On the verge of knowing or is it still a belief?

[Luchana]

Hi Mike,

thank you for your reply.


How does it feel to see that the self is imaginary?

Do you notice any change, something that can be called a shift?

Is there any doubt? Or can you say with a big fat YES that it’s clear the I, as a separate self is an illusion?



Much love

Luchana

[ramziger]

Hi Luchana :)

How does it feel to see that the self is imaginary?

There is a feeling of openness, lightness in everything, less heaviness [stress/anxiety] and more calm.

Do you notice any change, something that can be called a shift?

There is little to no concern over how the image of persona Mike is perceived anymore, an ease and love with enjoying what each moment brings and for exploration anew each time without falling back on unquestioned assumptions and what was learned previously.

Is there any doubt? Or can you say with a big fat YES that it’s clear the I, as a separate self is an illusion?

Thanks to your pointed questions and perseverance in dealing with my replies, I can certainly and with a big fat YES! see clearly the “I” as a separate self is an illusion!

With love and appreciation,
Mike

[Luchana]

Hi Mike,

There is a feeling of openness, lightness in everything, less heaviness [stress/anxiety] and more calm.

Good.
I wll add some more questions if you don't mind :-)

Can you point to the moment you moved from an intellectual-based understanding of there being no separate self to a holistic experience of it?


When did the shift happened from an intellectual understanding to an experiential one?


If there were a shift, how did the shift itself felt?



Take your time.

Much love,
Luchana

[ramziger]

Hi Luchana,

Of course you can ask more questions :-)

Can you point to the moment you moved from an intellectual-based understanding of there being no separate self to a holistic experience of it?

Through this process it felt as though there were two key moments that culminated in this shift. First, was in seeing the observer itself was just a thought, this led to my first real experience in feeling as one with all of my surroundings and seeing the subtle nature of that observer thought that was deeply ingrained. Second, was seeing there is no mind/center, no perceived me. The HOW is a perceived me perceived question really shocked the system upon seeing the perceived me could only be perceived as thought. That realization made it crystal clear there is no me, no free will, no chooser, that those were all just thoughts and labels perpetuating the self belief.

When did the shift happened from an intellectual understanding to an experiential one?

There were glimpses periodically throughout many of the exercises but the most impactful occurred when realizing no mind/center as referenced in the response above.

If there were a shift, how did the shift itself felt?

After the realization of no mind/center there was a brief state of joy and excitedness feeling that last a few hours. However, overall I’d say there is more of a calm undertow of loving openness that resides ever present in the background, less focus on thoughts, more acceptance of what is being experienced in the moment.

I am tremendously grateful to you Luchana for your guidance, much love to you.
-Mike

[Luchana]

Hi Mike.

thank you for your replies.

I'm smiling while reading them :-)

What I would like to ask you now is to look at the following questions and answer as fully as you can from your own direct experience. Some of the questions are very similar with questions that I've asked you before, but regardless, please reply as if you have never answered them before.

Here they are:

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over; made you look?

5) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work? What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.

6) Anything to add?


Take you time.

Much love,
Luchana

[ramziger]

Hello dearest Luchana, hope all is well :-)

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

There is no self, no me, no I, no separate entity that is driving the show or just plain observing behind the scenes what is happening nor could there ever have been.

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

The illusion of separate self is a belief of a core subject that is the center of life experience. It started as a basis for communication and formed into a protective barrier to protect and differentiate myself from others. It was perpetuated by continuously identifying with self-referencing fear driven thoughts until exhaustion and questioning of what is the purpose of it all send me on the seekers path and after several years landed me at Liberation Unleashed. As it is seen now the self is seen and known to be just a thought and not as an eternal everlasting subject. The self thought does not disappear as a result of seeing this and when it arises it is looked into to see what pointers to truth may be coming out or bubbling to the surface from the current experience.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

There is an underlying sense of peace and calm in the flow of life experience. More openness, wonder, and genuine feelings of love and gratitude to all that is happening in the surrounding moment.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over; made you look?

An initial big push was seeing that the observer me laying back and just noticing thigs was just a thought itself. The last bit that pushed me over was in looking at my mind, this perceived center of me, and inquiring how exactly is this perceived center of me perceived? The realization that this mind/center could only possibly perceive itself as another thought snapped the thinking pattern and clearly revealed to me that it all, the mind, the chooser, free will, all were just thoughts upon thoughts, labels upon labels perpetuating that subtle belief in some central core that isn’t really there.

5) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work? What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.

These are all labels to thoughts about an action perceived in experience. There is nothing that makes or causes things to happen they just do what they do there is no one doing it, its all happening as it happens. There is no one here to be responsible for any of it, just enjoying being one with life’s flow.

6) Anything to add?

Just a tremendous amount of love and gratitude to you Luchana for helping guide me along this journey!

-Mike

[Luchana]

Hi Mike,

I've missed something in the 5th question. so here it is again:

5)

a) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work?
Give examples from your own recent experiences to how things happen and how things work.

b) What are you responsible for? Give examples from your own recent experiences to how this works.

Please give examples here.

1. The self thought does not disappear as a result of seeing this and when it arises it is looked into to see what pointers to truth may be coming out or bubbling to the surface from the current experience.

What do you mean by this comment?

"it is looked into to see" - what is it that is looking into and seeing the self thought?

"The realization that this mind/center could only possibly perceive itself as another thought"

If the mind/center could perceive itself as another thought?

Can a thought perceive itself?

Is there an actual perceiver there, in the form of a thought?

"snapped the thinking pattern and clearly revealed to me that...."

What is it exactly that this thinking pattern are revealed to?

What is it that is noticing and seeing this thinking pattern?

just enjoying being one with life’s flow.

