The final push

[Vivien]

Hi Cal,

You did a nice investigation.

And what about selfing thoughts? Are selfing thoughts are done (thought) by a Cal, or they are also just happening?

Is there ANY thought that is not happening automatically? Any at all?

Is there a person outside of the story of Cal?

Please look in the midst of your everyday life, especially when it feels like that “I am thinking”, “I am choosing”, to see if these are actually done by a self, or they happen automatically.

Vivien

[CalFatman]

Hi Vivien,


And what about selfing thoughts? Are selfing thoughts are done (thought) by a Cal, or they are also just happening?
Just happening. Paid attention to it throughout the day and there was never any moment where there was doing. Just the continuous, spontaneous telling of the thought story. I had busy day at work, but even when deliberate decisions had to made or there was deep reflecting on the thoughts or on what had happened, nothing but thoughts were there.

Is there ANY thought that is not happening automatically? Any at all?
None. Nothing. I wouldn’t even be possible. What outside force could there be that steers thought?

Is there a person outside of the story of Cal?
No. I actually have to laugh a bit at how fantastically vivid and elaborate the brain creates this beautiful play. The whole time! The idea of a sophisticated computer, capable of learning and self-maintenance comes to mind again, in which the mental programming that is Cal just runs. Because that’s how it’s programmed after all. Nothing more and nothing less.

Thanks! Have nice day!
Cal

[Vivien]

Hi Cal,
You did a nice investigation :)

Now let’s go a step further.

Thoughts are happening on their own. But is there anything that is not happening on their own?

What is the difference between doing and happening?

Is the separate self doing anything in life?
Or is it given? As an idea? Or as an entity?

Is it possible that everything (with no exception) is just happening?
What do you do right now for this to be?

Is reading a doing or a happening?
Is sitting a doing or a happening?
Is seeing a doing or a happening?


Vivien

[CalFatman]

Hi Vivien,

Thoughts are happening on their own. But is there anything that is not happening on their own?
No, I can’t really think of anything. Like thoughts, actions are also happening by themselves.

What is the difference between doing and happening?
There is none. Difficult to explain, but everything just happens. The sun rises, flowers blossom, animals feed, and humans talk, shower, work, worry, sport. But no one causes any of those things to happen, or influences them or anything.

Is the separate self doing anything in life?
No, it couldn’t, because it doesn’t exist.

Or is it given? As an idea? Or as an entity?
Yes, it’s only an idea. The idea of an entity living inside the body. Funny now, how incredible huge it seemed, how much energy was put into this idea. Like Don Quichot fighting an imaginary giant.

Is it possible that everything (with no exception) is just happening?
That is very well possible. I couldn’t see how it could be otherwise. The body does things, of course but everything it does happens because of the way it is made.

What do you do right now for this to be?
I don’t do anything. Your questions is read, thoughts start working, an answer is typed. The computer metaphor again, the actions happen like this because of the hard- and software in the organism.

Is reading a doing or a happening?
Reading happens. Many people think ‘they’ are the ones doing the reading but that’s only because thoughts are saying that. Conditioned with the idea that there is an independent controller inside.

Is sitting a doing or a happening?
Happening, like everything else.

Is seeing a doing or a happening?
Seeing happens. There really is no more doing whatsoever. Even the most complex mental calculations or difficult physical exercises just happen. It even gets hard to imagine that it ever was perceived differently.

Thanks again Vivien,
Have a nice day!
Cal

[Vivien]

Hi Cal,

Would you say that there has been a shift from an intellectual understanding of there being no separate self to an experiential recognition of it?

If yes, could you tell when did this shift happen?
And how does the shift itself felt?

Or maybe there is some doubt?

Vivien

[CalFatman]

Hi Vivien,

Would you say that there has been a shift from an intellectual understanding of there being no separate self to an experiential recognition of it?
Yes. There were several flip-flops before, but this one has not flopped back in several days now.

If yes, could you tell when did this shift happen?
I think it happened when you asked me the question: “What do you do to think?”. I looked at this one particularly deeply, as I felt that this was somehow the one to crack in order to show whether ‘I’ was there or not. It’s funny, because I approached it the other way around, ‘I’ wanted to prove to ‘myself’ that I actually DID exist. So I tried to come up with kinds of arguments of why I am actually thinking and making thought happen. But the more arguments I tried come up with, the clearer it became that they made no sense. Then the thought occurred: Who’s coming up with these arguments anyway? And who is listening? And then the realization could no longer be denied that all of it is just thoughts, discussing each other, without anyone doing anything.

