Feel like I'm close but need a push

[Ainonia]

Hi Vivien,

But is there an I claiming to be the body? Or thoughts and sensations?

No, these things just are. There is nothing trying to claim any of these things, they simply exist as they are.

Is there someone identifying as body and thoughts and sensation?

No entity comes forward to identify itself with these things. It has been noticed in everyday life that the terms 'I' or 'my' have been used in connection to them, but no 'self' has ever been found or experienced.

The existence of a physical body can be verified by looking at it.
With eyes open, what is being perceived we call colour. There are different colours and shapes.
The body is a label on certain colors. Can you see this?

Yes, I can see this.

But is there someone identifying and saying that the colors labelled ‘body’ is ME?

No, there is no experience of this happening.

Now closed your eyes, and tell me, how is the body experienced? What is the experience of the body?

It is experienced entirely through the sense of touch, whether it be the weight of my body being felt in my seat, the awareness of my lips being closed together, or the swell of my chest as I breathe. The experience of the body itself cannot be pit into words. It is being experienced but is not experiencing anything.

Dave.

[Vivien]

Hi Dave,

And what about Dave? What is Dave? Is there an actual Dave breathing, feeling, thinking and living life?

It [body] is being experienced but is not experiencing anything.

And what is it that is experiencing the body?
Where does the body experienced/felt from?
Does Dave experiencing the body?

Who owns the body? Does Dave own it?
Where is Dave? Is he inside the body?
Is he somewhere inside, protected by the skin, experiencing (from ‘in here’) the world (‘out there’) through the body’s 5 senses?

Vivien

[Ainonia]

Hi Vivien,

And what about Dave? What is Dave? Is there an actual Dave breathing, feeling, thinking and living life?

There is something that does all of those things, but it can't be called Dave. Dave is just a series of thoughts that have been believed.

It [body] is being experienced but is not experiencing anything.

And what is it that is experiencing the body?

This is a difficult one to answer from looking. The sensations of the body are being experienced but there is no perception of what it is that many be experiencing the body.

Where is the body experienced/felt from?

The only word I can attempt to describe it with is the 'sensorium,' being the body's own faculties of sensing.

Is Dave experiencing the body?

That Dave thing is not present and exists only as a belief system and set of conditioned responses. It is not experiencing the body. Only the body itself seems to be experiencing the body.

Who owns the body? Does Dave own it?

The body is not owned by anything. On experiencing that realisation, I became aware of a strong sense of freedom.

Where is Dave? Is he inside the body?

Dave is just an idea and is not inside the body at all.

Is he somewhere inside, protected by the skin, experiencing (from ‘in here’) the world (‘out there’) through the body’s 5 senses?

No, just in thoughts.

Dave.

[Vivien]

Hi Dave,

V: Where is the body experienced/felt from?

D: The only word I can attempt to describe it with is the 'sensorium,' being the body's own faculties of sensing.

This reply is conceptual.

You have to find the exact location where the body is FELT FROM. So where is that location? Is there any location or 'felt from' at all?

Only the body itself seems to be experiencing the body.

This is another intellectual answer.

Do you actually can observe (literally) as the body is experiencing itself?
Is this really what is happening? Or is this just assumed what is happening?
You are assuming that there MUST BE something that is experiencing. And since you are taking this belief at face value, you are trying to come up some sort of explanation.

What if the assumption of there being a subject of experience, there being an expeinecer is false?
What if there is ONLY experience, but no experiencer at all?
What if experience is, but it doesn’t happen TO anyone or anything?
What if life is, but it doesn’t happen to anyone?

Dave is just an idea and is not inside the body at all.

When not looking and just living your everyday life, does it feel or seem like that you are Dave?

Please give me some description for me what happens in your daily life, when not looking. Does it feel like that Dave is the subject of experience? Does it seem like that Dave is thinking thoughts and making decision?

Please give some information, something we can work with. Since it’s not enough to see that Dave is just a concept, if in everyday life it’s still believed that there is Dave living life.

Vivien

[Ainonia]

Hi Vivien,

V: Where is the body experienced/felt from?
D: The only word I can attempt to describe it with is the 'sensorium,' being the body's own faculties of sensing.
This reply is conceptual.

