Hi

[Philosoraptr]

Tbh the addict I was talking about was me and my thought processes around alcohol

Yes the addict label is just an identity that thought is attached to and might be where a lot of past gets stuck to. Once we are through with clearing up the doubts around the self, we can look into other labels that might be sticky.

Interestingly it seems very clear when focusing on sound that there is no hearer. It seems easier to drop into this understanding than the other senses.

Yes hearing is an easier sense. Seeing is conditioned heavily with beliefs.

Exercise..

Have a look around you.  You can see colours of the room, of your 'feet’, of your ‘knees’, of your ‘chest’ and perhaps of your 'hands'. 

Now point a finger towards the place where others see your head and face.

What do you see? Do you see your face? Do you see your head? 
Do you see anything at all there - any colours, shapes, or any movement? 
Looking into the place where others see your face, do you see colours or shapes there? 
What do you find?

[Matty317]

I cannot see my face,and head , I can see my finger pointing but the eyes only project towards hence not seeing face and head.

[Philosoraptr]

I cannot see my face,and head , I can see my finger pointing but the eyes only project towards hence not seeing face and head.

Ok so what is the finger pointing at in direct experience? Have a look at that. Don't rush to let a thought label it, but look and the fact of experience.

[Matty317]

I'm sorry I dont understand this excercise , though based on the fact that I am not my body head face eyes etc that these things are just present and they are tools /cases for organs then my answer would be that , my finger is pointing at encased organs. Am I in the right lines here?

[Philosoraptr]

No this look at it differently. The answers you mentioned would be concepts. In direct experience what the finger points to is not seen or visible..all there is are colors in your field, this another way to see that no seer is seen.

Feel free to give it a other go or I have another exercise for you. Please answer to each question.

Go out into nature and spend some time watching the movement of the whole. See how clouds move, trees swing, leaves wiggle, grass moves, insects, birds - all move all the time.

Then move focus to sensations and see how they too are in constant motion, thoughts come and go, sounds, colours, sensations come and go.

Notice that everything is part of one movement.

Then close your eyes and see if there is a line between you and out there, between you and life itself. If yes, where is the boundary?
Is there an inside and an outside of Life?
Is there something which is not included in the movement of the whole?
Is there a witness that is watching life happening from a distance?
Is witnessing part of the one movement too?
Is there anything which is not just happening?

Go out, come back and tell me what you found.

[Matty317]

Then close your eyes and see if there is a line between you and out there, between you and life itself.

If yes, where is the boundary?

There is no boundary I am a piece of the whole

Is there an inside and an outside of Life?

No

Is there something which is not included in the movement of the whole?

No all is included

Is there a witness that is watching life happening from a distance?

No

Is witnessing part of the one movement too?

Yes if engaged

Is there anything which is not just happening?

No all is just happening , all of nature moving trees , grass , wind , river flowing , bird song , even traffic on the road just happening on it's own all randomly doing stuff inc my emotions sensations etc. This was a great excercise I have done done of this work before with fred davis so I was familiar with this understanding.

[Matty317]

Could u please answer this question for me so I can get an understanding of what this is referring to :

Now point a finger towards the place where others see your head and face.

Thanks

[Philosoraptr]

Could u please answer this question for me so I can get an understanding of what this is referring to :
Now point a finger towards the place where others see your head and face.
Thanks

Even if no self is seen, it might still feel like there is AE of seeing, but the belief is strong that there is something watching the seeing, behind a pair of eyes.

Do this experiment of walking around outside and really see that no seer can be seen in vision. If there is a see-er then where is it?

How are you feeling with the seeing of no self? Is there any areas that feel stuck where a self is believed to be?

[Matty317]

I would say that in most situations when I remember to do some no self exercises I can move into the no self understanding but depending on where I am mentally dictates the distance away from that understanding I am. Eg trying to do a few things at once in addition to kids talking competing for my attention dog barking and biting me wanting to go for a,walk etc , the me story is firmly entrenched here. Through doing these exercises I certainly feel closer to the understanding of no self tho I feel I move towards and further from this truth depending on different circumstances.

