pilgrims progress

[Moringa]

Hi Vivian
thanks once again for your encouragement and your time.
I realise that compared to a lot of the replies I have read on LU my answers are a bit terse, containing very little other than an attempt to answer your questions.
The reason for that is because however brief and badly written, they take a long time to do.
Without a spell checker and grammar suggestions on my chromebook it would be impossible for me
To do them at all.
Looking at your reply this morning I felt irritation, disappointment, frustration all sorts of things, not even sure who I was irritated with, mainly me I think,and frustrated with not seeing clearly what is.
Then I thought maybe it was the wording I was using ….(I and me) that was what you mainly referred to.
So a lot going on including a sense of failure and hopelessness creeping in, then I had to realise once again I may be a dyslexic but I am not stupid having got all that out of the way I went back to trying to answer your question/pointers without the baggage.
Then I remember reading you saying somewhere “it is very simple the thinking is what makes it difficult” So onward and upwards.

“…

when I stop myself from going into thought” – so there is a me, a person going into thoughts?
What is it exactly that can stop itself going into thoughts? The me-character, Peter?

And how do you that? What do you do exactly for ‘stopping yourself from going into thoughts”?

Distraction appeared to be practised but no-one can be found who practised it or who goes into thoughts they are either there or not.

… I managed not to think..” – OK. So there is a you, who has some sort of power over thoughts, since sometimes it can manage not to think. Is this so?

No it is not so.

Where is the I that can manage not to think?
Can you stop thinking?
How do you make that happen? What do you do in order to stop thoughts appearing?

There is no I that can manage not to think we have proved that.
No, I can't stop thinking.
Nothing, unless it was to hit myself over the head hard enough :)

Sit for about 5 minutes, and your only job is to NOT think a single thought for 5 minutes. Literally ZERO thoughts. Stop thinking altogether. Can you do that?
I already knew the answer but in the spirit of honesty I had another go Total Failure

After you’ve done it and failed, is there really a me who could manage stop thinking?
Or ‘I managed not to think” is part of the selfing thoughts of a person, Peter?

I already knew the answer but in the spirit of honesty I had another go Total Failure
There is no me who can stop thinking it just happens.
Your answer is the truth, it is selfing thoughts, that is indeed all there is to be found of Peter.

Is the lessening of thoughts the result of Peter somehow managing not to think, or the lessening of thoughts are just happening automatically

The lessening of thoughts happens automatically.

Is the main character, Peter, has any power over thoughts?
Or thoughts just happen effortlessly, including thoughts about “I managed not to think”?

We have established Peter has no power over thoughts, he is an illusion so has no power
of any nature. Thoughts are effortlessly appearing. When Peter is looked for he never appears.

snce sending off my findings I have found myself laughing, can it be as simple as the me/self is just a thought ???
There cannot be a self/me....... based on the work of the last few days, where would it be, there is nowhere left to hide.
Having re-read this, I now feel unsure of the truth of what I am saying, but will trust in the process you are kindly guiding me through to clarify the situation.

I nearly deleted this, as it seems to be thinking not looking, but it may have a significance to you, or not as the case may be.
OK. So you’ve come to the intellectual conclusion that maybe the me/self is just a thought.
Now test this assumption against reality, to see if this is really the case.

Is there a real, actual me/self/Peter outside of the selfing thought story of me/Peter?

No Peter can be found outside the selfing thought story of me/Peter.... thats what he is a story. That is what is beginning to be seen he is no more real than Batman.

Thank you once again Vivian
I am a verbal communicator but I am learning to type better,how to cut and paste from document on to LUs website
all things I dont do much of so a learning curve in lots of ways.

Stay well
Peter

[Vivien]

Hi Peter,

Looking at your reply this morning I felt irritation, disappointment, frustration all sorts of things, not even sure who I was irritated with, mainly me I think,and frustrated with not seeing clearly what is

This is normal. Almost everybody goes through irritation, disappointment and especially frustration with the inquiry. This is part of the process. So it’s not about it, it happens to almost everybody. It’s natural.

There is no I that can manage not to think we have proved that.
We have established Peter has no power over thoughts, he is an illusion so has no power
of any nature.

