Serenity Now

[Bananafish]

Hi again, Alan. :)
Great observation!

How does it feel to see that?

[Arjuna1]

Hi Kento,

Great observation! How does it feel to see that?

Surprised and profound... since this was a unique first time observation.

Alan

[Bananafish]

Hello, Alan. :)

I see a change of the tone in what you write.
I'm excited to see it.

Do you still feel that there is an entity called self, concrete and separate from
everything else?

Warmly,

Bananafish

[Arjuna1]

Kento,

Do you still feel that there is an entity called self, concrete and separate from
everything else?

To report that there is a "feeling" of self and the separation of the self from everything else cannot be a truth! It is only thoughts that believe there is both self and separation. My foundational beliefs have been very shaken up by this realization!

The awareness of actual experiences has intensified. In other words, "I am more aware of being aware." I am experiencing color, sound, and physical sensation with greater intensity. Today, I was aware of a sound, and experienced it as though I was it. Then, immediately a thought experience labeled the sound as "a bird chirping".

There are now random thoughts occurring attempting to resist and refute the realization of "no self". When these thoughts appear, I also experience physical discomfort.

I would greatly appreciate us continuing this investigation.

Thank you,

Alan

[Bananafish]

Hello Alan. :)

I'm very glad to see that something is dawning on you.

In case you are crystal clear that you've seen through the illusion
of the separate "self," we could move on to the final set of
questions that are asked at the end of the dialogue.


If you have things you want to investigate further,
please let me know, so that we can have a look together.


Warm regards,

Bananafish

[Bananafish]

Hi again. :)

There are now random thoughts occurring attempting to resist and refute the realization of "no self". When these thoughts appear, I also experience physical discomfort.

Is this a current problem of yours?
If so, we can also have a look at this issue.

In short, the question is:


Can thoughts refute something?


Please tell me what kind of discomfort it is, as well.

[Arjuna1]

Hi Kento,

I'm very glad to see that something is dawning on you.

Yes, surely there is an experience of "something dawning".

In case you are crystal clear that you've seen through the illusion
of the separate "self," we could move on to the final set of
questions that are asked at the end of the dialogue.
If you have things you want to investigate further,
please let me know, so that we can have a look together.

Thoughts have been the foundation for my belief that I exist as a separate self. Now, I am experiencing conflicting thoughts of self vs. no-self. There is a thought there is a self. There is a thought that there is no-self. There is a thought that one of those thoughts is true and the other false? But which is which? There is a thought of doubt.
Finally, there are thoughts that, "I am all of these thoughts". Perhaps, if I had no thoughts, there would be no-self.
Can we explore this further?

Can thoughts refute something?

A thought can refute another thought, but a thought cannot eliminate another thought. Both thoughts, in fact, all thoughts seem to coexist, and appear randomly.

Please tell me what kind of discomfort it is, as well

.

Physical discomfort includes a sensation of heat, and strong tingling moving randomly through the body. I would label these experiences as excitement or mild anxiety.

Regards,

Alan

[Bananafish]

Hi again, Alan. :)
Seems lots of thoughts are popping out!


Ok, please investigate this:


If there is a thought "there is a self", is that "self" the self per se, or is
it more of a thought content?


Do the same investigation with other thoughts regarding self.


Can any thought, however creditable they may seem,
be that very thing it points to?


Now, what is this VERY THING that any thoughts are
pointing to (probably in a very awkward and mediocre way)?

Physical discomfort includes a sensation of heat, and strong tingling moving randomly through the body. I would label these experiences as excitement or mild anxiety.

Could you try saying hi to that sensation?
If possible, also tell it that it stay be there, as it is.
Then, stay with it for a while and see what happens.
You can listen to it to see if it has something to say.


Warm wishes,

Bananafish

[Arjuna1]

Kento,

If there is a thought "there is a self", is that "self" the self per se, or is
it more of a thought content?

The "self" that is being referred to in the thought "there is a separate self", is only a thought content. When that thought vanishes from awareness, there is no self.
A belief in a "self" is possible only if a thought arises which contains the message that self exists.

Can any thought, however creditable they may seem,
be that very thing it points to?

No. They cannot be the same! The pointer (aka, thought) must have an object that it is pointing towards (aka. self).

Now, what is this VERY THING that any thoughts are
pointing to (probably in a very awkward and mediocre way)?

This question is causing a lot of physical discomfort. I am searching for an answer, but my mind just goes blank. One thought seems to lead to another thought. I am not able to find any "thing" being pointed to. Perhaps there is no-thing to be pointed to.

Alan

[Bananafish]

Hi Alan. :)

The pointer (aka, thought) must have an object that it is pointing towards (aka. self).

Could it be clearly observed that, that was a thought pointing to another thought?

I am not able to find any "thing" being pointed to. Perhaps there is no-thing to be pointed to.

You still sound uncertain. What is causing this "perhaps" in the sentence?


Did you try the last part I wrote in the previous post?
If the sensation is too strong, please take a rest, and inquire after the rest.
Please be gentle when you inquire. :)


Warm regards,

Bananafish

[Arjuna1]

Hi Kento,

Could it be clearly observed that, that was a thought pointing to another thought?

Yes, it is clearly observed that one thought points to another and another etc.

You still sound uncertain. What is causing this "perhaps" in the sentence?

Concerning the question, what is this VERY THING that any thoughts are pointing to? Thought points to thought. I was confused by the term "VERY THING".

Just because I experience a thought that a separate self exists, does not prove that it is true.
Just because I experience a thought that a separate self does not exist, does not prove that it is true.
However, a thought only seems to become a reality when it is "believed"... but a belief is just another thought.

Did you try the last part I wrote in the previous post?
If the sensation is too strong, please take a rest, and inquire after the rest.
Please be gentle when you inquire. :)

I said hello to the sensation, and just let it be. The sensations calmed down and disappeared.

I appreciate your continuing guidance. I want this experience to be crystal clear with respect to the illusion of a separate self. Prior to our discussions, I have never enquired so deeply and systematically.

Regards,

Alan

[Arjuna1]

Kento,

I just had this observation and want to share it with you.

Concerning direct experience:

a color is the experience of color
a sound is an experience of sound
a sensation is an experience of sensation
a thought is an experience of thought.

While there is awareness of these direct experiences, none of these provide any evidence of there being a "self".

Based on direct experience, I must refute the existence of a self!!!

Alan

[Bananafish]

Great seeing Alan!

Based on direct experience, I must refute the existence of a self!!!

And does it matter whether you refute it or not? :)


Have you inquired into THIS VERY THING?

Please don't be confined by the word THING, as it might not be
what a thing is usually considered to be.

The point is that thought is an attempt to grasp it, resulting in
failure.


Another question that points to the same place is:
What is typing a reply?

[Bananafish]

If it seems impossible to be described in words,
still try the best; what would be one most precise word to
describe THIS VERY THING? Please observe and answer.
Always, observe first.

[Arjuna1]

Kento,

And does it matter whether you refute it or not? :)

Haha! Yeah, there's nothing to refute...and no one to do the refuting!

Have you inquired into THIS VERY THING?

Great question!!! This might be a major breakthrough question as I am unable to answer with certainty. I am observing for a direct experience regarding this question, but I'm stuck. The answer must be experienced, no intellectualizing or hypothesizing. I continue to ask the question and observe.

Another question that points to the same place is:
What is typing a reply?

Another paradoxical clue. Hmmmm... still stuck. Not giving up, but it's driving me crazy :)

Alan