Why do I feel I exist when I know that I don't?

[Dave]

Odemira,

So has the shift happened, have you SEEN through the illusion of a self?

Honestly, I don't know what a "shift" feels/looks like, but I would say no a shift hasn't happened.

I need a couple days to see how I feel, does that make sense? Something seems different, in a VERY subtle way. It isn't so much as illusion has been seen through and I no longer feel like a "me", more that I don't believe the "me" thought now, like it's mortally wounded and ran off somewhere to die! And I don't seem to care all that much that a shift hasn't happened, or even that it doesn't need to happen. I would say I'm confused except that confusion is not knowing but feeling like you need to know, but I'm not really all that concerned about knowing/understanding right now.

How are you feeling? What's happened to the burning frustration?

I feel fine, just very "normal" in that I'm still operating as "me", but do I really feel like "me"? Hmmmm I'm not sure haha! sorry to be so vague. No frustration, burning or otherwise. "I" is a fiction, period! Even if I feel like "I" I know it isn't true, so it doesn't seem all that important now.

If so when and how did that happen?

Something happened here somewhere....

odemira wrote:
Ah yes, it's common for there to be some fears lurking when we start looking into the non-existence of the self. The fear is there to protect something - what is it protecting, Dave?


Haha! I didn't know the answer, and then 'POP!' there it was! the fear is protecting me, or rather the erroneous belief of me. the unconscious thought being something like -If I don't get this then..........etc, etc.-

odemira wrote:
What's the worst that could happen if you don't get this? And what's the worst that can happen if you do get this?


Hmmm, the worst thing that could happen if I don't get this?...... My immediate response would be that I'd be stuck as I am. But that answer makes no sense, in fact the question - either of the questions for that matter - make no sense and actually just dissolve with the realization that there is no one to get anything!

I can't explain what exactly, I didn't even recognize fear until you pointed it out, but fear of what? Fear of losing what doesn't exist? To someone with my logic that was a big hit!!

Are you ready for our final questions, or is there more clearing away to be done?

I don't feel like I'm there yet, but it's been an exhausting few days, what with the intensity of working with you, a busier schedule than usual, and the fact that I haven't slept well in a few days, I'm a little hazy. Tomorrow is a very busy day also, I'll probably be less tired after that.

I intuit that your response to this is going to be very meaningful to me. Ask me again after that? :P

I'd like to say I'm a very happy guy right now, but I really don't feel like I need to be happy anymore. I mean, what IS happy anyway, other than someone thinking "I'm happy?" Life is what it is, and at least for the moment I don't have a wish for it to be anything else!

Thanks Odemira!! <3

Dave :)

[odemira]

Hi Dave,

Just a short reply, as you're wanting a few days to see how this settles. And what is THIS that is settling? - You've answered that below:

I really don't feel like I need to be happy anymore. I mean, what IS happy anyway, other than someone thinking "I'm happy?" Life is what it is, and at least for the moment I don't have a wish for it to be anything else!

Beautifully said!

Hear from you in a few days,
with love
Odemira

[Dave]

Hi Odemira,

The deal was that I would post every day, so here I am.

I don't honestly know what is happening, the whistling in my ears seems almost constant now, and I feel strange, different physically, more relaxed. Yesterday was a very odd day, and I decided that that was the day when my search was over, now I'm not sure again, I still feel like I have work to do, I intuit that I'll have work to do for the rest of my life?

Have I stepped through the gate? I don't think so. I still feel like me, but all the while that feels so unreal, like a lie. I think that the truth is I DON'T feel like me, but I have no concept to take me's place, no familiar solid ground. Also, doubts arise, but I really can't take them seriously, I know I don't exist, whatever my feelings say to the contrary.

I guess I expected things to look or feel different or something? Also, I was texting a friend last night and the texts from her stopped unexpectedly, and I knew she had to have driven home from work between the last text and the then present time....of course I was worried..... I guess I was expecting that I would no longer worry but apparently I still do :P

Still looking.......

Dave :)

[odemira]

Hi Dave,

Thanks for sticking to your side of the deal, even tho I know you're tired.

Remember, whatever is happening, from whistling ears to thoughts of doubt, it's all just what is happening, no doer, no control. All unfolding at its own pace.

I have no concept to take me's place, no familiar solid ground.

Yes, it can feel unsettling, because the mind wants to identify 'who is walking' etc - and the main label ('I') has been seen through as just a figment of imagination. So the mind's floundering a bit. To counteract this, just keep on repeating the looking for the 'I' whenever it arises as the subject of a thought. I remember laughing at just how ludicrous my 'I' was, wanting to take credit for things the body had done all by itself. Just keep seeing through the illusion and it falls away.

I guess I expected things to look or feel different or something?

That's just a thought, Dave. Where is the I that expects things to be as you want them to be?

I think that these accounts that we read of people who had amazing awakenings where their minds were wiped completely clean and they started seeing from oneness can be misleading - that was their experience and to judge ours as not the real deal in comparison if it's not like that blocks us from relaxing into what is unfolding naturally, at its own pace.

