Ldub & Forgetmenot

[Ldub]

Hello and looking forward to connecting soon via our mutual friend Kathleen!

[forgetmenot]

Hey Lisa,

Lovely to meet you. Kathleen would have given you an idea on how I guide...and so we start from the beginning - so please put aside everything you think you already know, and let's start with an open willing mind to look at what is being pointed at.

Some housekeeping guidelines:-
1. Unless exercises given need several days to be accomplished; post at least every second day. If you need more time, or are unable to post for several days, just write a quick post on your thread to let me know. If you wish to post every day, that too is okay!

2. Please answer what's true for you once you have looked to see what is being pointed at, rather than any sort of 'ideal' answer. Ideal answers may sound good but will be of no benefit to you in having you realise that there is no separate self. There is no one judging answers given, so please be 100% honest in your answers and inquiry.

3. This exploration is based on actual experience (AE) - smell, taste, sound, sensation, colour and observed thoughts. Long-winded analytical and philosophical answers are best avoided and may even hinder progress. This is not a self-improvement process. There is no ‘self’ to improve.

4. Put aside all other teachings, philosophies, rituals, practices, books/reading and so on for the remainder of this investigation. Really put all your effort and attention in to seeing this reality, as it is. If you have a daily meditation practice, it is fine to continue that but is not necessary for this exploration. Be here with an open and curious mind.

5. Please learn to use the quote function. When replying to a question, please use the quote function to highlight the question being answered. Instructions are located in the link below:

https://www.liberationunleashed.com/na ... f=4&t=660

6. Can you please confirm that you have read the disclaimer.

http://liberationunleashed.com/disclaimer-2/

7. Technology is not perfect and sometimes there is a glitch which can wipe out your responses. It is advisable that you copy and paste questions asked into Word, answer them there and then copy and paste them to your thread. Always save a copy of what you have done in Word - it will save you time in the long run!

Okay...so to begin with, so that we both become aware of what your expectations are about this exploration ie what life will look like; what life will feel like and what you want/hope will change or not change etc...could you please answer the 4 following questions in your own words:-

How will life change?
How will you change?
What will be different?
What is missing?

Throughout this exploration I would like you to answer all questions that I have written in blue text. Please answer questions individually, remembering to use the quote function to highlight the question being answered.

Kay

[Ldub]

Hi Kay - lovely to meet you too, and thank you for guiding me in this process.

Can you please confirm that you have read the disclaimer.

Yes I have.

How will life change?

I don't expect life will change much from the outside

How will you change?

How I relate to the story of 'me', what drives me, and an awareness that allows life to be lived through me without me having to think I need to orchestrate it. A greater clarity when I'm pulled to the past-future by the story.

What will be different?

More ease in dropping the bone and surrendering to what is.Being lived through rather than 'making things happen'. More love.

What is missing?

Nothing is missing. I just haven't let go of what creates the feeling that something is missing inside me.

[forgetmenot]

Hi Lisa,

Becoming aware of expectations is to just be conscious of them throughout the investigation…as expectations can hinder the realisation that one has had the realisation….as the shift can be subtle.

How will you change?

How I relate to the story of 'me', what drives me, and an awareness that allows life to be lived through me without me having to think I need to orchestrate it. A greater clarity when I'm pulled to the past-future by the story.

This exploration (deconstruction) of the finite separate self is a good way of seeing how the seeming separate self is created over and over, although there are lots of subtle layering that needs to be seen through as well…but that is something you do after you have had the realisation. Seeing through the self is just the beginning as layers of conditioning, beliefs and emotions certainly don’t fall away overnight. There has never been a you orchestrating life, just like there isn’t one now who orchestrated the desire to see through it….it is simply happening and it SEEMS like there is a ‘me’ who is doing it and to whom it is happening to.

What will be different?

More ease in dropping the bone and surrendering to what is.Being lived through rather than 'making things happen'. More love.

Whatever is happening is happening, and everything that is happening has already been allowed, otherwise it wouldn’t be happening. …this includes the idea of there being a me who is making things happen and who doesn’t seem to ‘drop the bone’ with ease.

What is missing?

Nothing is missing. I just haven't let go of what creates the feeling that something is missing inside me.

Is this feeling an actual sensation in the body, or is it just a thought?
If it is an actual sensation…does the sensation itself suggest in any way that it is missing something? Or is it simply an appearing thought that suggests this?

Okay, now we become aware of actual experience (AE) and what LOOKING is.
‘Looking’ is just plain looking at what is here right now. Actual experience (AE) is image/colour, sound, smell, sensation, taste and the simple knowing of thought at face value. The term ‘actual experience’ (AE) is used to refer to experience ‘right now,’ without the thought stories. So, LOOKING’ is just plain looking at actual experience (AE) in the current moment. It is no different to looking for your car keys when you think you have misplaced them. But instead of looking for car keys, you are looking at AE - the raw experience MINUS the labels and thoughts ABOUT the raw experience. The key to this exploration is the careful LOOKING. Why? Because it’s the act of actually LOOKING and not finding an “I” that brings about the realisation of there being no separate self.