What is it that is one with life's flow? So at one end of this 'oneness' there is 'life's flow', and what is it at its other end? What is it that is one with it?

And what is it that is enjoying this oneness?

What does this experience of 'being one with life's flow' is happening to?

Are there two things? Life's flow and something which has the ability to be one with it?


Again - not just think through the answers, but really look what is actually happening.

Just a tremendous amount of love and gratitude to you Luchana for helping guide me along this journey!

You're more than welcome. It's a real joy, Mike :-)
We are together in this journey.


Much love,
Luchana

[ramziger]

Hi Luchana,

I've missed something in the 5th question. so here it is again:

5)

a) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work?
Give examples from your own recent experiences to how things happen and how things work.

These are labels to thoughts that give illusion to a separate self controlling situations. As to what make things happen – they happen on their own, circumstances change and automatic responses occur. An example was as I was sitting here typing in response the cat meowed and put its paws up on my leg, eyes focus diverted to cat and extended hand out to pet behind its ear occurred.

b) What are you responsible for? Give examples from your own recent experiences to how this works.

There is no ‘me’ to be responsible, things continue to happen regardless of any thoughts that arise in the experience.

Please give examples here.

The 'me', 'self', 'I' are a constructs based in thought, thought content has no attributable features and cannot be held responsible for anything.

1. The self thought does not disappear as a result of seeing this and when it arises it is looked into to see what pointers to truth may be coming out or bubbling to the surface from the current experience.

What do you mean by this comment?

The thought of a separate self is not gone, it still arises from time to time and looked for underlying conditioning that needs resolution.

"it is looked into to see" - what is it that is looking into and seeing the self thought?

There is nothing doing the looking – it was attempt to point to potential for underlying conditioning that may be rising in the experience to be looked at.

"The realization that this mind/center could only possibly perceive itself as another thought"

If the mind/center could perceive itself as another thought?

the perceiving of mind/center is only another thought – a thought about a thought which donned the realization that there was nothing there but thought

Can a thought perceive itself?

No the attempt to do this donned the realizing that it was all just thought

Is there an actual perceiver there, in the form of a thought?

No

"snapped the thinking pattern and clearly revealed to me that...."

What is it exactly that this thinking pattern are revealed to?

it is revealed to nothing … it comes up in the experience as a realization that it was just a thought

What is it that is noticing and seeing this thinking pattern?

It is brought into experience as a thought

just enjoying being one with life’s flow.

What is it that is one with life's flow? So at one end of this 'oneness' there is 'life's flow', and what is it at its other end? What is it that is one with it?

Being one with life's flow is just a metaphor. There is just being with what is. No ends or beginnings just the present.

And what is it that is enjoying this oneness?

nothing separate it is just a label for the sensation felt in the body

What does this experience of 'being one with life's flow' is happening to?

no one

Are there two things? Life's flow and something which has the ability to be one with it?

No

It is a challenge to use any descriptors to describe these experiences as they end up misleading. Anyhow, thanks for your help.

Take care,
Mike

[Luchana]

Hi Mike,

It is a challenge to use any descriptors to describe these experiences as they end up misleading.

Agree - yes, somethimes it's a challenge.

"The thought of a separate self is not gone, it still arises from time to time and looked for underlying conditioning that needs resolution."

Is there an expectation or desire that the thoughts of a separate self shouldn't appear?

Does it matter if it appears or not?

But the question is - Is there a self at all?

Is there a self regardless the presence or the absence of the thought about the self?

conditioning that needs resolution.

What does have this need?

What is it that needs a resolution to this conditioning?

What is it that wants to change the conditioning?



Take your time.

Much love,
Luchana

[ramziger]

Hi Luchana,

"The thought of a separate self is not gone, it still arises from time to time and looked for underlying conditioning that needs resolution."

Is there an expectation or desire that the thoughts of a separate self shouldn't appear?

No there isn’t an expectation or desire that these thoughts shouldn’t appear, it doesn’t matter if they do. It appears there is still a subtle desire/habit to bring forth intellectualized understandings/explanations into the responses! The engineering background may be the root cause - kidding 😉

Does it matter if it appears or not?

No not at all.

But the question is - Is there a self at all?

No.

Is there a self regardless the presence or the absence of the thought about the self?

No there isn’t.

conditioning that needs resolution.

What does have this need?

Oh I see now - conditioning is another label for past thought behaviors – in the direct experience there is nothing that needs this resolution!

What is it that needs a resolution to this conditioning?

Nothing!

What is it that wants to change the conditioning?

Nothing, it was just another thought!

Thanks again for your help Luchana! Another aha moment experienced.

Much love,
Mike

[Luchana]

Hi Mike,

Thank you for your responses. I am going to get other guides to have a look at the thread to ensure that I have covered everything and that my pointing has been clear. This may take a few days. Sometimes, not always, the other guides may have further questions which I will bring to you.

Much love,
Luchana

[Luchana]

Hi Mike,

the things are moving fast:-)

The other guides have no questions for you, so that means that you've crashed the Gateless Gate so to speak :-)
It was a great privilege and honour to walk with you this path.
Your willingness and commitment is what brought the final seeing.
Admirations.

Big thank you for this and a big, warm "Welcome home, Mike!"

Probably you've notice that your thread has been moved in archives area and your name turns to blue.
You should receive message - (check your private messages) from admin what follows next.
I will be waiting for you in the FB groups and also I will be happy if we stay in touch.

Much love and hope to see you soon :-)

Luchana

[ramziger]

Hi Luchana,

Thank you so much for all your help and guidance over the past few months! Great appreciation for the pointers, exercises, and patience you shared with me on this journey. I will look for the follow up message and will look for you in the FB group :)

With love and gratitude,
Mike