A big hurdle can be to let go of wanting to control what happens, which as you've seen is impossible. It really is a case of 'que sera sera, what will be will be'. Worry is a thought that says 'I want my friend to be ok'. So these thoughts still arise, and gradually we see through them - that's part of the ongoing deepening that happens.

Let me know how this is settling in.

with love
Odemira

[Dave]

Odemira,

I'm in a very dark place right now! I don't know if I'm more sad, angry, or embarrassed! Did I spend the last few days lying to myself? It all seemed so clear, there was no me, I, self, or any other descriptor for anything personal. "Me" was nothing more than an intellectual game, and was dismissed as such. I even told a couple of people that my search was over :(

Today as I lay in bed, feeling very much "me" again, the question arose "If there's experience, then SOMETHING must be experiencing it?" And that something is what "I" am.

I'm devastated, I have to get on with life, go to work, and put a face on for the world, and I'm completely depleted, I have nothing and I think I'm pretty close to going insane with this!

Sorry Odemira, I'm not a whiner, at least I never have been, but I HAVE to know the truth, I don't care what the cost is!!

CRAP!!

Dave.

[Dave]

Odemira,

Ok, to add to the post I made not an hour ago (maybe).

Now there is no "me" What the hell is happening? I'm looking at the post I made a few minutes ago and it's nonsense. I can see that intellectually there's an argument that experience needs an experiencer, but right now that's bullshit, as there is NO ME, well, there is but only as a thought, which just appears, all on it's own, no me doing it. My body is all fuzzy and 'alive' again, and that DAMN whistling is back.

Typing is happening, along with a though "I'm typing" ....... I guess the truth is this...... I feel like I'm typing, but I know that I'm not - that typing is happening and thought is labeling it as mine - But this isn't the same thing that I've BEEN experiencing, where there wasn't a "me", only as a thought, but not a FEELING, as such the thought was brushed aside effortlessly.

Is this real? I have to go get ready for work, this is going to be one crazy day!!

Dave.

[odemira]

Hi Dave,

You're on a crazy rollercoaster ride here, just relax and allow the experience to be, it's all ok. Probably just some readjustment going on in the brain. Actually, riding a bronco's a better analogy - the mind is trying to throw this realisation of no-self out by any means it can - hey, it's been attached to that idea for a good many years and it doesn't always let go that easily. Just relax, let it all flow through you, it will all pass and settle.

Odemira

[Dave]

Hi Odemira,

You're on a crazy rollercoaster ride here, just relax and allow the experience to be, it's all ok. Probably just some readjustment going on in the brain.

This morning I feel about back where I was before we started this thread, only now I'm exhausted!

Just relax, let it all flow through you, it will all pass and settle.

Yes, I need to take a break from the struggle, I'll be in touch tomorrow.

Thanks for being patient :)

Dave.

[Dave]

Hi Odemira,

Yay! I slept last night :)

I don't understand what happened the last few days, I thought I was through, but obviously I wasn't because apparently it's irreversible. All I know is, coming down from the experience and being consumed totally in the self again was not a fun ride.

This morning I feel "normal" again, which means I still feel like me, but I don't believe the thought, and as I've searched for and discounted the me so many times now, it's getting easier to get to a felt sense of "melessness".

I'm still full of self doubt though, I know the self is an illusion, but when I'm not seeing myself as "me" I feel like I'm deluding myself, just stopping thought, or rather, filling the space with an empty thought.

I need to keep looking......

Dave :)

[odemira]

Hi Dave,

Glad you slept!

I thought I was through, but obviously I wasn't because apparently it's irreversible.

Seeing through the illusion of no self is a realisation, like realising that Santa Claus was your father all along. Once that's seen, it can never be truly believed again. But sure, the mind can keep saying 'Are you sure he's not real?' For a while, but not for ever - you don't believe in Santa Claus now, I assume! At some point the belief fell away completely, never to return.

This morning I feel "normal" again, which means I still feel like me, but I don't believe the thought, and as I've searched for and discounted the me so many times now, it's getting easier to get to a felt sense of "melessness".

Let's look at what's happening here - there are a collection of sensations from the body > the mind wants to find a label for them, cos that's what the mind does > label = ME > thought - I don't believe there's a me > thought - let me look for a 'me' > attention on body/mind > no me is found > mind can't find a label > feeling of melessness. All an automatic process happening to no-one.

I'm still full of self doubt though, I know the self is an illusion, but when I'm not seeing myself as "me" I feel like I'm deluding myself, just stopping thought, or rather, filling the space with an empty thought.

Are you telling me the 'I'm the seeker who can't find it' story again? See how easy it is to believe the content of a thought! One thought arises, then the next, and before you know it the story's been created and bought into.

As you say, keep looking, keep not finding anything cos there is NOTHING TO FIND. YOU DON'T EXIST AND NEVER HAVE.

with love
Odemira

[Dave]

Hi Odemira,

Sorry, I have no time for a post today. Life happens!

Still looking....