You have to find the exact location where the body is FELT FROM. So where is that location? Is there any location or 'felt from' at all?

I find the phrase 'felt from' a bit confusing here, so I will answer as I understand it. If I rub my hands together, the sensation comes from the friction between them. The location where this is actually 'felt' is in the hands, but the experience of where that experience is felt from is undefinable. Like thoughts, it seems to come from nowhere at all.

Only the body itself seems to be experiencing the body.

This is another intellectual answer.

This was how I experienced this to be at the time, and was not attempting to apply an intellectual concept. Attempting again after trying to better understand the term 'felt from,' I tried pinching a piece of my skin for a while to try and explore this further. There is an experience of sensation in the skin that gets gradually more uncomfortable, but no actual experiencer of this sensation can't be detected. So other than the experience of slight pain, there is no answer for what is experiencing the body save for 'nothing.'

Do you actually can observe (literally) as the body is experiencing itself?

No.

Is this really what is happening? Or is this just assumed what is happening?

Yes, this was an assumption.

You are assuming that there MUST BE something that is experiencing. And since you are taking this belief at face value, you are trying to come up some sort of explanation.

True. There is experience, but no experiencer.

What if the assumption of there being a subject of experience, there being an expeinecer is false?

Applying the above exercises, this became apparent.

What if there is ONLY experience, but no experiencer at all?

Yes, this seems more so the case now.

What if experience is, but it doesn’t happen TO anyone or anything?

Yes, this is what I started to realise some more.

What if life is, but it doesn’t happen to anyone?

The experiment with the skin pinching helped me realise this may be the case.

Dave is just an idea and is not inside the body at all.

Agreed.

When not looking and just living your everyday life, does it feel or seem like that you are Dave?

Yes, this is often the case.

Please give me some description for me what happens in your daily life, when not looking. Does it feel like that Dave is the subject of experience? Does it seem like that Dave is thinking thoughts and making decision?

Life does largely seem like there is a subject to which things are happening, that Dave is thinking thoughts and makng decisions. But since doing this work with you here, the Dave concept is unravelling at times, as the perception this Dave character is just a concept becomes more frequent

Please give some information, something we can work with. Since it’s not enough to see that Dave is just a concept, if in everyday life it’s still believed that there is Dave living life.

I'll give the example of a visit to a local supermarket. On realising I need to buy some more food, thoughts come about what is wanted and where it can be bought from. A decision seems to be made based on factors such as whether walking or driving is preferred, and then whatever the prevalent feeling is - for instance, the sun is shining so a walk feels like a nice experience to have - the action follows. In the shop, things such as price and nutritional details are considered, and, as I walked there, I don't want to be too burdened by heavy bags, so only about a dozen items are bought. When everything needed has been selected, contactless payment is preferred as I don't usually carry cash, and then the shop is left and I walk back home again.

Throughout this process, everything feels like a choice with decisions being made, though on occasion I now find my thoughts turning to the concept that 'I have no choice' or 'this would be happening without the illusion of choice anyway.' Yet, most of the time, the assumption that I am still making decisions is still prevalent.

Dave.

[Vivien]

Hi Dave,

I find the phrase 'felt from' a bit confusing here, so I will answer as I understand it.

By ‘felt from’ I mean the location where the feeler of the sensation resides.
Here is an example.

Look at your feet. And while you are looking at your feet, notice that is seems like that one that is seeing the feet is ‘up in here’, in the head. So it SEEMS that the SEER of the feet is located in the head, seen from the head. Can you see this?

Now, while you are still looking at your feet, at the same time, focus on feeling your feet.

So where is the location where the FEELER of the feet resides? Where the feeler is feeling the feet from (from which location)?

Is there a feeler at all? Or all there is just the sensations of the feet, without any feeler?

And now switch back to seeing the feet. Where is the exact location where the seeming seer resides in the head?

Can you pin down an exact location where seeing happens?
What do you find there? Do you find there an actual seer, someone who performs the act of seeing?
Is there anything seeing the feet at all?