[Philosoraptr]

when I remember to do some no self exercises

Probably just semantics, but notice that remembering happens with no one doing the remembering. Notice this when it happens and see how the thoughts will try to create a self which comes after, with the label "I remembered", when in fact no thought was present during the act of remembering.

the me story is firmly entrenched here.

The me story is a habitual movement of thought and will continue and there will be more seeing that comes up. Just try to catch (as a manner of speaking) the I thoughts claiming experience, and seeing the body as functioning quite automatically with kids and walking the dog. All functioning without a thought made self. Which might come in later and say "I" walked the dog. Can a dog be walked by a thought?

Through doing these exercises I certainly feel closer to the understanding of no self tho I feel I move towards and further from this truth depending on different circumstances.

Point to the you that moves towards or farther to the truth.
What is it that moves or appears to move? (Pls answer these)

[Matty317]

Point to the you that moves towards or farther to the truth.

The me cannot be pointed at as a physical thing , it is the experience of alignment with the false,self , and yes when seen from this perspective it can be undone intellectually.

What is it that moves or appears to move?

The idea of a false self caught up in false ideas

[Philosoraptr]

The me cannot be pointed at as a physical thing , it is the experience of alignment with the false,self , and yes when seen from this perspective it can be undone intellectually.

Yes correct. And is there anything that is doing the alignment with the false self?

Through doing these exercises I certainly feel closer to the understanding of no self tho I feel I move towards and further from this truth depending on different circumstances.

Also, what I wanted to point out here is to ask, are the thoughts that say "I move towards and further from the truth" you? Or are they mind labelling the spontaneous act of remembering and seeing the fact of how thoughts and words claim to be a false self?

[Matty317]

And is there anything that is doing the alignment with the false self?

Just a series of thoughts that appears independently.

Also, what I wanted to point out here is to ask, are the thoughts that say "I move towards and further from the truth" you? Or are they mind labelling the spontaneous act of remembering and seeing the fact of how thoughts and words claim to be a false self?

These thoughts are not me. This process is an intrinsic labelling excercise on many levels. Interesting also that when the labelling and misidentification stops the whole thing (percieved struggle/yearn for understanding) is gone and nothing is left except the feeling of being connected and part of the whole of everything.

Question for you please:

On another thread I have been reading on this forum the seeker is summarizing what they have discovered through this process , one of which was an understanding that there is no body. Is this concept a part of this process if so is it one that we have yet to explore? The body is clearly present in my experience , granted it is not a me but the skin bones and blood are truly present.

[Philosoraptr]

These thoughts are not me. This process is an intrinsic labelling excercise on many levels. Interesting also that when the labelling and misidentification stops the whole thing (percieved struggle/yearn for understanding) is gone and nothing is left except the feeling of being connected and part of the whole of everything.

Yes it looks like your seeing is clear about this. Just all arising automatically and being seen through without a seeer.

On another thread I have been reading on this forum the seeker is summarizing what they have discovered through this process , one of which was an understanding that there is no body. Is this concept a part of this process if so is it one that we have yet to explore? The body is clearly present in my experience , granted it is not a me but the skin bones and blood are truly present.

Seeing through no-self is one of the first steps in unconditioning, and there are deeper layers to see through. We did some introductory body exercises earlier and while having that understanding of the body isn't necessary if you can see clearly that there is no-self inhabiting it, we can look a bit further and see what is found.

It's important to outline that questions, which are just thoughts, will continue to come up and want to be answered. In my opinion it's fine to go ahead with finding solutions to burning questions, but at some point a comparison to what is seen by another, is a way the mind will create thoughts that say "maybe I'm not there yet", or "I still need to know" . But what is this "I" that needs "to know". It's just thought patterns like ones that come up when you look in a mirror and it might say, "I should be younger". Habitual processes. Anyway, just a disclaimer for you to catch if they get too much.