So we are going to learn what actual experience is and what LOOKING entails.

I would like you to sit somewhere quiet and become aware of sounds. Close your eyes and just listen to the sounds for a few minutes. Really hear them.

Tell me ONE sound that you heard when doing this? And make sure that the sound is something you will hear again, for the next phase of this exercise.

Kay

[Ldub]

Whatever is happening is happening, and everything that is happening has already been allowed

Who/what is 'allowing' things to happen?

Tell me ONE sound that you heard when doing this? And make sure that the sound is something you will hear again, for the next phase of this exercise.

To answer simply - a chirping sound.
What I also noticed was as each sound was heard, the mind then went to the thought of what it was vs the AE. Without the thought of what the sound was, there was no distinction - it all became just what was happening.

[forgetmenot]

Hi Lisa,

Whatever is happening is happening, and everything that is happening has already been allowed

Who/what is 'allowing' things to happen?

This question will more than likely be answered as we move through this investigation, or it might be one that gets answered after this exploration has ended. Realising that there is no finite separate self is just a beginning. Me answering questions is of no value to you. It is the LOOKING at what is being pointed at that helps you to find your own answers to your own questions. This has more value than me answering....otherwise you might as well just go read another spiritual book that gives you answers. It's having actual aha moments that turns things around...not the intellectual knowing of it.

Tell me ONE sound that you heard when doing this? And make sure that the sound is something you will hear again, for the next phase of this exercise.

To answer simply - a chirping sound.

What I also noticed was as each sound was heard, the mind then went to the thought of what it was vs the AE. Without the thought of what the sound was, there was no distinction - it all became just what was happening.

Yes. So to ensure that this is clear. I would like you to listen to the chirping sound again. And use the whole thought…the initial thought that would have said something like…”birds are making a chirping sound”. The point of this exercise is to get to start to see the difference between AE and the content of thought. You may be aware of this already…however, we are starting this thread from scratch as I need to know where you are at, in order to ensure that the realisation of ‘no self’ happens.

So to make sure that it is clear what the ‘chirping sound’ actually is, please repeat
the exercise and answering only from actual experience (AE) (ie sound, colour, taste, smell, sensation, face value of thought), tell me...

- How is it known that the sound is ' (birds) chirping’? In other words, what is it that says the sound is ‘(birds) chirping’?
- What is the actual experience of ‘(birds) chirping’?

Kay

[Ldub]

- How is it known that the sound is ' (birds) chirping’? In other words, what is it that says the sound is ‘(birds) chirping’?
- What is the actual experience of ‘(birds) chirping’?

The AE of birds chirping is only the chirping sound. I only hear the sound of it. I don't actually know what it comes from as I don't see where the sound is coming from.
My mind is what says it's birds making that sound, but I dont actually know as I sit here and listen to the sound.

[forgetmenot]

Hi Lisa,

- How is it known that the sound is ' (birds) chirping’? In other words, what is it that says the sound is ‘(birds) chirping’?
- What is the actual experience of ‘(birds) chirping’?

The AE of birds chirping is only the chirping sound. I only hear the sound of it. I don't actually know what it comes from as I don't see where the sound is coming from.
My mind is what says it's birds making that sound, but I dont actually know as I sit here and listen to the sound.

Yes, it is thought that suggests sound = bird. Even the label 'sound' overlays experience itself with a description.

The interpretation of actual experience happens quickly. So while inquiring, labelling and interpretation will always appear, but it is possible to become aware of the thoughts that appear with, and overlay actual experience. Another key component of this exploration is being able to tell the difference between actual experience and the interpretation by thought (thought content) of actual experience

The following exercise points to what I mean.

For this exercise you will need an apple or any other piece of fruit will do.



Have a look at an apple. When ‘looking at an apple’, there's colour; a thought saying ‘apple’; and maybe a thought saying, "I'm looking at an apple."
What is known for sure is the actual experience of colour and the actual experience of thought.

What about the content of thoughts, what they describe?
Actual experience does not refer to thoughts ABOUT something…because that is only just more thought. Actual experience is sound, thought, colour, smell, taste, sensation.

Is there really an ‘apple’ here, or only colour and a thought ABOUT ‘apple’?
Can ‘apple’ be found in actual experience?

While these thoughts are known, what they talk ABOUT can't be found in actual experience.

This is what is meant by ‘looking in actual experience - what you know for sure and is always here.

The label ‘apple’ is known
Taste labelled ‘apple’ is known
Colour labelled ‘apple’ is known
Sensation labelled ‘apple’ is known (when apple is touched)
Smell labelled ‘apple’ is known
Thought about/of an ‘apple’ is known
However, is an apple actually known?

Kay

[Ldub]

Is there really an ‘apple’ here, or only colour and a thought ABOUT ‘apple’?
Color and a thought about apple only.
Can ‘apple’ be found in actual experience?
Apple can't be found in AE.

However, is an apple actually known?

