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vinceschubert
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Re: Ready to dive in...

Postby vinceschubert » Sat Sep 01, 2012 10:58 am

yes, because that's my overall day to day experience,
Can you be more specific ?
Is it really experiencing as you say ? If it is, then how do you experience that I ?
If when you say that it's your ... experience, but you really mean that you think about it ... ?
then what we write Here (all expressions of thought) are in some sense beside the point.
Yes, as the signpost isn't what is written on it, these words are Not IT.
i can point to flashes of new perspective or insight
When experiencing this, is there any I present ?
I'm not sure any of it has been beyond thought
Investigate. See if thought doesn't come in afterwards.
but thought nonetheless.
You sound so sure. Did thought arrive at this conclusion ?
liberation starts with recognising some illusions

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ixturtle
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Re: Ready to dive in...

Postby ixturtle » Sun Sep 02, 2012 4:30 pm

On my iPhone I couldn't see there was a new page so was thinking that you had grown tired of this interchange. I at least am exceptionally tired of myself but in any case thanks for showing up-- it must take a lot of patience to watch someone needlessly beat their head against a wall
If when you say that it's your ... experience, but you really mean that you think about it ... ?
Most of my day right now is composed of a totally identified internal dialogue-- yes all thought, and an almost overwhelming degree of thoughts btw, that are shallow, unkind or downright mean. Really, it feels like the "self" I've been running around as the last 10 years has nothing to do with the "self" that's arising right now. Yipes.
It is sinking in that even all this is balogna but that just leaves me free falling
When experiencing this, is there any I present ?
That's the thing-- there's a sense of a more spacious (and relieved) I that's watching, and so in that sense it must just be more projection
Investigate. See if thought doesn't come in afterwards
The flashes feel far and few between right now, but it seems that thought jumps in right away-- which I realize is fine if that too is seen, which I suppose it sort of is, but I don't know... will keep an eye out, though we've already established that thats not something I can "do"

It seems like looking for morels-- you can't see them until you do, and then they are everywhere...
But to keep with that analogy, i feel suspicios enough that these are false morels (since false morels look more like a brain, this works well!) not to eat them...
You sound so sure. Did thought arrive at this conclusion ?
Yes of course. Argggg!!

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vinceschubert
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Re: Ready to dive in...

Postby vinceschubert » Sun Sep 02, 2012 10:00 pm

so was thinking that you had grown tired of this interchange.
stories huh ?
it must take a lot of patience to watch someone needlessly beat their head against a wall
Patience is part of the old world, it is only needed if there is a (believed) story about future.
This is more like watching a baby being born. It's a rollercoaster, but it's beautiful.
of thoughts btw, that are shallow, unkind or downright mean.
Judgement and opinions are a wast of space. Seeing this stuff prompted humor, a chuckle, as seeing was a freeing from them.
but that just leaves me free falling
This is often reported by the freshly awakened.
That's the thing-- there's a sense of a more spacious (and relieved) I that's watching, and so in that sense it must just be more projection
Yes, but examine it experientially. An identity is an identity. There is no need to identify with a new improved version of self. There is no need to identify with anything. Investigate, is it really an I, or is that just the old way of describing the indescribable ?
it seems that thought jumps in right away
If thoughts are triggered by experiencing, the have to be after, even if only a nano second later. Keep watching this.
ix, you are SO close !

love
liberation starts with recognising some illusions

http://www.1ness.info

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ixturtle
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Re: Ready to dive in...

Postby ixturtle » Tue Sep 04, 2012 2:03 pm

Since yesterday I've been trying to respond to whats here but I keep running into a brick wall. The mind seems incapable of seeing this through any lens but identity (albeit different layers of it). There's a subtle logic based acceptance that that identification is fabricated but no confidence. Which must mean no genuine experience in seeing what is without some sort of identified lens. Which means I don't even know what I'm looking for anymore-- obviously since the "I" cannot look... Looking happens. But nevertheless looking seems glued to an "I"...
If thoughts are triggered by experiencing, the have to be after, even if only a nano second later. Keep watching this.
Yes yes yes. And I know I don't need to stop them all to see this, that everything is happening regardless of the thoughts, regardless of the identification. That those layers are superfluous-- which brings us back to surrender-- trusting that what's always there is enough. It's clear that mind wants to surrender without surrendering... Sigh.