And how does the shift itself felt?
Not with a big bang, but subtle and in the next days it started to deepen more. What was striking that everything was the same as before. Same positive and negative selfing thoughts, same emotions, same behaviour. But with a sense that all just happen, without anyone causing them or having them. Just mental functioning of the person Cal.

Or maybe there is some doubt?
There is no doubt. It’s also seen that all doubt that has ever existed is only thought expressing doubt, confirmed by other thoughts, etc. All beliefs, expectations, hopes, fears, etc. are basically all thoughts that are part of the mental programming of the organism, just happening. No reason to change them or trying not to have them. There is an underlying feeling of relief and peace now underneath the day-to-day chitchat of thoughts. And an excitement and curiosity as to what is going to happen next, as I feel these changes slowly occurring in the workings of ‘me’.

All the best,
Cal

[Vivien]

Hi Cal,

Tell me what's left of Cal. When checking reality, does he still exist?
And if so, can you tell me, what's left of him or how and when he appears?
Is there a Cal to cross the gateless gate?

Is there anything missing here? Is anything incomplete here? Could anything ever be incomplete? Should anything happen so that this moment would be "more complete"?

Is there anything that is not totally clear and you would like to look at?

Vivien

[CalFatman]

Hi Vivien,

Tell me what's left of Cal. When checking reality, does he still exist?
There is nothing left. It’s not that something is gone that was there before, but rather that what was used to be believed as Cal is no longer believed. There are only thoughts about a self, but it was used to believed that those thoughts were about an entity existing outside of those thoughts. That Cal was having the thoughts. But there are only thoughts, with nothing outside of them.

And if so, can you tell me, what's left of him or how and when he appears?
Is there a Cal to cross the gateless gate?
The thoughts are still there though. “why couldn’t things be more like this”, “Should I not do more of such”, etc. Bad feelings are still there, frustration, anxiety, etc. I guess I used to think that once I finally ‘got there’, those things would have to be gone and my experience would be constant peace, wisdom, and patience. But it’s more that negative thoughts and feeling are no longer cared for or having to be resisted. There is no one that can give them attention. So, there is nothing left of Cal or more precisely he never was there. It had always been psychological functioning happening by itself, like metabolism or blood circulation.

Is there anything missing here? Is anything incomplete here? Could anything ever be incomplete? Should anything happen so that this moment would be "more complete"?
So nothing missing or incomplete. The only thing that even wonders about those questions are thoughts. Never satisfied, always wanting things to be different and better than they are right now. No wonder so many people are unhappy. But when the belief in ‘your’ thoughts falls away, so does the longing. And everything is absolutely fine, nothing has to change. And when things do change, it’s also fine.

Is there anything that is not totally clear and you would like to look at?
Well, everything seems pretty clear now. But I’m curious about what’s going to happen next. It feels as if there is more to come, like more old patterns are starting to fall away. Could you perhaps tell a little something about this phase? Is there some more looking that I could do?

Thanks again Vivien!
Talk to you tomorrow,
Cal

[Vivien]

Hi Cal,

Well, everything seems pretty clear now. But I’m curious about what’s going to happen next. It feels as if there is more to come, like more old patterns are starting to fall away. Could you perhaps tell a little something about this phase? Is there some more looking that I could do?

Seeing through the self is just the first step, just the beginning and not the end. So as you noticed falling away of conditioning can last for a long time.

What you can do is to look with everything that triggers an emotional reaction. Every time when there is anger, frustration, sadness, disappointment or any form of reaction, just stop and look if there is actually a self, person there having those reactions and emotions. Just make this into habit, to investigate anything that triggers any seemingly personal reaction. This is a long process; it can last until the end of the organism.

What we usually do at this state of the process is to ask some final questions that I will show to other guides to see if there is anything that we might have missed and that my guiding was clear. Other guides might or might not have further questions for you.

Are you ready for these final questions?

Vivien

[CalFatman]

Hi Vivien,

Right, that sounds like good advice. Looking forward to doing that.

And yes, I'm ready!

Cal

[Vivien]

Hi Cal,

Please answer the following questions with some detail please, and answer what's true for you rather than any sort of 'ideal' answer. Also please provide examples where asked.

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form?
Was there ever?

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience.
Describe it fully as you see it now.

3) How does it feel to see this?
What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over; made you look?

5) a) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work?
Give examples from your own recent experiences to how things happen and how things work.

b) What are you responsible for? Give examples from your own recent experiences to how this works.

6) Anything to add?

Vivien

[CalFatman]

Hi Vivien,

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form?
Was there ever?
No, all there is are thoughts/thought patterns that talk about an I. “I should be more like this”, “Why do I always feel like such”, etc. It was used to believe that those thoughts refer to an actual I, that exists outside of those thoughts. But now it is seen that that ‘outside I’ was never really there, and there are only the thoughts.