Unfortunately, this is not enough. It’s not enough to see once or twice that there is no Peter, and then ticking it off from the list, and relying on the memory of that previous looking.

It’s not about proving it, or establishing it. Since all of these can happen only in thinking. Which is intellectual.
It doesn’t matter how many times it has been seen in the past that there is no I, if it’s not seen in this very moment.

it's essential that you never ever rely on a memory of a previous looking. Why? Since you have to be able to see it now, and now, and now….

If you rely on a memory, then you are not seeing it now, you are just fooling yourself with the belief of seeing something, what you actually cannot see in the moment. That’s just an intellectual understanding in this moment, and not a lived experience.

The stance of “I already know” is actually preventing you from looking at what is here right now.

Do you see how important to always look with every single question, again and again and again?
And not falling for thoughts of “I already know it”?
Can we agree that you will never write anything to me that you haven’t investigated in that very moment?

Your answer is the truth, it is selfing thoughts, that is indeed all there is to be found of Peter.

Is this something that you can clearly see experientially in this very moment?
And then in this moment?
And at any moment throughout your day?

Let’s check this out.

In the midst of your daily life, pause as often as you can (even if for just 10 seconds) and check if there is an actual Peter thinking, doing, deciding, seeing, looking, feeling, hearing, etc.

Check this again and again and again at least 50-100 times a day. And even if it’s totally clear that there is no me anywhere, still look more.

This inquiry is about constant and repeated looking and looking and looking more. This repeated looking what brings about the EXPERIENTIAL realization.

This repeated looking what moves the needle from an intellectual understanding to a lived experience.

I am a verbal communicator but I am learning to type better,how to cut and paste from document on to LUs website
all things I dont do much of so a learning curve in lots of ways.

Please don’t worry about this. Your posts are perfectly all right. You are communicating well :)

Vivien

[Moringa]

Hi Vivian

Unfortunately, this is not enough. It’s not enough to see once or twice that there is no Peter, and then ticking it off from the list, and relying on the memory of that previous looking.

It’s not about proving it, or establishing it. Since all of these can happen only in thinking. Which is intellectual.
It doesn’t matter how many times it has been seen in the past that there is no I, if it’s not seen in this very moment.

it's essential that you never ever rely on a memory of a previous looking. Why? Since you have to be able to see it now, and now, and now….

If you rely on a memory, then you are not seeing it now, you are just fooling yourself with the belief of seeing something, what you actually cannot see in the moment. That’s just an intellectual understanding in this moment, and not a lived experience.

The stance of “I already know” is actually preventing you from looking at what is here right now.

Do you see how important to always look with every single question, again and again and again?
And not falling for thoughts of “I already know it”?
Can we agree that you will never write anything to me that you haven’t investigated in that very moment?

Thanks for these very illuminating words.
I have many times thought I have got it only to find an hour, or a day later that I was mistaken.
I had gone back to the exercise but can see how my answer did not make that clear, sorry.
When I looked at it again I realised that reading involves a different sort of thinking than moving hands
but thinking is not suspended as I had originally thought by the distraction of reading. That is how I see it now
I hope I am right about this, reading is a different form of thinking but I am not certain I have never looked at this before.

I will spend the day looking at the rest of your post to me and send my reply later Vivian.
Thanks Peter

[Moringa]

Hi Vivian

Do you see how important to always look with every single question, again and again and again?

Yes I do see that, I have noticed that there are changes throughout the day.
I put your posts onto my phone so that I can refer to the questions wherever I am’ and have a few spare minutes.As well as the time I simply put things on hold to look and answer your questions.

And not falling for thoughts of “I already know it”?
Can we agree that you will never write anything to me that you haven’t investigated in that very moment?

Yes that can be agreed there is no point in doing this half-heartedly it would be a waste of your time and mine.
As I have explained I had not done that, it was my badly written reply that gave that impression
.

Your answer is the truth, it is selfing thoughts, that is indeed all there is to be found of Peter.
Is this something that you can clearly see experientially in this very moment?

I seemed so yesterday when I was posting, but not now, at least not clearly.

