Ready to see the truth

[Bananafish]

Hi Adam. :)


Please watch any particular object in where you are now.
Say, a chair.


Which one description describe watching a chair more
precisely? Please choose a number.


1. I'm watching a chair
2. Watching a chair
3. Watching


Best wishes,

Bananafish

[Adam81]

Please watch any particular object in where you are now.
Say, a chair.

Which one description describe watching a chair more
precisely? Please choose a number.

1. I'm watching a chair
2. Watching a chair
3. Watching

Holy hell.....watching. But even that doesn't describe it. Oh man. 'Life-ing'....existence. Okay... I see it now. No I.
I'm legitimately stunned and wondering what I do with this. Only that's obvious--nothing to do, it's being done.


Okay let me describe what is happening right now. I have--strike that--there is a sense of being sucked into, or more like falling into an abyss. My mind grabs onto something to stop this free fall. There is a recognition that this is yet another thought and the falling starts again. I'm blown away. Let me sit with this for a while. My body is sweating over this! lmao What a trip.

[Bananafish]

Great, Adam!

Please, later, inform about what followed that recognition.

You are doing a great job!

[Adam81]

Great, Adam!

Please, later, inform about what followed that recognition.

You are doing a great job!

I appreciate your words of encouragement. A massive shift in perspective happened when I read that last message. A flood of bizarre sensation came over the body. I began to sweat all over, very surreal.

I've only experienced that in the tiniest of increments before today. It was both beautiful and terrifying losing the sense of I. The first thing that followed was a flood of thought. "This is imaginary", "you're deluding yourself", things like that.

Every time they were recognized to be thoughts, the lack of a self soaked in deeper and deeper. It was as if even my vision appeared differently, as if I was looking at a flat/2d image of reality, held right to my face, so that nothing else but this image could be seen. That may sound odd, but that's what it felt like. Only I wasn't looking at an image, I was/am the image--the world. Everything in it, no separation. It's a bit overwhelming. My head feels incredibly empty--another perception, but it's there. I realized there is this contraction in the body that disappeared and things felt overwhelmingly relaxed.

Then, I watched an emotional movie and the sense of self came back. There is a realization that 'I'm switching' from this sense of self back to this all encompassing 'viewpoint' and every time the sense of self comes back, there is a contraction of the body. Incredible experience, I'm sorry if this is incoherent rambling.

[Adam81]

Well Bananafish, I think I'm good. Initially tons of thoughts flooded as to where to go from here, what to do---who's asking? Nobody, just thinking doing its thinking stuff. I see through the illusion now, although I think it will take some time to settle into this new perspective. The self is still there, I just see through it's BS now lol. I will say this is bizarre... Life just unfolding in this vast expanse. This little human doing its thing. Even any kind of formal practice seems pointless now. Thank you for assisting me, this was much shorter/sweeter than anticipated. Do you have any final thoughts or questions for me?


Adam

[Bananafish]

Hi Adam. :) Beautiful answers!

One thing ... you say "The self is still there, I just see through it's BS now lol."
What does the word "self" in the above sentence refer to?


Peace,

Bananafish

[Adam81]

One thing ... you say "The self is still there, I just see through it's BS now lol."
What does the word "self" in the above sentence refer to?

The self, although it feels pervasive, is simply thought and perception. Thought says "I" exist as the controller of my life, that I must intervene, or else! Upon closer examination, it is seen to be what it is, simply thought. Nobody thinking, nobody controlling these thoughts. Perception creates more 'reality' for the self because surely, I feel my body, I feel this self residing in my head. Again, further examination shows that to be simply sensation. Experience exists and unfolds spontaneously through the form of thought and perception. There is no I to think, there is no I to perceive. If anything, one could say I am that experience, everything and nothing. Experience, experiencing itself.

[Adam81]

One thing ... you say "The self is still there, I just see through it's BS now lol."
What does the word "self" in the above sentence refer to?

The self, although it feels pervasive, is simply thought and perception. Thought says "I" exist as the controller of my life, that I must intervene, or else! Upon closer examination, it is seen to be what it is, simply thought. Nobody thinking, nobody controlling these thoughts. Perception creates more 'reality' for the self because surely, I feel my body, I feel this self residing in my head. Again, further examination shows that to be simply sensation. Experience exists and unfolds spontaneously through the form of thought and perception. There is no I to think, there is no I to perceive. If anything, one could say I am that experience, everything and nothing. Experience, experiencing itself.

[Bananafish]

Thanks, Adam. :)

Can you clearly say that you have seen through the
illusion of separate, concrete self?

Is there anything you want to explore further?


Warmly,

Bananafish

[Adam81]

Can you clearly say that you have seen through the
illusion of separate, concrete self?

Is there anything you want to explore further?

So clearly that it scared me! This was a beautiful experience, thank you--it definitely got me through the weeds that I had been stuck in. There's so much more that I'd like to explore, but it's mostly conceptual/after the seeing type stuff. Integration into everyday life and things of that nature. Are there any forums you'd recommend?

