Looking to Inquire

[EStraws123]

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
That the sense of self is the same thing as the sense of movement when watching a film - in reality nothing is moving but it's a very convincing illusion. I understand the idea of seeing there is no real, inherent self as shifting identification from this ego, the source of all pain, into what is a hopefully a kind of freedom.

What are you looking for at LU?
I am looking for a dialogue/guidance to be able to more stably experience the state of not-self and to be able to access it without effort, and for the support that can come from being in a community of like-minded people. I am not looking for any kind of extra-worldly experience, but rather one which I hope to be the most normal of all.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
I would like to provide honest answers to the questions presented to me and would hope to receive personal assistance/instructions to aid me in realizing not-self. I also understand this may be challenging and may require time, and I am committed to that.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
I have over a decade of experience meditating in a wide array of traditions - Tibetan, Zen, Theravada, as well as having practiced self-inquiry as taught by Ramana Maharshi and other advaita vedanta teachers. I have had a few very clear experiences of what I would call the collapse of subject/object duality but these have been brief, unstable, and usually once I have such an experience it feels impossible for it to happen again.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self?
9

[Bella]

Hi EStraws123,

My name is Bella, and I’m happy to assist in exploring no-self with you.

You and I will simply have a conversation, but this process is essentially an extension of your own inquiry. It is 'guided' so that specific areas may be examined.

I am not a teacher. This is YOUR inquiry. I will not be giving you new ideas and beliefs; only assisting you in examining and questioning the ones that you already have.

Before we begin, here are links to information I would like you to read please. 
Disclaimer:-
http://liberationunleashed.com/disclaimer-2/

Terms & Conditions:
https://www.liberationunleashed.com/register/terms/

“Liberation Unleashed is not …” in the FAQ’s of LU. 
http://liberationunleashed.com/about/faq/#faq-1041 

A few ground rules:
1. Post at least once a day, if you cannot post, or need more time, please let me know.
2. Be 100% honest in your answers and inquiry.
3. This exploration is based on Actual (or Direct) Experience (AE or DE) - smell, taste, sound, sensation, color and thoughts - only. Long-winded analytical and philosophical answers are best avoided and may even hinder progress. This is not a self-improvement process. There is no ‘self’ to improve.
4. Put aside all other teachings, philosophies and such for the remainder of this investigation. Really put all your effort and attention in to seeing this reality, as it is. If you have a daily and essential meditation practice, it is fine to continue that.
5. Understand that I will be guiding you, rather than teaching you, and the more you put into this process the more you will get out of it.

A few technical support:

- You can reply to this thread by pushing the 'Post Reply" button at the left bottom of this page.
- You can learn to use the quote function, instructions are located in the link below this line:

viewtopic.php?f=4&t=660

Technology is not perfect and sometimes there is a glitch which can wipe out your responses. It is advisable that you copy and paste questions asked into Word, answer them there and then copy and paste them to your thread. Always save a copy of what you have done, it will save time in the long run.


If you are happy to agree to the above and have me your guide, we can start the process. 

To begin with, so that we both become aware of what your expectations are about this exploration (for example, what life will look and feel like and what you want/hope will change or not change). Could you please answer the following questions:

How will Life change?
How will you change?
What will be different?
What is missing?

Throughout this exploration I would like you to answer ALL questions that I have written in blue text. Please answer questions INDIVIDUALLY, remembering to use the Quote function to highlight the question being answered.

Bella

[EStraws123]

Hi Bella,

Thanks so much for your response. I've read all the links you provided and everything sounds fine, and I would love to have you as my guide.

Here are the answers to your first questions:

How will Life change?

Having got some glimpses of not-self, I feel like this is something I need to do, like it’s my next step. Once I’ve seen it I can’t go back so I might as well finish.

How will you change?

There is a subtle tension I feel throughout the day, it is hard to explain but it leaves me exhausted. I feel like this will bring a sense of peace, of feeling like I am fine as I am and don’t need to spend energy going anywhere or getting anything.

What will be different?

As I said for the previous question - more calm coming from the feeling that nothing has to be added or taken away in order for me to feel “okay”. Less fear that “I” will be do the wrong thing or be judged in so many situations.

What is missing?

Patience from my part. The ability to feel okay and stable and to stay in the moment. Maybe better said - what’s missing is the experience of feeling safe as I am without having to construct a self that needs to do things or get things.

Thank you!

[Bella]

Hi …,

Do you have a name I can call you by?