I'll give the example of a visit to a local supermarket. On realising I need to buy some more food, thoughts come about what is wanted and where it can be bought from. A decision seems to be made based on factors such as whether walking or driving is preferred, and then whatever the prevalent feeling is - for instance, the sun is shining so a walk feels like a nice experience to have - the action follows. In the shop, things such as price and nutritional details are considered, and, as I walked there, I don't want to be too burdened by heavy bags, so only about a dozen items are bought. When everything needed has been selected, contactless payment is preferred as I don't usually carry cash, and then the shop is left and I walk back home again.

OK. Here you shared HOW this process happens, yet you still feel to be the decider located somewhere inside the body.
So by now, you have a good understanding how things happen. But now, we are going to put aside all this understanding and just focusing on how it FEELS to be a decider. How it feels to be Dave.

Do you remember the chocolate exercise we did a while ago?

Now I would like to ask you to do it again, but this time focus on the FEELING of “I am choosing”.
Please put some chocolate (or something you think you shouldn’t eat or drink) in front of you. Look at it. Inspect it closely.

Smell its delicious fragrance. And pay attention to emerging desire to eat it.
When the desire is there, pay close attention to the thought process.
See how thoughts list pros and cons why you should or shouldn’t eat the chocolate.
These opposing thoughts might even try to argue or convince each other what to decide.

Does it FEEL that you are the one listing pros and cons?
Does it FEEL that you are thinking these thoughts?

Focus on this feeling.
What is the feeling of being the thinker of the thoughts?
Which feeling/sensation seems to be the thinker?
Is that sensation Dave, the thinker?


Now, make a decision, but whatever you decide, don’t eat the chocolate (yet). Rather just pay very close attention to the decision making process.

Let’s say a thought appear: “I decided not to eat the chocolate”

So the thought about the decision just appeared. Does it feel that you made that thought to appear?
How does it FEEL to make a decision?
How do you know that “I decided not to eat the chocolate” is your doing, your decision?

Is decision something that you’ve done, or it’s just happened by itself?

Investigate this similarly in the midst of everyday life, when it feels that I am making decisions.
Let me know what you find.

Vivien

[Ainonia]

Hi Vivien,

Look at your feet. And while you are looking at your feet, notice that is seems like that one that is seeing the feet is ‘up in here’, in the head. So it SEEMS that the SEER of the feet is located in the head, seen from the head. Can you see this?

I can.

Now, while you are still looking at your feet, at the same time, focus on feeling your feet.

So where is the location where the FEELER of the feet resides? Where the feeler is feeling the feet from (from which location)?

There isn't any location for the feeler.

Is there a feeler at all? Or all there is just the sensations of the feet, without any feeler?

There's no feeler apparent, just the sensations of the feet.

And now switch back to seeing the feet. Where is the exact location where the seeming seer resides in the head?

There's no location for the seer in the head.

Can you pin down an exact location where seeing happens?

The only noteworthy location for seeing is the eyes, as they are the organs of seeing. Beyond that, there is no location detectable for a 'seer' who is doing or aware of the act of seeing.

What do you find there? Do you find there an actual seer, someone who performs the act of seeing?

I don't find anything there. A seer is not detectable at all.

Is there anything seeing the feet at all?

The feet are being seen, but there is no one doing the act of seeing.

Do you remember the chocolate exercise we did a while ago?

Yes.

Now I would like to ask you to do it again, but this time focus on the FEELING of “I am choosing”.
Please put some chocolate (or something you think you shouldn’t eat or drink) in front of you. Look at it. Inspect it closely.

I did this with some spicy cheese.

Smell its delicious fragrance. And pay attention to emerging desire to eat it.
When the desire is there, pay close attention to the thought process.
See how thoughts list pros and cons why you should or shouldn’t eat the chocolate.
These opposing thoughts might even try to argue or convince each other what to decide.

In practice, this looking didn't happen quite as planned, but the exercise was still adhered to. On reading the above in my room I knew that to this exercise I would have to go downstairs to the fridge to get the cheese and that if I went down to get it I would very likely end up eating it. Because of this I started looking straight away, before I even moved. The pros noted at this stage that if I got up to go downstairs, I would get to eat some nice cheese and perform this exercise as I should, and the cons were that I am currently on a diet to lose a few extra lockdown pounds and have finished all my eating for the day.