Also, I'd like to give back and see about becoming a guide myself, would you recommend that I wait awhile?

Adam

[Bananafish]

Wonderful, Adam!
I'd be glad to be your mentor if you wish to be a guide.
You can jump in under my mentorship, after your seeing is confirmed
and your forum name is changed to blue, and then from blue to red.


And regarding integration, there are some Facebook LU groups
specializing in that area; and I also do private sessions for
those who wish to explore this further together. That can be done
through email, online chat, or online video talk.


First, though, let's get the final questions done, so that I
can make sure that we don't have any areas that are yet to be
covered ... so, here you go!


1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it ufully as you see it now.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

5) Can you talk about decision, intention, free will, choice and control? What makes things happen? How does it work? What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.

6) Anything to add?


Best wishes,

Bananafish

[Adam81]

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it ufully as you see it now.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

5) Can you talk about decision, intention, free will, choice and control? What makes things happen? How does it work? What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.

6) Anything to add?

1) There is no separate self at all, anywhere, in any way shape nor form. The separate self never existed.

2) The illusion of the separate self is succinctly what it sounds like--an illusion of a 'self'/'I'/'me' that is subjectively separated as an individual from the experience of life and all that is, e.g. 'there is me and then there is everything else'/'this is my body, these are my thoughts'. This illusory, subjective self is likely created as human beings begin to learn concepts such as "me" and "mine" which make their way into our conceptual understanding of the world at a young age, through social conditioning. This concept is deeply engrained throughout our lives and perhaps, at some point, allows one to more easily make sense of experience. However, as recently witnessed, a static/concrete separate self cannot be located by any means. In fact, when one analyzes the self, he/she sees that the self is merely a collection of thoughts and perceptions spontaneously occurring. This typically lifelong conditioning is such that thoughts repeatedly 'fight' this annihilation of the concept of a "me" and it can appear difficult to eliminate because most 'seeing' is purely conceptual (more thinking) and conceptual seeing will not work to 'eliminate' the self. Instead, one must detach from concepts to witness the true, actual experience for what it is--purely thoughts and perceptions unfolding by themselves within consciousness. It (may) then become readily apparent through experience that there never was a self to begin with.

3) It feels slightly disorientating to see this, if I'm being completely honest. There is an instinctual 'grasping', likely due to a lifelong conditioning of seeing this self (narrative within thoughts) as me. However, There has also been a distinct settling/maturation of this realization over the past few days, as the content of thoughts is seen to be more 'stories' that have no experiential reality. The difference from before I began this dialogue is crystal clear: I had a conceptual framework of 'no self' but had not witnessed it experientially until the dialogue began. I do think that this conceptual framework aided me somewhat in seeing through the illusion more quickly than if I had begun with no concept of 'no self'.

4) The part of the dialogue that pushed me through the illusion was when I was asked (heavily paraphrased) 'You're looking at a chair. which option best describes what is happening? a) Me Looking at a chair, b) me looking or c) looking.' When I read that question, there was an immediate shift in perception. Suddenly 'I' was eliminated and all there was, was the experience of watching. I was the experience of the entire room.

5) This part is more or less what I wanted to discuss--decision, intention, free will, choice and control? It sounds crazy to say, but ultimately decisions/intention/free will are made through the social conditioning that one has experienced throughout life. Decisions are made. There is no I to intervene or make decisions. The same goes for intention--merely thoughts, likely consolidated through upbringing/values etc. Ultimately, free will cannot exist.

What makes things happen? How does it work? What are you responsible for? I don't actually know what makes things happen. Some might call it grace, karma, god's will, or something of that nature. Things just happen I suppose, unfolding spontaneously as experience. What could I be responsible for? There is no I.

[Bananafish]

Hi again! Regarding the free will part,
could you give examples from your daily life?

[Adam81]

Hi again! Regarding the free will part,
could you give examples from your daily life?

Sure, I am sitting on the couch right now, looking at a laptop. A sensation of a dry mouth is felt. One could say that I am faced with the decision to get up and get a glass of water or to remain seated. However, upon closer examination, it becomes clear that a glass of water either is or is not retrieved. There is no I controlling that decision. There is thinking that says "I" am thirsty. This is not me thinking, it is simply thinking occurring. In fact there is no decision 'made' at all. The glass of water is retrieved.

There is an itching sensation on my face. I am meditating and thinking occurs that says 'I'm meditating, don't scratch it!' This is not 'me' thinking, it is thought, labeling etc. Meditation persists without scratching. I did not control the outcome of the scenario, because a separate I does not exist. All that appeared was the experience of meditating and 'not scratching'.

[Adam81]

Oh man....just typing this all out set things in even deeper. I'm watching a body type. I so thought this was me. lol I completely see why silence is the only truth....even then, it's sort of like truth's shadow. It misses the mark. Thank you for this Bananafish....so much searching. What a relief.