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Re: Ready to dive in...

Postby vinceschubert » Tue Sep 04, 2012 10:33 pm

But nevertheless looking seems glued to an "I"...
Oh ix, you are looking past it.
Take an example; An object is seen. Seeing occurs. Light of various wavelengths enter the eye and this stimulates nerves which trigger the brain to see shape and colour. At this point the brain consults a database of previous experiences and learned information to arrive with a label "tree".
It is at this point that mind enters the show. It might say "just a tree, like the colour and shape" and minds' physical component, emotion, kicks in and a good feeling happens. At this point most people are 'seeing' what was in the database and not the actual tree. This all happens automatically and takes nano seconds.
Can you imagine if we didn't consult the database ? Everything would be seen as if for the first time and there would be an overwhelming flood of information that needed to be sorted. But the database has been filled with both useful and 'actuality distorting' information. We just need to sort out the wheat from the chaff and allow the inappropriate to 'bleed' away.
The point i make here is that this process is mind seeing mind. To think ABOUT what is occurring, to recognise, involves thought. But only original thought. First thought. This is how communication occurs. Labels are applied, then we need awareness, not to start relating to the label instead of the actual. The minds I kicks in as soon as we have opinion or judgement and obviously we have to think to consider if that is occurring.
To say that an I is involved here maybe nothing more than a recognition of a familiar, habit form.
If you see the opinions that ring the alarm bells for I involvement, then identification is broken. It's the unthinking wallowing in judgements that is to be seen.
Thoughts will never go away completely. The I will always be on call for when it is useful, but will always be seen as story.
It's clear that mind wants to surrender without surrendering
Exactly. It's an oxymoron. Mind can't surrender. Mind can only do what it has been trained to do.
Let mind do whatever it wants, just watch...
Watch for opinion, belief, judgement. These are signals that mind is leading you astray.
Watch for opinion about opinion too.
Just watch..., relax and watch. It's the best entertainment ever. The stuff of a movie.
Nothing to do but watch...
liberation starts with recognising some illusions

http://www.1ness.info

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Re: Ready to dive in...

Postby ixturtle » Wed Sep 05, 2012 2:52 am

This all feels right in line with my day-- an enexpected blessing of nothing to do or be for a full day by myself and in that stillness and quiet I got a whiff of magic and laughter back. And small recognitions of the mind's play... with time, with ownership, with story. No sonic booms of course, and the mind still contends that it's all through a thinking periscope. But As i sat in the bathtub I saw clearly that the sink and toilet before me just were, regardless of whether or not I labeled them and that the same could be said for me. Then i discovered in a pile a perfect book to read-- a surprise find (on robert lax) in this 100 year old cabin. Later as I began to make plans for tomorrow to get on with my journey, my uncle-- a very wise and spiritual man-- called to say he was passing through and could we have lunch. And so journey "homeward" is postponed at least until the afternoon. And I know that even the thoughts/beliefs that underlie this "flow" are just a layer of unneeded labels and interpretation. So easy for the mind to cling to the next thing, especially when it feels easeful and pleasant.

But yes, still watching. And hopefully very soon sleeping...
Love love
ix

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vinceschubert
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Re: Ready to dive in...

Postby vinceschubert » Wed Sep 05, 2012 9:49 am

Tears of joy as reading your post happens. Beautiful.
Probably no need to say this, but...
Mind will want to seduce or coerce 'you' back into the familiar.
Watching is the antidote.
i see that the shift has happened, do you ?

love
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Re: Ready to dive in...