On coming back upstairs with the cheese, I did the exercise as advised to and found that smelling its fragrance did little to convince and that the desire to eat it didn't grow because the decision had already seemingly been made before I even got up to go and fetch it. This initial point was where all the decision making had already happened so sitting smelling it and anticipated made little difference.

Does it FEEL that you are the one listing pros and cons?

When the pros and cons were being thought of, the only sensation notable was the perception of the thoughts noted above. The pros were thoughts and the cons were thoughts, and the pros had already won the argument before another thought came announcing that result. The feeling here was one of having no choice and simply observing.

Does it FEEL that you are thinking these thoughts?

No, not at all. It felt like I was just observing them.

Focus on this feeling.
What is the feeling of being the thinker of the thoughts?

There was no perception of being the thinker of thoughts, just a perception that they were happening.

Which feeling/sensation seems to be the thinker?

The feeling that seems to be thinker is that of the thought I mentioned above that seems to 'announce the result' of the automatically fought contest between the pros and the cons.

Is that sensation Dave, the thinker?

No, it isn't.

Now, make a decision, but whatever you decide, don’t eat the chocolate (yet). Rather just pay very close attention to the decision making process.

Let’s say a thought appear: “I decided not to eat the chocolate”

So the thought about the decision just appeared. Does it feel that you made that thought to appear?

No. These thoughts were all just happening.

How does it FEEL to make a decision?

Like no decision is actually being made at all. More like an observation of contradictory thoughts

How do you know that “I decided not to eat the chocolate” is your doing, your decision?

It really felt like it wasn't my decision at all.

Is decision something that you’ve done, or it’s just happened by itself?

It all happened by itself.

Investigate this similarly in the midst of everyday life, when it feels that I am making decisions.
Let me know what you find.

I've been doing this frequently during my exercise routine, paying attention to the decision process involved in when to begin doing a certain set of exercises. During push ups, I lie on the floor, face down, dreading the pain and exhaustion they cause, but feeling that as I am there on the floor, the exercises must start soon. Sometimes they start immediately, and sometimes I soend a minute or two just lying there in dreadful anticipation. What has been noticeable, though, is that whether I start within five seconds or two minutes after lying down, I never seem to have an actual choice of when the exercises begin, They just do. Particular attention has been a=paid to this process, and a decision to start coming from some central controller or 'Dave' has never been pinpointed.

Dave

[Vivien]

Hi Dave,

The only noteworthy location for seeing is the eyes, as they are the organs of seeing

Yes, this is what we learned in school. But it’s conceptual.

Focus your attention to the felt sensations of the eyes, and inquire:
Do these sensations performing the act of seeing?
What does experience show?

Is there any experience of seeing at all? Or there I only what is seen, only colors and shapes?

V: Does it FEEL that you are thinking these thoughts?

D: No, not at all. It felt like I was just observing them.

“It felt like I was just observing them” – what kind of feeling is that?
And where is the observer? Is there one? – look very carefully

I never seem to have an actual choice of when the exercises begin, They just do.

So where is this seemingly passive I, which has no choice in when exercise begin?

Please don’t just reply from memory, but investigate it when you exercising next time.

Particular attention has been a=paid to this process, and a decision to start coming from some central controller

This notion of ‘central controller’ is something important.

So, I would like to ask you to search for this ‘central controller’ any time during the day, when any decision is made. It’s important to do the inquiry in the midst of everyday life.

Where is the location for this ‘central controller’?
How do you know that there is a central controller? What is giving that impression?

When walking, is there a controller moving the body, or there is only waking happening?
When typing, is there a controller making the fingers move, or typing is just happening?
When thinking, is there a controller deciding what to think next, or thinking is just happening?

Vivien

[Ainonia]

Hi Vivien,

Focus your attention to the felt sensations of the eyes, and inquire:
Do these sensations performing the act of seeing?

No. It becomes clear that they are used for seeing, but do not perform the act itself.

What does experience show?

That seeing is something that is happening by using the eyes to gather information, but is not being performed by the eyes in anyway

Is there any experience of seeing at all? Or there I only what is seen, only colors and shapes?

No, there is no experience of any act of seeing, just the things that are being seen.

V: Does it FEEL that you are thinking these thoughts?
D: No, not at all. It felt like I was just observing them.

“It felt like I was just observing them” – what kind of feeling is that?