And then in this moment?

No it is not experienced now at this moment,.. thinking about it has to happen for it to be seen.
When it is seen, it appears as if it has always been there, it is not a surprise it is just noticed.

And at any moment throughout your day?

It is seen at different times that there is no doer of actions they happen even though thinking is not related to the action being taken.

Let’s check this out.

In the midst of your daily life, pause as often as you can (even if for just 10 seconds) and check if there is an actual Peter thinking, doing, deciding, seeing, looking, feeling, hearing, etc.
Check this again and again and again at least 50-100 times a day. And even if it’s totally clear that there is no me anywhere, still look more.

Thinking, doing, deciding, seeing, looking, feeling,hearing all are taking place automatically here, there is no input from the Peter/self needed.
This was done as often as it was remembered which was a lot of times.
It will be done in the coming days and weeks until hopefully it becomes habitual.

This inquiry is about constant and repeated looking and looking and looking more. This repeated looking what brings about the EXPERIENTIAL realization.

This repeated looking what moves the needle from an intellectual understanding to a lived experience.

Then I will repeatedly look. Hope fully the needle will move for me.

Best wishes and gratitude Peter

[Vivien]

Hi Peter,

When I looked at it again I realised that reading involves a different sort of thinking than moving hands
but thinking is not suspended as I had originally thought by the distraction of reading. That is how I see it now
I hope I am right about this, reading is a different form of thinking but I am not certain I have never looked at this before.

Sorry, but I don’t understand what you are trying to say here. Could you please tell a bit more?

What is the difference between a happening and a doing?

Look around, all colours are given, they are happening. It’s not that the me-character can choose and make colours that are present into different ones. Or choose not to see green and see pink instead. Colours are happening. Shapes are happening. Sounds are happening.

What about sensations? Are they happening or the me-character doing them?
And how about feelings? Are they something the me-character does or something that is given?
Now look, what is not given?

Is the me-character doing anything in life?
Or is it given? As an idea? Or as an entity?

Vivien

[Moringa]

Hi Vivian
Got up very early to reply to you as I have a busy few afternoons for the next few days then lost all my answers Grrr.

When I looked at it again I realised that reading involves a different sort of thinking than moving hands
but thinking is not suspended as I had originally thought by the distraction of reading. That is how I see it now
I hope I am right about this, reading is a different form of thinking but I am not certain I have never looked at this before.

Sorry, but I don’t understand what you are trying to say here. Could you please tell a bit more?

I was trying to work out if reading involved thinking I presume it does because I have sometimes read half a page while thinking of something other than what I was reading only to realise that what was read was not taken in.
So I was attempting to sidestep thinking by reading while doing the hand raising exercise.
But thanks to the constant looking and looking again that you emphasise, I realise the whole thing is just happening, the thinking the reading the hand raising my inability to explain clearly what was going on all is just happening.
The value of the daily writing is also seen.

Look around, all colours are given, they are happening. It’s not that the me-character can choose and make colours that are present into different ones. Or choose not to see green and see pink instead. Colours are happening. Shapes are happening. Sounds are happening.

What about sensations? Are they happening or the me-character doing them?

Sensations hot,cold hunger,taste are happenings, the they cant be done by the me-character who can't be found

And how about feelings? Are they something the me-character does or something that is given

Feelings are not given directly,they are provoked by thought which is a given.
Having lost all the answers laboriously typed then getting in a total mess with cutting and pasting answers from document to the forum this provoked all sorts of unwanted thoughts and unwanted feelings of anxiety so the process of feelings was clearly seen but the me -character was not involved

What is the difference between a happening and a doing?

Happening is whats really going on.
Doing is what the me-self would claim, but the me-self cannot be found when looked for so no doing,no doer

Now look, what is not given?

While looking through the day,so far I cannot find anything that is not given/happening.

Is the me-character doing anything in life?
Or is it given? As an idea? Or as an entity?

The me-character is not doing anything that I can find evidence of or evidence of the said me-characters existence at all.
Everything appears to just happen
Ideas happen, but an entity cannot be found to act upon or ignore an idea, which is in itself a happening.
Even a journey plan would become an idea of how to get somewhere,this would also just happen or not, like washing dishes just happens, as I have just observed.