Postby ixturtle » Wed Sep 05, 2012 2:21 pm

Mind will want to seduce or coerce 'you' back into the familiar.
Yes, the force and weight of the habitual feels so strong. Even in a night's dreaming-- the mind exerts its influence, its insistence. It seems so easy for whats seen to be unseen that the mind's conclusion is that nothing truly has been seen, just more thinking periscope. Of course, this too is just story. As you say, keep watch.
i see that the shift has happened, do you
Hahaha... Shifting happens all the time. As for "the shift", I have had many insights come and go. They feel like glimpses of images that dissolve like riples in a moonlit pond. Will they grow instead? There is an "expectation" (since I'm sure that's your next question) that the shift would bring momentum to what's seen. From say a sliver of light to a cracked open window to a wide open door and perhaps one day to a wide open field and beyond. But this whole expectation rests on a future, which requires a mind to imagine it. which means it is unnecessary.
So yes, whatever's here feels fragile, and in some sence already gone, changing, slipping away. Like it needs to be yanked back with great vigilance and effort. How to surrender instead?
As you say, keep watching. There is nothing else...(?)

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Re: Ready to dive in...

Postby vinceschubert » Wed Sep 05, 2012 9:49 pm

ix, give me your take on these questions;
1) Is there a 'me', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever? how about self, is there anything that is separate from everything else?

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works.

3) How does it feel to see this? describe in detail.

4) How would you describe it to somebody who has never heard about this illusion but is curious about it.

5) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look? was there a specific moment when seeing happened or was it gradual? what exactly happened?

6) When you say "I", what are you referring to?

7) Is there an experiencer experiencing, or is there only experience?

Actually look. Does experience belong to the body, or does the body belong to experience? (Thanks, James)

8) What did you experience at the moment you awoke?

9) Describe your experience in the hours and days following awakening
liberation starts with recognising some illusions

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ixturtle
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Re: Ready to dive in...

Postby ixturtle » Fri Sep 07, 2012 2:09 am

Well...If you had been present this morning when I read your post, I can assure you that "awake" is not the adjective you would have used to describe me. (!!) And now, after perhaps my most difficult (physically, and also psychically) day's journey yet, I'm way too pooped to respond in detail. I will be home --ojala-- tomorrow eve, complete with regular sized keyboard. And I will do my best to give you the benefit of the doubt... As you say, you're in a better position to judge than I...
Now, to bed! Ahhhhh....

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Re: Ready to dive in...

Postby ixturtle » Sat Sep 08, 2012 3:00 am

feels great to be home again-- at least re., physical abode
long journey on many fronts
you once said to take all the time i need
so i'll claim another day to regroup
will be all yours tomorrow
"i" promises...

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vinceschubert
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Re: Ready to dive in...

Postby vinceschubert » Sat Sep 08, 2012 4:17 am

When you say "all yours", do you mean that your offering the illusory self ?
i can't wait.
liberation starts with recognising some illusions

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ixturtle
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Re: Ready to dive in...

Postby ixturtle » Sat Sep 08, 2012 11:22 pm

When you say "all yours", do you mean that your offering the illusory self ?
i can't wait.
ha ha...

lots of resistance arising-- from the business to the tiredness to the deep need to do anything but this. a day's rest later, i still feel like i will have nothing to offer you.

but i will go through your questions one by one:
1) Is there a 'me', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever? how about self, is there anything that is separate from everything else?
rather than giving the logical answer to this question which i've given before, i will instead offer the rant: YES THERE IS A ME. THERE IS THE ME THAT AT ONE POINT TWO DAYS AGO WAS SITTING ON A PARK BENCH IN THE MIDDLE OF NOWHERE AND WAS FREAKING OUT BECAUSE OF ASSORTED CIRCUMSTANCES AND WENT INTO SURVIVAL MODE AND "FIGURED OUT" A SOLUTION AND THEN ENGAGED IN A PHYSICALLY CHALLENGING AND RATTLING "EFFORT" AND PULLED IT OFF. and meanwhile i was asking myself, what would "surrender" here look like? is it surrendering to all this as it's happening (the freaking out, the figuring out, the efforting through) or is it simply not freaking out at all, not figuring out, not efforting through. staying or going, whichever. allowing, without having an answer. without knowing.