Thank you for your responses. Your responses are important, because every expectation is in a way of seeing what is here, right now. Every expectation is a ‘hindrance’ in realizing what IS. Expectations are about the future. But seeing what IS cannot be ‘found’ in the future. 

I go through all the expectations. While you read them, please pay attention to what arises ‘in the body’. Is there any resistance to any of it?

I feel like this will bring a sense of peace, of feeling like I am fine as I am and don’t need to spend energy going anywhere or getting anything.

It is possible you will get to experience these. Or not. It is different for everybody how they feel after going through the gate.
It is good to remember this is not a self-enhancement programme. Seeing that the self is a construct, not a reality, doesn’t provide anything to better that non-existent self.

Less fear that “I” will be do the wrong thing or be judged in so many situations.

Fear as such will be investigated during the inquiry. The effects of it are not predictable. I mean here that fear as such probably won’t drop away, but it’s nature will be clear. You will get to see there is no I that does wrong. But wrong doing will still happen. And being judged (by others) will also still happen. You will get to understand that there is no-one to receive this judgement. But the habits you now have around this, won’t drop all by themselves.

The ability to feel okay and stable and to stay in the moment. Maybe better said - what’s missing is the experience of feeling safe as I am without having to construct a self that needs to do things or get things.

This inquiry is not about obtaining any ability. Feeling save is not what comes available after seeing there is no self. Rather there is no self to feel save, or, the need to feel save may drop.
Staying in the moment is also an ‘ability’. It is a figure of speaking. After the believe in a separate self has dropped, you will probably view this differently than you do now.
This inquiry will reveal how we do construct this so called self. Otherwise, things will still be got and done as they always have.


How to get about in this inquiry? What is looking into direct, or actual experience (DE/AE)?
DE/AE is what you can sense in the NOW. Sensing with your sense organs. Images, sounds, smells, tastes and touch/sensation. And also thought as fact of thoughts happening, not getting caught up in their content. Looking into DE means that you notice the sense experience before thought kicks in.
In that way you can observe what is there BEFORE interpretation happens. And then you can also observe how interpretation happens, the labelling and storytelling, the thoughts ABOUT the raw experience. 

The key to this exploration is the careful LOOKING. Why? Because it’s the act of actually LOOKING and not finding an “I” that brings about the realisation of there being no separate self and that there has never been a separate self.
Another key component of this exploration is being able to tell the difference between your direct sense experience and the interpretation by thought of it.

Here's an exercise that will help you to see what we mean exactly by direct experience. I would like you to try as many times throughout the day as you can. Label daily activities simply colour/image, sound, smell, taste, sensation, thought.

So for example, when having breakfast, become aware of:

Seeing a cup, simply = visual sight
Smelling coffee, simply = smell 
Feeling the warmth of the coffee cup, simply = sensation 
Tasting the coffee, simply = taste
Hearing the spoon stirring the coffee, simply = sound
Thought about drinking the coffee, simply = thought 

Just break down daily activities into these categories (which are all actual/direct experience) and let me how you go.

Bella

[EStraws123]

Hi Bella, sure, you can call me Eric.

Thank you for your reply and I'll go through things below after quotes.

Is there any resistance to any of it?

There was some resistance - I'll list each part separately and explain.

It is possible you will get to experience these. Or not...

For this, there is a slight feeling of wanting to experience these things, but that seems kind of normal and mostly I know, at least intellectually, that this is not about looking for a different state or way of being, so I don't anticipate this being a sticking point.

Fear as such will be investigated during the inquiry...

This is almost the same as the above. I don't feel like it's even reasonable to expect anything to make fear go away, and cohabitating with it is a wonderful idea. I do admit however to feeling some resistance because it's hard to imagine what that would look like when applied to some of my bigger fears. Like... direct experiencing might make me able to coexist with these fears but it could require me to change in some way that scares me, in which I might lose myself.

This inquiry is not about obtaining any ability...

This caused the most resistance. What you're saying makes sense on a thought level. Emotionally though I feel the want to replace one thing (current self-view?) with something else ("awakened" self?) and I know this is not going to happen so I try to stop that and then I get caught feeling frustrated and like I can't do it, which makes me more frustrated, because it should be easy and... well this can go on forever.

Just break down daily activities into these categories (which are all actual/direct experience) and let me how you go.