I got in a muddle having lost most of my original work today,hope I have not accidentally rearranged your questions in the hurry to make sure I sent my daily answer

With gratitude for these very focus provoking question from you Vivian

Peter

[Vivien]

Hi Peter,

You did a nice investigation :)

Got up very early to reply to you as I have a busy few afternoons for the next few days then lost all my answers Grrr.

When you log in to the forum, there is a box “Keep me logged in” (or something similar) that you can tick. This can prevent losing your comments when it takes long time to copy-paste them.

Doing is what the me-self would claim, but the me-self cannot be found when looked for so no doing,no doer

OK. So the doer cannot be found.

But does it still FEEL as if there were a doer in your everyday life?
Also, does it feel in daily life that there is a thinker?

Is there a sense of self?
If yes, then please describe how it shows up and where it is in the body.

Vivien

[Moringa]

Hi Vivian

your questions today triggered a great deal of stuff for me
I wish I could give you clearer answers than I feel able to at the moment.
I will do my best to make myself understood and of course be as honest as I can.
My very dear friend from whom I have no secrets came over to see me late morning, had lunch leaving at 2 pm instead of being here all afternoon as anticipated so my morning was taken up cooking and looking at the questions, but the afternoon is now free.
I have been looking and trying to only see what is, not what I think is, since 6 am.
When I was talking to my friend, a fully trained psychotherapist I was explaining that I no longer believe in a self/person and cannot find one no matter how I try.
Not in my body or my head though at times earlier it felt as if I only looked harder I would find the self, then the conversation changed to other things as they do.
Later as the time wore on and we got back to the subject I was explaining that I was beginning to see that the self was for me just a story, a thought an assumed self no reality he is not real and never has been.
The truth of this statement at that moment was completely known for it to be true. I could not hold back the tears caused by this insight, revealed completely clearly no doubts it was just true, it was a very powerful emotional moment.
After a few minutes, I gathered myself together, and we carried on talking more generally.
I don't know where I am with this at the moment.
I feel as if something very important has happened, but maybe I am wrong.
I will sit with this and to see what is revealed through the rest of the day and possibly the rest of this life.
I am so glad to have access to your knowledge, and wait with even greater than normal interest for your next post.

But does it still FEEL as if there were a doer in your everyday life?

It feels like it always has, but there is the knowledge that there is no doer

Also, does it feel in daily life that there is a thinker?

I find this more difficult to be sure of.
I would say that thinking just happens, even focussed thinking.

Is there a sense of self?

Nothing has changed, the sense of self is still here but it is known to be illusory
only that “a sense of self” no reality


If yes, then please describe how it shows up and where it is in the body.

It does not have any tangible bodily quality I can find at this moment.
Not in the heart,gut or head anywhere.

Thank you Vivian

[Vivien]

Hi Peter,

Later as the time wore on and we got back to the subject I was explaining that I was beginning to see that the self was for me just a story, a thought an assumed self no reality he is not real and never has been.
The truth of this statement at that moment was completely known for it to be true. I could not hold back the tears caused by this insight, revealed completely clearly no doubts it was just true, it was a very powerful emotional moment.

Beautiful :)

V: Also, does it feel in daily life that there is a thinker?

P: I find this more difficult to be sure of.
I would say that thinking just happens, even focussed thinking.

Then please look into more.

Is there any thought at all, at any time, that is done/thought by someone, and not just happened automatically?

Is there a real Peter outside of the story of Peter?

What is it that is narration the story?
Is there a narrator?

Is there a difference between Peter and Stanta or the Tooth Fairy?
Is there more reality to Peter than to Santa?

And what is notices thoughts?
Is there someone in the background, noticing or observing thoughts as they appear?

Vivien

[Moringa]

Hi Vivian,
Doubting, uncertainty type thoughts appeared in bed last night, but they were simply observed as thoughts and left to dissipate, which of course they did, no stickiness.
There is a quiet calmness here now, most of the time, very peaceful and pleasant.
Long may it continue.