Here is an even deeper investigation of the body. Please follow each step, don't leave out any. Take your time. Don't move to the next step until the previous one is clearly seen. Repeat the exercise 5 times, each time doing the exercise, and not formulating an answer just from reading/thinking, and then answer the questions.

Stand in front of a bigger mirror.

(1) First, close the eyes and feel the sensations labelled ‘body’.

(2) Then open the eyes and look into the mirror while still paying attention to the sensations.

Is there any connection between the felt sensations and the image in the mirror?
Or just thoughts (and/or mental images) suggest that there is?

(3) While still paying attention to the sensations move one hand and observe the movement from the mirror.

Is there any connection between the felt sensations (labelled ‘hand’) and image of movement in the mirror?

(4) Now do the same movement with the hand, but this time look at the hand directly, not from the mirror.

Is there any connection between the felt sensations (labelled ‘hand’) and the image ‘of movement’? Or only thoughts suggest it?

(5) Now, pay attention only to the image in the mirror.

Does the image by itself suggest in any way that is ‘you’ or ‘your body’?
Does the image itself suggest in any way that it is a ‘body’ at all?
Or are there only colours and shapes?

(6) Where the mirror ends, some parts of the body (probably legs) cannot be seen.

Just by the image in the mirror, is there any ‘knowledge’ that there must be legs, or only thoughts and mental images suggest so?

(7) Now turn away from the mirror and look forward (don’t look directly to any body parts).

Is there a ‘body’ anywhere when all thoughts and images are ignored, or are there only sensations?

(8) Start to walk slowly.

Is there a ‘body walking’, or are there only sensations?
Is there actual experience of ‘walking’ at all?
Or just THOUGHTS ABOUT ‘walking’?
Can such a thing as ‘body’ be found OR just THOUGHTS ABOUT a ‘body’?
Can such a thing as ‘walking’ be found?

(9) Are the sensations localized in space, like ‘going through the room’; OR is there only an image that is labelled ‘room’ and appearing sensations without any location?

[Matty317]

Is there any connection between the felt sensations and the image in the mirror?
Or just thoughts (and/or mental images) suggest that there is?

No connection, yes just a labelling of a me as the familiar image

Is there any connection between the felt sensations (labelled ‘hand’) and image of movement in the mirror?

No connection

Is there any connection between the felt sensations (labelled ‘hand’) and the image ‘of movement’? Or only thoughts suggest it?

No connection just thought suggesting

Does the image by itself suggest in any way that is ‘you’ or ‘your body’?
Does the image itself suggest in any way that it is a ‘body’ at all?
Or are there only colours and shapes?

It is just an image that is a visual reference of the image if my body , not "my body"

Just by the image in the mirror, is there any ‘knowledge’ that there must be legs, or only thoughts and mental images suggest so?

Just an assumption and a memory that my legs were attached to the seen part of my body last time my body was seen at first hand/looking looked at the legs being attached to the body.

Is there a ‘body’ anywhere when all thoughts and images are ignored, or are there only sensations?

When all is stripped back to direct experience only and feeling of sensations before all labelling or thought then yes I agree there is no body at that point. Until remembering of course that there is one there.

Is there a ‘body walking’, or are there only sensations?
Is there actual experience of ‘walking’ at all?
Or just THOUGHTS ABOUT ‘walking’?
Can such a thing as ‘body’ be found OR just THOUGHTS ABOUT a ‘body’?
Can such a thing as ‘walking’ be found?

Again when all is stripped back all there is is oneness and part of the whole. All is labels on top of sensations. This is "the absolute" and from this perspective these other dimensions are non existent.

Are the sensations localized in space, like ‘going through the room’; OR is there only an image that is labelled ‘room’ and appearing sensations without any location?

Sensations appear before labels are used to create a relative world perspective.