I did this exercise throughout the day. I can note the experience of these categories but I also feel like there should be something else to it. I'm making a me that is trying to get into the experience before my analytical mind does, and I know that is paradoxical, there can be no me before the me yet I still try. I'm not letting it be what it is. I feel like it SHOULD be easy and I SHOULD be getting it and it's not coming out right, so first there is the feeling to want to push it harder, and then I start to feel like I'm doing it wrong and I don't want to do it. I think one of my biggest points of resistance might be against doing things "wrong." To be clear, I am still doing it though.

Thank you

[Bella]

Hi Eric,

Thank you for you elaborate thoughts about your resistances and fears. Those need to be taken seriously, because they can prevent you from looking. But actually, fear is nothing more than a protective mechanism, and it does its job well. There is a belief, a story somewhere about pain or negative consequences to seeing the illusion of the self. And the fear tries to protect you from these supposed negative consequences.

… it could require me to change in some way that scares me, in which I might lose myself.

It is not possible to lose yourself. Our objective is to see that the idea of an independent or seperate self is an illusion. It is the illusion that will be lost.

This caused the most resistance. … Emotionally though I feel the want to replace one thing (current self-view?) with something else ("awakened" self?)

When the illusion is seen through, there will be nothing to take its place. All the suffering caused by the belief in the illusion, can than gradually drop away.

I think one of my biggest points of resistance might be against doing things "wrong".

That is why I am here. To help you get it right.

So let’s find out what this story is about and see if they are real threats or not. What I’d like you to do is to investigate this fear. Examine it closely. Feel it. Don’t try to fix it or solve it, just sit with it.
Ask the fear as if it were a some kind of entity:
What do you want to protect me from?
What is the ‘negative’ story, what would happen if the illusion of the self is seen through?
Observe what visual thoughts and stories come up ‘justifying’ its right to fear.
If you ignore the stories (thoughts) and visual thoughts what is BEHIND the fear?

Let me know what you find.

About how to get about in this inquiry:

I can note the experience of these categories but I also feel like there should be something else to it.

Don't worry about the "something else". In this inquiry it is important to just stay with this first experience. It is even important there isn't anything else to it. In the sensation, just the sensation.
Anyway: feel free to ask me all that is unclear to you.

Bella

[EStraws123]

Hi Bella,

Thank you for your attentive response. I did the investigation of the fear of losing myself as you instructed. Answers below.

What do you want to protect me from?

It wants to protect me from getting hurt and suffering. To protect me from dealing with overwhelming loss, from being vulnerable. If I lose this "me" that I've invested my life in and that I feel I have to keep investing in in the future, then what does that leave?

What is the ‘negative’ story, what would happen if the illusion of the self is seen through?

I won't have anything to validate me anymore. I lose that idea that someday "I" can be fully happy, fully loved, fully enjoying that experience. There is also a sense that who I am now is damaged, lesser, failed, and I feel I have to fix all of that, almost as if this were my life purpose.

Observe what visual thoughts and stories come up ‘justifying’ its right to fear.

There is a narrative that I have failed to be what I should be and that the only way to feel like I'm a valid person is to not be a failure in the eyes of some "thing" that exists outside of me. This thing is not a god or anything like that, but it does feel like it's being imposed on me from outside, a strong Should.

If you ignore the stories (thoughts) and visual thoughts what is BEHIND the fear?

I am aware of this fear with the same untouched awareness that is always present, but I can see myself choosing to not let go of the fear because I want to get that ego satisfaction, to feel like I've become the person I always felt like I was unable to become. I am very attached to that and averse to the idea of letting it go. But as I type this I know that I'm knowing it, that no matter what I'll be knowing it, an intuition that if I stay knowing then the fear is no different than anything else, but I don't want to let go into that... because I'm afraid.

It is even important there isn't anything else to it. In the sensation, just the sensation.
Anyway: feel free to ask me all that is unclear to you.

Do you have any tips for dealing with the frustration? Is it a matter of attempting this again and again and eventually the desire to make a self to interject will fade away? I guess it seems hard to orient myself in this and that contributes to frustration more.

-Eric

[Bella]

Hi Eric,

It wants to protect me from getting hurt and suffering.

Exactly. That is fear's job. Fear wants to protect our body so we can survive/live. And it has been very beneficial in the survival of our ancestors when they used to be pray.
But fear has made one mistake. It wants to protect also something unreal, that is our ego, the self we believe to be real, but it isn’t. Because of this mistake, all that suffering follows. The fear creates a narrative that than is believed in. But is it true? How can we know? We can't. Can you see this?