V: Also, does it feel in daily life that there is a thinker
P: I find this more difficult to be sure of.
I would say that thinking just happens, even focussed thinking.

Then please look into more.

Is there any thought at all, at any time, that is done/thought by someone, and not just happened automatically?

No all thinking is automatic,at any time.
There is no one here for it to be different.
That is seen now.

Is there a real Peter outside of the story of Peter?

No not at all.
Like the LU website analogy about a University on the Enlightened quotes app.
There is a building, tutors, students but no University to be found.
Here there is being, but no Peter.

What is it that is narration the story?
Is there a narrator?

Thought narrates the story.
No narrator, only thoughts about thoughts appearing as a narrator.

Is there a difference between Peter and Stanta or the Tooth Fairy?
Is there more reality to Peter than to Santa?

There is no difference between Peter, Santa, or the tooth fairy.
None have reality. All are make believe stories.

And what is notices thoughts?

Awareness, but it is also impersonal and inseparable from thought.
This had to be looked at for a while before this answer came.

Is there someone in the background, noticing or observing thoughts as they appear?

No they just appear to no one.

Thanks Vivian

[Vivien]

Hi Peter,

You did a nice investigation. :)

Here there is being, but no Peter.

And what does the word ‘being’ refer to? What do you mean by ‘being’?

What does life happening TO?
Does life happening to the body, or AS the body?

V: And what is notices thoughts?

P: Awareness, but it is also impersonal and inseparable from thought.
This had to be looked at for a while before this answer came.

OK. Let's look at this a bit more, just to make sure that everything is clear.

Are you saying that there is an awareness that is doing the noticing of thoughts?

Are two things happening: thoughts + awareness which notices thoughts?
Or these two ways to describe or point to the same event of simply thought happening?

Vivien

[Moringa]

Dear Vivian,
You did a nice investigation. :)

thank you for those words Vivian.


Here there is being, but no Peter.

And what does the word ‘being’ refer to? What do you mean by ‘being’?

This manifestation of life labeled for convenience Peter maybe life-ing would be a clearer way of saying what I mean, or isness.

What does life happening TO?

Life is happening, as everything living, including plants.
But not TO anything.

Does life happening to the body, or AS the body?

Life is happening as the body, the body is finite but life is not.
If it was happening to the body it would mean that life and the body were separate.


V: And what is notices thoughts?
P: Awareness, but it is also impersonal and inseparable from thought.
This had to be looked at for a while before this answer came.

OK. Let's look at this a bit more, just to make sure that everything is clear.
Are you saying that there is an awareness that is doing the noticing of thoughts?

Awareness, thoughts,noticing all the same thing now you have made me look again.
One seamless happening.

Are two things happening: thoughts + awareness which notices thoughts?

No it is not two things.

Or these two ways to describe or point to the same event of simply thought happening?

Yes they are pointers to the same event thought simply happening.

V: And what is notices thoughts?

To go back to your question…. Nothing…. it seems that thoughts by their nature are known.
I am putting this in Vivian to make sure that I have this right
The question suggests that there is a noticer but I can't find one.


Thank you for what you are doing Vivian
This is so great, being compelled to keep looking therefore removing confusion,
if a little slowly in my case.

Peter
I am going to post this while LU website is working it keeps malfunctioning here.

[Vivien]

Hi Peter,

This manifestation of life labeled for convenience Peter maybe life-ing would be a clearer way of saying what I mean, or isness.

Are you talking about the body?
Is the body = Peter?

To go back to your question…. Nothing…. it seems that thoughts by their nature are known.
I am putting this in Vivian to make sure that I have this right
The question suggests that there is a noticer but I can't find one.
This question is a tricky one :) I’m not suggesting that there is a noticer.

Quite the opposite. I’m questioning if there is one at all.
It’s a common belief that there is someone or something noticing thoughts and experiencing experience.

But is there anything separate from experience, looking in and experiencing what is happening?
Is there anything or anyone else, then what is happening, here, right now?
Is there anything separate from what IS (right now)?

And is there any other time then this very moment?

Is there a self, a person, a Peter, existing and lasting through time and space? A Peter who was born in the past, grown up, went to school, had this or that profession, and is living life, and some day will die?