Doing this again, the feeling was introspective and dispassionate, so was therefore in reality a thought.

And where is the observer? Is there one? – look very carefully

No, there is no observer, but during looking I did briefly recognise a thought passing that I once would have called the observer. It seemed to vanish not long after it was perceived and didn't return, though there was another thoughy soon after it about the idea of he observer being fictitious.

I never seem to have an actual choice of when the exercises begin, They just do.

So where is this seemingly passive I, which has no choice in when exercise begin?

It isn't anywhere. The feeling of a lack of choice was observed to be a thought.

Please don’t just reply from memory, but investigate it when you exercising next time.

I observed this before going out for a walk today. There were thoughts of not wanting to go because I was tired and there were thoughts that wanted to go because the weather was good. After a while I began to move downstairs to put my shoes on while thoughts about where to go were observed passing by.I was aware while I was moving that I felt no sense of control over what I was doing, but was just doing them anyway, with all the thoughts that were passing through seeming to be more of a commentary on what was being done rather than anything involved with decision making.

Particular attention has been paid to this process, and a decision to start coming from some central controller

This notion of ‘central controller’ is something important.

So, I would like to ask you to search for this ‘central controller’ any time during the day, when any decision is made. It’s important to do the inquiry in the midst of everyday life.

This was something I perceived being done before going out for my walk today. I also noted it strongly when out walking my route which again felt like something with no sense of control governing it.

Where is the location for this ‘central controller’?

It couldn't be located anywhere,

How do you know that there is a central controller? What is giving that impression?

Today I often perceived that this concept did not exist at all.

When walking, is there a controller moving the body, or there is only waking happening?

No, there is only waking, Nothing was moving the body.

When typing, is there a controller making the fingers move, or typing is just happening?

Typing is just happening. That seems particularly sharply noticed as I currently type this and it's a strange feeling.

When thinking, is there a controller deciding what to think next, or thinking is just happening?

No, definitely not. Today it was often perceived that the thoughts seemed to come slightly after something was done rather than before it. Thinking was just happening.

Dave

[Vivien]

Hi Dave,

V: Focus your attention to the felt sensations of the eyes, and inquire:
Do these sensations performing the act of seeing?

D: No. It becomes clear that they are used for seeing, but do not perform the act itself.

Saying that the eyes are used for seeing is still conceptual. It’s something we learned in school. It’s not something we experience.

That seeing is something that is happening by using the eyes to gather information, but is not being performed by the eyes in anyway

This is also a learned information.

No, there is no experience of any act of seeing, just the things that are being seen.

Exactly! Now this is coming from looking at experience directly, without adding anything extra. These are the pure facts.

There is not even an experience of any act of seeing, there is just what is being seen.

When you look at the display before you, is there someone doing the seeing? Can you find even seeing? Or all there are just colors and shapes?

I was moving that I felt no sense of control over what I was doing,

Please investigate walking/moving again.

Which feels to be truer:

- I have no control over what I am doing, I am not moving the arms and legs, they just move, and I just passively observe it.
OR
- There is nothing inside moving the body. The body just moves on its own, without a person orchestrating the movements from within?

Please be careful not just to think this through, but rather experiment with the two options. Try them out, and see which one is in line with what is actually happening.

And do this not just once, not twice, but repeat this many times (20+) during the day. You can experiment with any movement, going up and down the staircase, standing up, sitting down, having a shower, brushing your teeth, doing the dishes, having a dinner, etc. Experiment with all sorts of everyday happenings.

Vivien

[Ainonia]

Hi Vivien,

When you look at the display before you, is there someone doing the seeing? Can you find even seeing? Or all there are just colors and shapes?

No, seeing isn't being done by anyone and can't be found. All there are are the colours and shapes that are being experienced

I was moving that I felt no sense of control over what I was doing,
Please investigate walking/moving again.

Which feels to be truer:

- I have no control over what I am doing, I am not moving the arms and legs, they just move, and I just passively observe it.
OR
- There is nothing inside moving the body. The body just moves on its own, without a person orchestrating the movements from within?

I paid close attention to this while out walking today, and the second option felt more true.

Please be careful not just to think this through, but rather experiment with the two options. Try them out, and see which one is in line with what is actually happening.