I lose that idea …

Seeing through self illusion means that you get to see for yourself that there is no seperate self. What you have believed in all along proves to be an illusion. There never was an I in the first place. You get to see the narrative is only that, a narrative, not the truth.
You can’t lose what you don’t have.

Do you have any tips for dealing with the frustration?

It seems to me that your frustration is around having the fear. If I understand you correctly, you would like not to have the fear, but there is also a part of you that does want "that ego satisfaction", and the frustration arises out of this duality. Am I correct?

B:

if you ignore the stories (thoughts) and visual thoughts what is BEHIND the fear?

E: … but I don't want to let go into that... because I'm afraid

You haven’t answered this question. Please try it again.

I hope this little inquiry has helped you to see that fear is not what is seems. That it is a natural response that fear can arise and that it is the attached narrative that is misleading you. The I doesn't need protection, because it is non-existent. What doesn't exist, can't be harmed.

So fear will continue to sometimes come up. Is fear clear now? Can you let it do its proper job and not believe the narrative? Do you feel ready now to go into the inquiry in no-self?

Bella

[EStraws123]

Hi Bella,

Can you see this?

Yes, I can easily see that we can't know whether this narrative is true or not.

Am I correct?

Yes, that is correct. And I suppose there's another kind of frustration of a more practical nature - it comes because I see myself making an ego when I "should not be" and I can't stop it.

Please try it again.

There is something, there is being, and it cannot be categorized in any way - neither good nor bad, painful nor pleasant, right nor wrong, not even past or future, moving or still, and not even something or nothing, being or not being.

I see that what does not exist cannot be harmed and that fear will come up, the fear no longer feels like such a big obstacle to doing this inquiry.

Do you feel ready now to go into the inquiry in no-self?

Yes, I feel ready.

Thank you,
Eric

[Bella]

Hi Eric

it comes because I see myself making an ego when I "should not be" and I can't stop it.

You don’t have to worry about this. This “making an ego” and “can’t stop it”, are habitual patterns. During the inquiry you will probably see more of your own patterns. Don’t let them distract you from the inquiry. During the inquiry the focus is on what the senses are telling us. Not judgement or comment about what they present.

Yes, I feel ready.

Good :) let’s start.

Here is an exercise. With each one please ignore all thoughts that come up. Stay as close as you can with the experience.

Take a cup tea or coffee from the kitchen and put it in front of you on the table. What do you see?
Take the cup in your hands. Close your eyes. What do you feel?
With eyes stil closed: what do you smell?
Take a sip. What do you taste?
Tell me only your direct experience, not the thoughts about the experience. I.e. I see color and shape labelled ‘cup’; not: a cup. I feel warmth; not: I feel the cup in my hands.

Is there really a ‘cup’ here, or only colour, shape and a thought ABOUT ‘cup’? Can ‘cup’ be found in direct experience?
While these thoughts are known, what they talk ABOUT can't be found in direct experience. Can you see this?

Bella

[EStraws123]

Hi Bella,

What do you see?

Different cream and brown colors, a curve, some object that has height and is occupying space. To describe it any other way (and maybe even in that way) would be impossible without thought.

What do you feel?

I feel sensations on my hands - warmth, heaviness, resistance.

what do you smell?

Again sensations though here I notice some sense different parts of the scent being pleasant or unpleasant, and this occurs before thought would come in.

What do you taste?

A mixture of sensations - there is a spaciousness in the water the coffee, then what I would call bitterness, but before I even put that label of bitterness there are so many things going on there It's so complex, and it's like the label "bitter" erases the complexity. All labels reduce experience and then I believe that the label is what I experienced.

Is there really a ‘cup’ here, or only colour, shape and a thought ABOUT ‘cup’? Can ‘cup’ be found in direct experience?

My mind takes all of this experience and forms it into a cup, but that happens inside of me not outside. So there is no cup here in direct experience.

Can you see this?

Yes. I never realized that in order for the mind to categorize a thing, it has to reduce it to a label, make it something else. The "cup" exists only in my mind and has very little relation to the things I experienced.

Eric

[Bella]

Hi Eric,

You’re getting the hang of it just fine.

All labels reduce experience and then I believe that the label is what I experienced.

Well spotted!

Please do this exercise and tell me how it went. It is from this blog:
http://markedeternal.blogspot.com/2012/ ... s.html?m=1
First write what you are experiencing right now using words I and me. Get right to the point, no past or future fantasy, just plain description of here now.  