of course this whole "story" is just story and the surrendering transcends the circumstances, yes? BUT i so feel like the latter way is more lovely. when i'm in that mode, the "i" story seems easy to see through. all the thoughts are just overlay to the experience. just notice what arises next. smile. enjoy. be amazed. but when push comes to shove, which is to say the i feels threatened at all (or feels it has something it must "do") then all this overlay becomes front and center. total identification. total sense of "controlling" what's next, or attempting to anyway.
2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works.
at some point in early childhood years the brain develops neural networks that distinguish self from other and these networks get reinforced inside and out as this distinction is seen as vital to the body/mind's survival... AND PROBABLY IS to a certain extent. these networks are conditioned by DNA/experience to label what the mind perceives through the body, to apply adjectives like good and bad and phrases like i want more and i want less and WHOLE STORIES about the world and the body/mind's place within it.

3) How does it feel to see this? describe in detail.
it feels lovely when i see something of it, but this seems to only happen when conditions allow-- when things are quiet and still and no one else is around. if there's movement or noise or relationship, it evaporates into something that feels dreamy and unreal and inaccessible.
4) How would you describe it to somebody who has never heard about this illusion but is curious about it.
i guess i would just say that there's experience and there's a story about experience. one is real and one is imagined. that which is imagined uses lots of self-referencing language, but if you X out all that language, there is just experience, there is just what's happening. there is awareness of what's happening, but there is no "I" for anything to happen "to" because "I" requires the story.
5) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look? was there a specific moment when seeing happened or was it gradual? what exactly happened?
of course, there is a strong story that "seeing" has NOT happened, BUT there has been a sputtery process of little glimpses here and there that come and go at their whim, mostly when its quiet and still and the "I"s incessant job of protecting/ controlling relaxes a bit.
6) When you say "I", what are you referring to?
thoughts about this conglomeration of mind/body/awareness. "I" can reference thoughts about thoughts, thoughts about body, thoughts about awareness (of thoughts and body).
7) Is there an experiencer experiencing, or is there only experience?
DOH. this one is a tough one. as noted above, without the story, there's no "I" and thus there's no experiencer. there does appear to be awareness of experience, but i'm not sure if this qualifies as "only experience."
Actually look. Does experience belong to the body, or does the body belong to experience? (Thanks, James)
the experience of the body arises as part of experience. not so clear on this one though. if i look at my fingers typing, it does seem that the fingers belong to the typing more than the typing belongs to the fingers, but just very subtly. maybe i'm not looking at this right.
8) What did you experience at the moment you awoke?
let's just assume that one can awaken and go back to sleep a thousand times (which goes against the general notion of "once seen, can't be unseen" but so be it). in that case, there is a relaxing, a smiling, a trusting, a sense of amusement, a sense of magic, a sense of wonder. but this just seems to be particular conditions (which i like).
9) Describe your experience in the hours and days following awakening
some ebb and flow followed by major RESISTANCE and disorientation and confusion and exasperation followed by "OK, keep trudging away...and maybe you'll get it"

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Re: Ready to dive in...