Thank you for what you are doing Vivian
This is so great, being compelled to keep looking therefore removing confusion,
if a little slowly in my case.

You are welcome :) Don’t worry about the speed. And actually it’s not slow at all :)

There have been some technical issues with the site, hopefully it will work fine from now on.

Vivien

[Moringa]

Hi Vivian

This manifestation of life labeled for convenience Peter maybe life-ing would be a
clearer way of saying what I mean, or isness.

Are you talking about the body?

No…... an aspect of “life” is what I meant

Is the body = Peter?

No the body is real and exists, it is the/Peter character separate self that doesn't.

To go back to your question…. Nothing…. it seems that thoughts by their nature are known.
I am putting this in Vivian to make sure that I have this rightThe question suggests that there is a noticer but I can't find one.

This question is a tricky one :) I’m not suggesting that there is a noticer.
Quite the opposite. I’m questioning if there is one at all.
It’s a common belief that there is someone or something noticing thoughts and experiencing experience.

But is there anything separate from experience, looking in and experiencing what is happening?

No nothing, no observer or witness.

Is there anything or anyone else, then what is happening, here, right now?

Never was, never can be.

Is there anything separate from what IS (right now)?

Absolutely not

And is there any other time then this very moment?

No, I am seeing that even "now" is a concept, as is the whole idea of time.
I never knew what people were talking about when they said that before.

Is there a self, a person, a Peter, existing and lasting through time and space? A Peter who was born in the past, grown up, went to school, had this or that profession, and is living life, and someday will die?

No, that would be just another story, Peter was never born and can never die, because he has never existed.
There is only ever life, doing what it does.
This has become clear over the last few days because of the constant looking at all actions, movements, thoughts, everything that I used to think “Peter” had agency over.
Looking at your brilliantly targeted questions has gone on all the time from waking to sleeping throughout each day,before,during and after i've posted my answers.
So much has been seen through, I find myself laughing at the madness of it hitherto.
I am sure that I will slip back into the old patterns frequently nevertheless, but once doing so is spotted I now have tools to remedy it.
Also what has been seen can never be unseen,it can only be forgotten in the moment.
Nothing is constant, it is seen that all is changing, every moment is new and unblemished,even if that is not recognised.
It is quite strange to be able to write these words Vivian, after so much frustration,seeking and false hopes.
I know that this is a life long unfolding, but there is a shift.
But it is the truth as seen here this moment.
Any way the words are written by nobody, for nobody to read.
What fun!!

Thank you for your words of encouragement over my progress so far.

Peter

[Vivien]

Hi Peter,

No, that would be just another story, Peter was never born and can never die, because he has never existed.
There is only ever life, doing what it does.
This has become clear over the last few days because of the constant looking at all actions, movements, thoughts, everything that I used to think “Peter” had agency over.
Looking at your brilliantly targeted questions has gone on all the time from waking to sleeping throughout each day,before,during and after i've posted my answers.
So much has been seen through, I find myself laughing at the madness of it hitherto.
I am sure that I will slip back into the old patterns frequently nevertheless, but once doing so is spotted I now have tools to remedy it.
Also what has been seen can never be unseen,it can only be forgotten in the moment.
Nothing is constant, it is seen that all is changing, every moment is new and unblemished,even if that is not recognised.
It is quite strange to be able to write these words Vivian, after so much frustration,seeking and false hopes.
I know that this is a life long unfolding, but there is a shift.
But it is the truth as seen here this moment.
Any way the words are written by nobody, for nobody to read.
What fun!!

This is a really nice description.

I am sure that I will slip back into the old patterns

What is it that could slip back into old patters?
Is there something that is coming in and out of old patters?

Also what has been seen can never be unseen,it can only be forgotten in the moment.

And when it’s forgotten, what is it exactly that is forgetting it?
And when there is a remembering, what is it that is remembers it?

No, I am seeing that even "now" is a concept, as is the whole idea of time.
I never knew what people were talking about when they said that before.

Yes! Now is just as much a concept, as time. There is only what IS.

Vivien