6 years sober spent seeking the truth

[DoctahL]

Raise your left arm.
Tell me... where is the one that's controlling that?
Did somebody decide to raise the arm or did a thought about it appear and it just happened?

Just a thought then the arm moved. You're right. The thought preceded the movement and it correlates but there's no proof of causation. The story that "I" caused that is a thought to fill in the blank. That's fucked up lol. So thoughts can't actually do anything.

[nemesis]

The thought preceded the movement and it correlates but there's no proof of causation. The story that "I" caused that is a thought to fill in the blank. That's fucked up lol. So thoughts can't actually do anything.

Yep, that's it... they're just appearing and that's all.

How about the other senses now, that you've seen what the mind does?
Is there anybody hearing/seeing/thinking/feeling/tasting/smelling? Or are these things just naturally happening?

[DoctahL]

How about the other senses now, that you've seen what the mind does?
Is there anybody hearing/seeing/thinking/feeling/tasting/smelling? Or are these things just naturally happening?

Nobody there DOING the sensing they are just naturally happening.

[nemesis]

Great, so what about the 'spiritual search'?

[DoctahL]

That term and idea got introduced when I joined 12 step recovery. Not that I'd never heard it before. I realized early on it was only a word and that signing up to replace old beliefs with new ones didn't really make sense. I was willing to do the steps because I was in such bad shape and didn't want to live that way anymore. It seems like something worked because I haven't had even the thought of wanting to drink appear since and life is completely changed for the better. What happened exactly, is hard to put a finger on. But I've been helplessly driven to find out beyond the proposed 12 step explanation. So I started reading Buddhism and Enlightened guys etc. and the one constant I heard was that we suffer because we don't know who we are and we aren't who we "think" we are. So my constant intent has been how to go about letting go of who I think I am to have an actual experience of clarity.

I'm getting bits of this clarity from speaking with you but still have yet to clearly "see".

[nemesis]

Okay, so what is there right now that makes this moment 'not clear'?
Is there really something as 'clear' and 'not clear'?
What is the difference between the two?

If right now it's not clear to you then you want it to be clear in the future, right?
Is there such a thing as 'future'?
Have you ever directly experienced this 'future'?

[DoctahL]

Okay, so what is there right now that makes this moment 'not clear'?
Is there really something as 'clear' and 'not clear'?
What is the difference between the two?

There's a lot of thinking happening. Anticipation of a change in perception. Some frustration and confusion. You said something in an earlier post about thinking "defending" this picture of self being questioned. There's resistance that can't be controlled. It's noisy. It's challenging to stay with direct experience and not get attached to thoughts and content.

If right now it's not clear to you then you want it to be clear in the future, right?
Is there such a thing as 'future'?
Have you ever directly experienced this 'future'?

No there is only now. that's all that is ever experienced. Everything else is imagination and memory.

[DoctahL]

I had to take time to sit and allow everything to quiet down. It helps. Just sat and tried to locate a center for all the sensations and thinking. All the senses and thinking are operating simultaneously but I couldn't locate a central receiver. Seems like having eyes open makes it harder. Visual input is kind of "loudest" if that makes sense.

[nemesis]

It's challenging to stay with direct experience and not get attached to thoughts and content. 

Yeah. And no. If thoughts appear then that's simply how this moment presents itself to be.
Can it ever not be now?

Thoughts now try to tell you that they are not part of the direct experience. They are. Everything is.
But does the content of thoughts matter?
What does a thought now about the other senses?
Anything? Or do they just appear and tell stories about how they connect to this or that?

No there is only now. that's all that is ever experienced. Everything else is imagination and memory.

What is the difference between imagination and memory?
Don't think about it, just look. Is there a difference?

not get attached to thoughts and content. 

How does this attachment work?
Who is there to be attached to ... well, to what?

[nemesis]

ps.:

I had to take time to sit and allow everything to quiet down. It helps. Just sat and tried to locate a center for all the sensations and thinking.

I often like to just sit and concentrate on one particular sense.
Hearing for example. Just taking in and appreciating every sound that is percieved. Then switch to smell or taste or touch.
Even thoughts... just look at how they appear and disappear... like clouds... Then I open my eyes and just see. Thoughts arise in the background but their content is of no importance.
That's the flow of life. It's beautiful. :)

[DoctahL]

But does the content of thoughts matter?
What does a thought now about the other senses?
Anything? Or do they just appear and tell stories about how they connect to this or that?

The content makes no difference. Just because they can be about other senses or anything.

What is the difference between imagination and memory?
Don't think about it, just look. Is there a difference?

they still appear right now.

It is an arbitrary distinction. Both just thoughts arising in the present moment. Same with 'clear' and 'not clear' from yesterday.

How does this attachment work?
Who is there to be attached to ... well, to what?

Getting 'attached' and 'carried away' by thoughts is a fantasy. "I" is a thought like any other thought and there's nothing to attach to and nowhere to go.

I think there's progress here. I'm wondering if it's intellectual. Maybe this takes a little time to settle into. Maybe I'm just expecting something more dramatic. I can sense a gap or like a crack opening. No me, no you. Wife was watching a show last night with celebrities getting interviewed with all these well-rehearsed personalities and opinions...no them either. The voice of the mind still speaks in first person but it's not as sticky. Last night while my wife was watching tv my frustration and noisiness from the earlier post was all but gone and forgotten. Here and gone.

[DoctahL]

Suffering is all in the mind.

[nemesis]

Suffering is all in the mind.

I know how you mean it, but I'll ask anyway.
What's the mind then?

they still appear right now.

It is an arbitrary distinction. Both just thoughts arising in the present moment. Same with 'clear' and 'not clear' from yesterday.

Yep.

Getting 'attached' and 'carried away' by thoughts is a fantasy. "I" is a thought like any other thought and there's nothing to attach to and nowhere to go.

Well said. :)

I think there's progress here. I'm wondering if it's intellectual.

So there's a thing called the intellect now?
There are no such things as 'theoretically' and 'practically'. It's one and the same.

Oftentimes the question is asked: 'so now I know all this but how can I actually experience it?'.
That's a funny trap right there because it makes it seem like there are two. Duality.

Are there?

Maybe I'm just expecting something more dramatic.

Yeah, the mind tends to freak out because it cannot grasp the simplicity of this.
right now! ...that's all there is ;)

I can sense a gap or like a crack opening. No me, no you. Wife was watching a show last night with celebrities getting interviewed with all these well-rehearsed personalities and opinions...no them either. The voice of the mind still speaks in first person but it's not as sticky. Last night while my wife was watching tv my frustration and noisiness from the earlier post was all but gone and forgotten. Here and gone.

Sometimes there is attachment and sometimes there isn't. That's just the way life flows.
But it becomes less and less every second. Slowly fading away... like the clouds.

[DoctahL]

Oftentimes the question is asked: 'so now I know all this but how can I actually experience it?'.

That is what I mean. There is still thinking saying there's and "in here" and "out there". Mind is just thoughts arising, intellect is no different.

[DoctahL]

Thank you so much for your help and patience by the way. What an amazing thing.