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience.
Describe it fully as you see it now.
Don’t know exactly how it starts, it was there as long as I could remember. But I guess because you have been told your whole life that there is a you, it is nor surprising that the mind starts forming a mental idea of this I and it is believed to really exist. And from that moment on there was a Cal who had a body, had thoughts, made decisions, lived a life. In reality this body functions completely by itself, including the thoughts that it produces and the decisions that it makes. The illusion is thinking that this idea of a Cal, who supposedly exists above and beyond the direct functioning of the body, controls this functioning or has the functioning happening to him. It’s kind of strange, because now it’s hard to imagine that such a belief existed for so long here.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.
It feels great. Free, liberated, exciting, just pure beauty. And on the other hand, is feels quite normal, as if nothing has changed. Same daily hassles, same thoughts, same frustrations. It has become quite clear in the last few days, that things have only just started, this is just the beginning. There is a much greater clarity in seeing the mental patterns that Cal has accumulated throughout his life, and how they steer his thoughts and behaviour. As if a blind spot has lifted. They also begin falling away slowly now, and there is a surprise as to why ‘I’ have always thought/acted the way I did. The big difference with before this dialogue is that now, it makes not slightest difference what Cal is thinking or doing, there is no one here that could care. Before, the was always resistance to certain thoughts, having to fix things all the time, and feeling miserable when this did not work.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over; made you look?
Well, it has been a whole process with several brakes and accelerations, but the one moment that was the moment of no return, was your question: “What do you do to think”. I looked very deeply at this one, figured that the ‘I’ should be able to answer this in order to prove his existence. So there was a focus on as much evidence the I could come up with to show that he was doing the thinking. But the more it came up with, the weaker the arguments and the less they were believable. At this point it was seen that all that was going on was information processing. Analyses being verbalized through thoughts. What used to be experienced as me having an inner dialogue was now seen as being output of mental processing of the organism of Cal. Cal has both physical as well as psychological functioning, so of course it produces thought. And like metabolism happens by itself, so does thinking. What else could it be? The idea of a little entity living in there, doing it all, seemed absurd all of sudden.

5) a) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work?
Give examples from your own recent experiences to how things happen and how things work.
Mmmm… Difficult one, as these things no longer make any sense. But let’s take this writing as an example. I guess I used to think that I intentionally formulated these sentences in my head first and then started typing them, giving me a sense of free will. Because after all, first I contemplated my actions by verbalizing them as thought, and next used my hands to type them on the computer screen. But now it is clear that is absolutely unknown where the initial formulating thoughts come from. So who is writing? Where I used to think ‘I’ am writing, now it is seen that this I is also being thought. It’s part of the thoughts that still come up from out of nowhere. So how can the I be the cause of the thinking when he itself is a thought? Same for decisions, choices, or controlling actions or something. It is simply one big mystery how they happen.

b) What are you responsible for? Give examples from your own recent experiences to how this works.
Another tough one. Well, as everything is just happening by itself and there is no one doing anything, this questions seems to be coming from another paradigm. As there is no I, there is no one that can be responsible. In my case for example, as a father there is great sense of responsibility for the well-being of my children. Great sadness will arise here (and has before) if there is a feeling of having failed to live up to this responsibility. A strong motivation will arise to make things right and be the responsible dad again. However, all of this is just happening, done by no one. The learning history of Cal (having learned that responsibility is an important virtue), combined with some genetic make up of our species (some evolutionary force that drives fathers to feel responsible for their kids) can probably explain why these feeling and behaviours occur.

6) Anything to add?
No, I guess that’s it for now.

All the best,
Cal

[Vivien]

Hi Cal,

Thank you for your responses. I am going to ask other guides to have a look at the thread to ensure that I have covered everything and that my pointing has been clear. This may take a few days. Sometimes, not always, the other guides may have further questions which I will bring to you.

Vivien

[CalFatman]

Got it, thank you!

Cal

[Vivien]

Hi Cal,

Other guides have no further questions for you. It has been a pleasure to explore the concept of the separate self with you. Thank you for being open and willing to look.

Keep an eye out for an email notification notifying you of a PM (private message) from the forum inviting you to join our aftercare groups on Facebook. If you don't receive an email notification, you can access your PM's from the forum once you have logged in. The PM also details other resources available to you.

Your username will change from green to blue which indicates that you have had the realisation of there being no separate self. This thread will be moved to the ‘Archive’ section of the forum, but you will be able to access it.

You can contact me at any time if you have any questions via private message here on the forum, or via Facebook if you decide to join our groups there.

Vivien