An apple can't be known because 'apple' doesn't exist outside of the name it's been given.

[forgetmenot]

Hello Lisa,

However, is an apple actually known?

An apple can't be known because 'apple' doesn't exist outside of the name it's been given.

Yes..exactly. It is only thought that labels it as an 'apple' and then goes onto describe what an apple is, where it comes from, what its properties are etc.

Here's an exercise that I would like you to try as many times throughout the day, as you can, for a couple of days. Label daily activities, objects and emotions simply colour/image, sound, smell, taste, sensation, thought.

So for example, when having breakfast, become aware of:

Seeing a cup, simply= colour
Smelling coffee, simply = smell,
Feeling the warmth of the coffee cup, simply = sensation.
Tasting the coffee, simply = taste
Hearing the spoon stirring the coffee, simply = sound
Thought about drinking the coffee, simply = thought.

Just break down objects, emotions and daily activities into these categories (which are all actual experience) and report back how you go, giving some examples please.

Kay

[Ldub]

Just break down objects, emotions and daily activities into these categories (which are all actual experience) and report back how you go, giving some examples please.

going for a walk:
a person passing me - mouth turned upwards
sensation of warmth on my face = sensation
brightness of light in my eyes = color
smell of sweetness = smell
hearing a bird = sound

reading an email:
seeing words on the screen = color on a screen
sensation of tightness in my chest = sensation
thought of "i'm wrong for suggesting that" = thought
fingers typing = movement, sensation

drinking morning shake:
taste of sweetness = taste
texture of thick liquid = sensation
smell of chocolate = smell

[forgetmenot]

Hello Lisa,

going for a walk:
a person passing me - mouth turned upwards

Where in actual experience (AE) does “mouth turned upwards” sit? Is it a sensation, thought, smell, taste or sound?

reading an email:
seeing words on the screen = color on a screen

What is the AE of a screen?

fingers typing = movement, sensation

Is ‘movement’ known as AE?

Being clear about your direct actual experience (AE) is a key component of this exploration. So I would like you to spend another couple of days doing this exercise. Sit in a room and become aware of your direct actual experience and give me examples. When doing the dishes or having a shower....become aware of your direct actual experience. You need to incorporate looking at what your direct actual experience is...throughout your day, everyday...in all your experiences.


Kay

[forgetmenot]

Hello Lisa....how are you proceeding with becoming clear with AE?

Kay

[Ldub]

Hi Kay - I've been practicing more with this in daily life.

Where in actual experience (AE) does “mouth turned upwards” sit? Is it a sensation, thought, smell, taste or sound?

Thought.

What is the AE of a screen?

Thought.

Is ‘movement’ known as AE?

Movement isn't AE. It would be broken down to sensation.

Another example:
doing dishes -
water on my hands - sensation
the dish soap - smell
bubbles - image/color

conversation with my friend -
voices - sound
tightness in my belly - sensation

taking a shower -
water - sound and sensation

sitting in the room right now -
dishwasher running - sound
son leaning up against me - sensation
his foot moving - image and thought of 'foot'
fullness in my chest - sensation
son - thought

[forgetmenot]

Hello Lisa,

Where in actual experience (AE) does “mouth turned upwards” sit? Is it a sensation, thought, smell, taste or sound?

Thought.

There are thoughts about a mouth turning upwards, but what is the actual experience? I would like you to close your eyes and then slowly turn your mouth upwards. Now…look carefully, what is the actual experience of ‘turning mouth upwards’?

What is the AE of a screen?

Thought.

There are thoughts about a screen, but what is the actual experience? Is it not colour? The screen itself is the AE of colour and thoughts point to colour and labels it a screen. Can you see this?

Is ‘movement’ known as AE?

Movement isn't AE. It would be broken down to sensation.

Yes..exactly. Nice looking.

Okay, here is an exercise which points out the difference between actual experience and content of thought.

There are two types of thoughts:
(1) Thoughts with words “Here is cup”
(2) Visual mental images of a ‘cup’

So I invite you to do this exercise:
Think of a cup. Get a very clear picture in your mind. See clearly the size, shape, colour and volume of the cup. Notice whether it is decorated or plain. Notice whether it has a handle. Notice whether it is heavy or fragile. Do you have a clear picture in mind?

Now, can you physically grasp that image of a cup?
Can you pour tea into it?
Can you drink from it?

Is there a ‘real’ cup or just an image of a cup?
Is there an appearing mental image?
Is the content of the mental image (the cup) ‘real’?

The thoughts and mental images are real (actual experience) only as arising thoughts and mental images, their ‘presence’ cannot be denied. However their contents, what are they about (like the cup) are not ‘real’, they are just fantasies. In other words, the picture/idea that thought is ‘painting’ is the content of thought and is fictional.
Can you see this?

Over the course of the next day or so, I'd like you to notice the content of thoughts. Whenever there is an arising thought or mental image, check whether its content (what it’s about) is REALLY happening, or the content is just pure imagination. Let me know how it goes.

Kay