) or your freedom, is already part of your life, regardless of this inquiry, isn’t it?

Can you see that you are just projecting your everyday beliefs and fears onto this inquiry?

That this inquiry is totally ‘innocent’, only your projections makes it something ‘bad’ or ‘fearful’?

There is no self, no future or past, just this moment. Since this never been any different and life happened and plan making happened, and solution happened, the same will go on when the self is seen to be a myth.

Is wanting to control things something you do or something that shows up?

Is making plans something you do, or something that just happens?

As I look at this I realize I will never find a separate I - what could it be? How could I see it/hear it or feel it? I could think about it. Imagine it - but then I would have to ask who is imagining the I! The asking could go on and on.

So why do I still feel like I am me /Mike? As you say lower down it must be fear holding me back from seeing the obvious.

Because you still believe those thoughts that mislabel certain innocent sensations and calls them ‘me/I’.
You SEEMINGLY feel an I, because there is an actual FEELING / SENSATION being felt.
But you don’t see that what is felt is just a sensation… since you believe the label ‘it’s me’.

Question the label… yes there is a sensation…. but what makes this sensation into a me?
Can you see that all there is to Mike is a story, an internal movie and some mislabelled, mistaken sensations?

V: What if this is just a fearful story thought of thousands of times again and again, in loops, like a broken record?

M: that would be very good news :)

But can’t you see it? Can you SEE that this is a broken record in loops?

Take a piece of paper.
Whenever you have a stressful or fearful thought, write it down.
Every time you have a same thought which is already on the paper, make a mark next to that sentence.
At the end of the day or a week, count the number of marks next to each thought.
Can you see the pattern?
Can you see that you have the same thoughts, almost identical thoughts, again and again, day by day, week by week, year by year?

Vivien

[Mike1001]

Hi Vivien

Hope you’re well :)

I’ve not replied for some time as I seemed to be stuck, but I keep being drawn or pushed back to this ( looking ).

I think there is some fear thereabout letting go but I want to get past it.

Would it be possible to go back over some of the earlier questions together again or if you think I’m a lost cause :) maybe I could hook up with another guide...

Thanks again for all your help so far
Mike

[Vivien]

Hi Mike,

It's not clear for me what it is you wold like exactly. Would you like to continue with me, or rather you'd like to have another guide?

Vivien

[Mike1001]

Hi Vivien

thanks for getting back to me.

I’m not 100% sure and also not sure what is allowed on liberation unleashed. There is some block to ‘me’ seeing
and accepting and living from seeing there is no me here running the show.

I think/see that is mostly fear of the unknown or giving up/losing everything (my ‘self’ /my personality/my ‘me) that ‘I’ ( I don’t know who) has identified with for ‘all my life’ (which only exists as far as ‘I’ can tell in memories.

As we’ve not been talking for abut I’ve been reading a little - my mind wants ( or there is an urge / desire) for some kind of reassurance that there is something to hold onto ( that everything won’t disappear) also thatI won’t stop looking after my family or that I won’t hurt them by changing into a different person.

I’ve looked at some of the teachings that talk about awareness ( all this stuff about life playing out on a screen) . As you say Vivian there is no screen to be seen - no awareness that can be seen/ perceived - unless somehow it is in what is seen/heard/felt.

So I feel stuck - on the edge. ‘My thoughts ‘ around the current situation with the response to the virus are I think pushing ‘me’ towards looking more and more.

After having looked around again I think liberation unleashed is as far as ‘I’ can see the most direct and focused group around helping us to see the truth.

So... I would like to continue but dont know if another guide might help or not ( to get over these fears)

I’d be grateful to know what you think

With much appreciation
Mike

[Vivien]

Hi Mike,

I think/see that is mostly fear of the unknown or giving up/losing everything (my ‘self’ /my personality/my ‘me) that ‘I’ ( I don’t know who) has identified with for ‘all my life’ (which only exists as far as ‘I’ can tell in memories.

But non of these will be lost. Your personality stays almost completely intact. The thing is that you are frightening yourself with these beliefs. And the truth is that there is nobody on this planet who could take away these fears from you. No guide will be able to that. Since it doesn’t depend on the guide, it doesn’t depend on anybody else, but you.

You are the one creating fearful movies, you are the one believing them, thus only you can look at them and see that they are untrue. You might be hoping that a different guide can do that, but that is not possible. You are the one holding onto your fearful story, and only you can let them go.

Currently, 17 people waiting for a guide to start in inquiry, and almost every day there are new people sighing up. There aren’t many guides.

So I feel stuck - on the edge. ‘My thoughts ‘ around the current situation with the response to the virus are I think pushing ‘me’ towards looking more and more.

Do you know Byron Katie? She has an inquiry into emotions and beliefs. That inquiry could be fantastic to question any of your fears, either about seeing no self, or anything about the virus. It’s called ‘The Work’, and there are lots of youtube videos on how to do. I suggest to have a look.

Vivien

[Mike1001]

Hi Vivien

Thanks a lot for your reply which I appreciate. I know there are other ppl waiting but I am sincere in seeing this - the fears I think are share by many and they don’t generally feel overwhelming but just block me - and seen Ilana talking to ppl in lib unleashedre this fear ( guiding them to look below behind it). I don’t think a guide can get rid of the fear for me but direct guide me to help myself look to what is behind it.


Would there be any chance of at least trying another guide? I’m not keen on looking at more videos as I’ve spent years doing that and conversing with a guide is I think much more effective.

Thanks again
Mike

[Vivien]

Hi Mike,

Yes. I will talk to other guides, and if there is someone available, they will respond here on this thread.
But it might take some time.

Vivien