Postby vinceschubert » Sun Sep 09, 2012 8:59 am

lots of resistance arising-- ... to the deep need to do anything but this.
This kind of resistance suggests we are knocking at the door. Mind uses avoidance to stay familiar. (safe)
SITTING ON A PARK BENCH IN THE MIDDLE OF NOWHERE AND WAS FREAKING OUT
If we analyze this a little, without doubt the "freaking out" was happening because of a story (of disaster etc) Strong emotions (emotions are the physical component of thoughts).
WENT INTO SURVIVAL MODE AND "FIGURED OUT" A SOLUTION
Survival mode = different perspective. ie discount trivia and in this mode solutions don't get hijacked by irrelevancies.
ENGAGED IN A PHYSICALLY CHALLENGING AND RATTLING "EFFORT" AND PULLED IT OFF.
Amazing the stamina desperation can bring to a situation.
what would "surrender" here look like?
If it's happening, then (willing) acceptance of it, but if that attitude exists then freaking out wouldn't happen. Adrenalin from physical danger would, but the story induced stuff wouldn't.
allowing, without having an answer. without knowing.
Yes. See you do know.
which is to say the i feels threatened at all (or feels it has something it must "do") then all this overlay becomes front and center.
Sure, this is just old conditioning. It will stay around until it is SEEN through.
total identification. total sense of "controlling" what's next, or attempting to anyway.
Ok, "total" is a language thing. If you SEE it before, during or after, it still facilitates deconditioning. In the beginning it is usually seen some time after the event, But it IS Seen, and that's all it takes.
it feels lovely when i see something of it
Careful of a story that it will be all bliss and joy after awakening. Although, having said that there will be times when shit is occurring and there is a background sense of OK-ness.
there is a strong story that "seeing" has NOT happened
Ok, tell me what your current expectations are for when you are 'awake', liberated.
vince asked; When you say "I", what are you referring to?
ix replied; thoughts about...
So you SEE quite clearly that the I is a thought construct ?
this one is a tough one. as noted above, without the story, there's no "I" and thus there's no experiencer. there does appear to be awareness of experience, but i'm not sure if this qualifies as "only experience."
Hmm, this appears to be an intellectual response. Observe experiencing now and answer this one again.
liberation starts with recognising some illusions

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ixturtle
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Re: Ready to dive in...

Postby ixturtle » Sun Sep 09, 2012 2:18 pm

ixturtle wrote: allowing, without having an answer. without knowing.

Yes. See you do know.
"Know" is the operative word here because it arises as thought. Even in the moment there was a small part of mind throwing this up as an option, but against the weight of the need/desire to control circumstances, it didn't stand a chance. Somehow I feel if I knew it in my bones, it would be different...
If you SEE it before, during or after, it still facilitates deconditioning. In the beginning it is usually seen some time after the event, But it IS Seen, and that's all it takes.
ok. you've said this before, but its a helpful reminder.
tell me what your current expectations are for when you are 'awake', liberated
as you say, "there will be times when shit is occurring and there is a background sense of OK-ness." and i guess that points to it: a background sense of OK-ness in the midst of whatever. however it seems to me that this background sense of OK-ness would steadily reduce worry (because if everything's ok, why worry) and would diminish the importance of rehashing/controlling/planning thoughts such that eventually, less of the mind's energy would go there. i understand that that is a process, not an end result, and would continue as long as one is breathing. and, i imagine that as less energy goes to rehashing/controlling/planning there would be more room for play and wonder and compassion.
So you SEE quite clearly that the I is a thought construct ?
as i was settling into bed last night it occurred to me that thoughts are still part of this. for example,
a few days back i said
"I saw clearly that the sink and toilet before me just were, regardless of whether or not I labeled them and that the same could be said for me."

the seeing of the sink and toilet was clear-- "the same could be said for me" is a thought. and when things are still and quiet and I can use that thought to negotiate my perception of things and also to relax, which inevitably leads to more surrender, more flow. HOWEVER, it's still a thought and when the shit hits the fan (or even when there's just more static around me) that thought is over powered my much more highly conditioned thoughts.
similarly, i know that whenever i stop to look for "I", it can only be found in a thought, and in that way i can pop it like a bubble. however, this still feels like logic to me, not actual unquestioning in my bones seeing of what is true.
7) Is there an experiencer experiencing, or is there only experience?


Fingers typing. awareness of fingers typing. sigh... it does feel like there's an experiencer (awareness?), though i can recognize that that requires a thought too... this is one of those times Derek or CAM-RT would shout in capital letters, "JUST LOOK"-- but... it's like there's an experiencer lens glued onto my awareness that is quite resistant to all anti-stick strategies. it does appear to be the crux of it: the experiencer (aware of typing) and the doer (the typer)-- both of which certainly require thought but...

makes me feel like i'm at square one...


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