Experimenting with the first option, it could feel quite believable that a passive observer was present, but what was interesting to note was when concentration began to be turned to something else, such as crossing the road, or if I simply forgot to continue doing it, then the automatic movements of the body continued without the impression of a passive observer being present anyway. When the experiment then turned to observing with the option of there being no passive observer or central controller present, there was no illusion of its existence to disappear whenever attention fell away. This was in line with the idea that the passive observer was actually the product of thoughts, while concentrating on there being no observer present meant that there was no imaginary presence to 'forget about.'

And do this not just once, not twice, but repeat this many times (20+) during the day. You can experiment with any movement, going up and down the staircase, standing up, sitting down, having a shower, brushing your teeth, doing the dishes, having a dinner, etc. Experiment with all sorts of everyday happenings.

This was done several times over the course of the day in a variety of different ways, including the walking exercise above, pushups, getting out of bed, messaging people, deciding what and when to do activities, and so on. Whatever the exercise being done was, the result was no different than above. A particularly good example of another observation came while writing this when I felt a sudden itch on my chest. Without any thinking or control over it, my hand reached to the itch and scratched it without any king of command or observation taking place. It just happened automatically. A second or so after starting to scratch I then had a sense of realisation that the act had happened without being controlled or observed, and that the noticing of the itch being scratched felt far more like a passing thought than any kind of passive observer or central controller. Catching the action happening and then watching the thought that felt like 'I' arise before watching it quickly disappear was very revealing for me as a way of spotting the difference between the two options I was looking into in this exercise.

Dave.

[Vivien]

Hi Dave,

You did a nice investigation!

Investigate the following in your daily life:

Is there someone within, controlling the body?
What is controlling the body? Is there something doing it, or the body just moving on its own effortlessly?

Is there someone inside the head, thinking thoughts?
What is deciding what to think next?
Is thinking a doing, or an effortless happening?

Vivien

[Ainonia]

Hi Vivien,

Is there someone within, controlling the body?

No, there's definitely not a central controller acting inside the body. This concept wasn't encountered once during my observations today.

What is controlling the body? Is there something doing it, or the body just moving on its own effortlessly?

There is nothing doing it, it just moves without any kind of effort or planning.

Is there someone inside the head, thinking thoughts?

No, the thinker of thoughts doesn't exist. The concept of it hasn't been encountered toady, though many thoughts have been seen coming and going.

What is deciding what to think next?

Nothing. Thoughts just come and go as they always do.

Is thinking a doing, or an effortless happening?

Thinking just happens. Nothing makes it happen, it just does.

Dave.

[Vivien]

Hi Dave,

You did another nice investigation :)

Look very closely.

What is that is done by a me? What is not happening effortlessly by itself?

And what about the story of Dave? There is a story about Dave, right?

But where is Dave right now?
Is Dave the body? Or is he IN the body?
Can Dave be felt or touched?

There is a story ABOUT Dave, who is the main character, right? But what does word Dave point to in reality?

Is Dave in charge of the story ABOUT Dave?
Does he make the story go the way he wants it to go or...?

Vivien

[Ainonia]

Hi Vivien,

Look very closely.

What is that is done by a me? What is not happening effortlessly by itself?

Nothing is being done be a me, and this is becoming increasingly apparent each day. All is happening effortlessly by itself without any control from anywhere else.

And what about the story of Dave? There is a story about Dave, right?

There is a story about Dave, but it's an imaginary narrative based mostly on memories.

But where is Dave right now?

Dave is a creation that has no more of a location in the world than a fictional character found in a book does. What I once perceived as 'Dave' exists only in thought.

Is Dave the body? Or is he IN the body?

Dave doesn't exist as the body or in the body.

Can Dave be felt or touched?

No, not at all.

There is a story ABOUT Dave, who is the main character, right? But what does word Dave point to in reality?

That word points to an imaginary concept that exists only in thoughts.

Is Dave in charge of the story ABOUT Dave?

No, this fictional character is a fabricated antagonist that has no say in anything that happens. The impression that this Dave has any kind of control is only found in thoughts.

Does he make the story go the way he wants it to go or...?

No, the imaginary Dave has no ability to make the story go the way that it wants.

Dave