Like this- 
I am laying in bed. I am hearing the rain, I am typing these words..

Do it for 10 minutes. Watch the body, are there any sensations of tightening or relaxing? 

Then for next 10 minutes write without words I and me. Just describe the experience as it is happening using verbs: 
Waiting for next thought, typing, breathing, blinking, hearing the rain.

Again watch what is happening in the body.  

Now compare the two ways to label experience- is one truer than the other? If so, which one? What is here without labels? Do labels affect the experience or just describe it?

Is there a me behind the word “me”?

Bella

[EStraws123]

Hi Bella,

Replies below.

tell me how it went.

During the first part I did feel a kind of restless tension in my body. I felt impatient doing the exercise. I also felt a kind of mental tension feeling like I was making a self that was doing this.

In the second part I felt less restlessness, and I think less anxiety, though I did feel some. I did not have the mental tension of not having a self, but then I felt there was the same feeling of that fear of what happens if I lose myself, so there was a kind of very subtle averse anxiety in my body.

is one truer than the other? If so, which one?

The second one felt more true because in the first one, having to phrase everything as "I am" felt like an unnecessary step to describing the experience.

What is here without labels? Do labels affect the experience or just describe it?

Without labels there is just sensing, input, it flows more naturally. The labels seem to not only affect experience, but even to create it. It is not necessary to use a "self" when discussing things and from what I saw yesterday, it seems like that label probably obscures what's going on.

Is there a me behind the word “me”?

There is the experience of the word me being said, and that is not a me.

Eric

[Bella]

Hi Eric,

The purpose of the excercise was to give you the opportunity to experience first hand the difference between calling on an I or not calling on an I.
You did well.

felt like an unnecessary step to describing the experience.

Exactly

There is the experience of the word me being said, and that is not a me.

Spot on.

Let’s have a deeper look on thoughts. Sit for about 15 minutes and investigate these questions:

Where do thoughts come from?
Where are they going?
Can ‘you’ stop a thought in the middle?
Can ‘you’ predict what will be the next thought?
Can 'you' choose not to have painful or negative thoughts?

Can an 'I' be found that generates thoughts?
“I think” - What is 'I'? What is the one that thinks?
What is the thinker of thoughts?
Does the thinker of the thought appear in experience? Can it be found?
Or could it be that the 'I' that thinks is also just a thought?
Do you think thoughts or you are just ‘being thought’?
Is it possible to prevent a thought from appearing? Including the thought 'I'?

Please go through these questions and answer and quote ALL of them one-by-one. Don’t miss any. Try to answer them only from direct experience, and leave aside all intellectual interpretation or understanding. Please, DON’T THINK about the answers, rather LOOK at what is before thoughts. Take your time.

Bella

[EStraws123]

Hi Bella,

Where do thoughts come from?

My attention will go to a place - the present, past, future, etc. and it's like the thoughts are already there.

Where are they going?

They don't go anywhere. It's like they're just gone (do they even exist?) or another thought replaces them.

Can ‘you’ stop a thought in the middle?

Most thoughts appear fully formed and the idea of them having a middle doesn't make sense. If I am consciously paying attention to the thought process though then yes I can stop thinking the thought to myself. At least it seems that way though I feel this might be a contrivance.

Can ‘you’ predict what will be the next thought?

Not at all. Asking this made me feel like the idea of something doing the thinking was absurd.

Can 'you' choose not to have painful or negative thoughts?

In this context, no. When they're in the mind it's like they're already just happening.

Can an 'I' be found that generates thoughts?

There is a feeling that they have to come from somewhere, but looking for this "somewhere" either leads to nothing or to more mental activity that I witness.

“I think” - What is 'I'? What is the one that thinks?

There is no one that thinks, there are thoughts thinking they are the one that thinks.

What is the thinker of thoughts?

I have no idea, I can't find it. Feel like it doesn't exist.

Does the thinker of the thought appear in experience? Can it be found?

No, and no, only thoughts thinking they are the thinker.

Or could it be that the 'I' that thinks is also just a thought?

Definitely this.

Do you think thoughts or you are just ‘being thought’?

As far as thoughts about an "I" are concerned, they are being thought. I am hesitant to say there is a me/I at all right now.

Is it possible to prevent a thought from appearing? Including the thought 'I'?

When I look at where a thought came from it feels like there are no thoughts. But to intentionally stop them... I'm not sure, this is not something I can do now, and the thought "I" seems to come out of habit.

Thank you,
Eric