Dave :)

[Dave]

Odemira,

I didn't know what to post, so this turned out to be more of a ramble, sorry :(

This morning there came the urge to go back to the beginning, and really take a close look at this "me". There has been a strong sense of 'backsliding' all week typified by a strong identification with/belief in "me" which seems to strongly encourage more of the same. as you said, it's all so easily bought into.

On looking this morning I couldn't find "me", the body and mind are just as much part of life as a tree, "me" is just a thought that appears and adheres to the above. It suddenly dawned on me that this whole week was unfolding naturally, with no me ever there - which of course there wasn't- that identification is just a game that life is playing.

It seems pretty calm right now, a thought appears "Why am I still struggling with this?" and then another "That's just a thought, there is no "I" to struggle, there never was". Both thoughts just appearing spontaneously, not my thoughts, there is no "I" that thinks.

Another though appears "When I leave this quiet place and go out into the world I'll get identified again". How does that happen? There is no "I" to "get identified"

Another thought "That's too much thinking, does it matter how that happens? Stay with what is!" "There is no I"

"Will I ever get this?"...... "There is no "I" to get anything". "Wait, all these thoughts aren't "my" thoughts, there is no me to think, there never was, "I" never had a thought, a doubt, I was never "identified".

There seems to be a constant "back and forth movement" it's almost like a battle. There's a calm that is here, but it's easily disturbed by an "I" thought. It seems to take constant vigilance to usurp the "I" and discount it before it gets a grip. But the key is to recognize that all the while this is happening to no one.

There's a fear that when the "I" wins out and takes hold through lack of vigilance, that it's power grows and the peace of "no self" is lessened. But all this happens to no one.

"This happens to no one" .....there's something in that which is wanting to be seen!.....................

Another though "I think too much, I know the answer isn't in thought, as there isn't an answer, I need to just stay in the awareness that there is no "me"......... Hmmm, there is no "I" that thinks too much, or to "stay aware".

When I try to figure this out, there are thoughts appearing, "trying to figure out" and a thought that says "I'm trying to figure this out". But all this happens without a "me" to figure, or not figure anything.

"Can't someone just take my hand and show me the way?" Hmph! no "me" to be shown anything!

UGH!!

Haha!

Dave :)

[odemira]

Hi Dave,

Thanks for the ramble! Gives me a clear picture of where you are ;)

On looking this morning I couldn't find "me", the body and mind are just as much part of life as a tree, "me" is just a thought that appears and adheres to the above. It suddenly dawned on me that this whole week was unfolding naturally, with no me ever there - which of course there wasn't- that identification is just a game that life is playing.

When you LOOK, notice what happens - no 'me' could be found AND another realisation appeared.

There seems to be a constant "back and forth movement" it's almost like a battle. There's a calm that is here, but it's easily disturbed by an "I" thought. It seems to take constant vigilance to usurp the "I" and discount it before it gets a grip. But the key is to recognize that all the while this is happening to no one.

Yes, to keep recognising it's happening to no one. As you say, this is like a battle, a battle of thoughts - so use the weapon that you know works - LOOKING. It’s easy to stop at the thought ‘the self’s not there’, and move on to the next thought. This is when you need to stop and use that weapon - look deeply into the place where the ‘I’ points to, let the realisation that there's nothing there sink in. So it's a practice of "I thought > no I thought > look deeply and check that's true". This is what will turn this from a series of mental skirmishes to the death blow!

with love
Odemira

[Dave]

Good morning Odemira,

On looking this morning I couldn't find "me", the body and mind are just as much part of life as a tree, "me" is just a thought that appears and adheres to the above. It suddenly dawned on me that this whole week was unfolding naturally, with no me ever there - which of course there wasn't- that identification is just a game that life is playing.

When you LOOK, notice what happens - no 'me' could be found AND another realisation appeared.

I'm sorry, I don't understand this. Are you meaning that there is no 'me', and also that there is no one looking for a 'me'?

Yes, to keep recognising it's happening to no one. As you say, this is like a battle, a battle of thoughts - so use the weapon that you know works - LOOKING. It’s easy to stop at the thought ‘the self’s not there’, and move on to the next thought. This is when you need to stop and use that weapon - look deeply into the place where the ‘I’ points to, let the realisation that there's nothing there sink in. So it's a practice of "I thought > no I thought > look deeply and check that's true". This is what will turn this from a series of mental skirmishes to the death blow!

Ah ha!! this makes a lot of sense!!

It’s easy to stop at the thought ‘the self’s not there’, and move on to the next thought.

Yes! This is what I do!!

Thanks Odemira <3

[odemira]

Hi Dave,

Sorry to have confused you! What I was referring to was what I noticed in your 'ramble' post of Sept 17th ;) - you were mainly describing the battle of the thoughts, and how that was leading you further into frustration. But when you wrote about how you looked for a self and couldn't find one, that was the time when a realisation dawned. So I was pointing out that it is the looking that leads to realisation.

Glad you have clarity on looking deeply into the place where the 'I' thought points to when it arises!

You're welcome,
Odemira