Me vs. Reality

[mesmer]

Love surround you Floris. Something is breaking through tonight There is laughing at the situation. A release of this profound, painful love story with this non existent self. At least for this moment.
What will tomorrow bring? Don’t know. Will this deepen? Right now, even this moment of seeing and relief, even it is fleeting... is worth everything.

[mesmer]

Will respond to your latest guidance.

Love M.

[Florisness]

Love surround you Floris.

Thank you for the laugh

Good to see something released. Did the suffering do it or your looking? :-)

love,
F

[mesmer]

What Is being experienced is the suffering of a loved one. Feeling too much darkness for too long.

I understand

Thank you Floris.

So what are you resisting here exactly? Are you trying to get away from the feelings? What if you would allow all the feelings to come? A good question I've found useful at times was a question/exercise from David R. Hawkins which is to bring your awareness to your feelings and ask 'can I stop resisting these sensations?' and to ignore the thoughts. You might find that not resisting the feelings or sensations will often be much less of a big deal then you thought

So helpful. Suffering is here. It is less personal.

Are you hoping that an insight that there is no self will alleviate all the things you don't want to feel? I'm thinking that you already might be more clear on this then you think you are, but just have an expectation that an insight should come that will change things all of a sudden? It's often not like that. Are you trying to believe there is no self? If so, you don't need such a belief. You've been increasingly seeing through a bunch of assumptions that could each be considered to be a part of the self.

The laughter last night arose from the realization that truth of no self was becoming unavoidable. Re-reading all of your guidance. Reading a gatecrash by Elena and her relentless pointing.

For eg.
So when you are in your daily life and you feel like self exists, what’s changed? Has self miraculously become existent? No. You’re just being too lazy to see what it actually is. So look, don’t make me start cursing, OK?”

It’s the acceptance that there is no escaping the simple truth. Once it is even glimpsed that there is “no self” then there is no turning back from this truth. There may be a ton of resistance and argument and bullshit that still comes up, but the hole is in the dyke and in spite of my finger in the hole, the dyke is starting to crumble.

....forgive the dutch analogy. ; )

If you see someone and they have never even questioned their belief in being a person, they just always assumed being one, being a body or being something in the body just like almost everybody. What would you say to him/her (assuming he's asking you about it and you feel like sharing) about it?

Would suggest they start by examining their beliefs of what self is made of. Where can this self be found in reality? Is it possible that this self is just made up of habitual identification with thoughts, feelings, senses? Where is this separate self located and how can this separate entity exist independently or outside of experience?

Moving the perception outside the “body” ...for the first time, there is a true sense of no “me” there. So the sense of “me” seems to have location within the body... but awareness placed a short distance away completely eliminates the sense of “me”...

Good one. That exercise wasn't written out completely yet, I wanted originally to add to it to then having established a spot that is not me, to then move your awareness around 'in' your experience and then to find that nowhere you would say there is a person, because there isn't. So do you agree that you can find a place in space/experience ("outside the body") where there is only what we could label awareness/space/life, just as any other place in experience, but that you can move your attention/awareness to a place ("inside the body") that feels different then the other spot ("outside the body") which is what you just labeled 'sense of me'? If someone didn't explore this he might call this place in experience -where you said was a 'sense of me'-: me, person, self. But maybe you would tell him that a more accurate description would be not person, self, or me, but 'sense of me', because that is all there is to it?

That’s it... yes... there is “a sense of me” , in contrast to the unquestioned belief in a “me”.

The place away from the body that is just awareness / space / life... that has absolutely no “sense of me”...to move into that as sustained experience.

Is there that level of experience of “no self” with zero “sense of self” Floris?



Love, M.

[mesmer]

Suffering happening everywhere in these strange times. Hoping you and loved ones are in a safe and healthy place right now Floris. Sending love and deepest thanks for all of this pure goodness, kindness, light and guidance.

[Florisness]

So helpful. Suffering is here. It is less personal.

Great!

The laughter last night arose from the realization that truth of no self was becoming unavoidable. Re-reading all of your guidance. Reading a gatecrash by Elena and her relentless pointing.

Ah nice, I once had a similar realization that I was bound to complete this path. I probably walked around afterwards with a ridiculously big smile on my face for some time.

It’s the acceptance that there is no escaping the simple truth. Once it is even glimpsed that there is “no self” then there is no turning back from this truth. There may be a ton of resistance and argument and bullshit that still comes up, but the hole is in the dyke and in spite of my finger in the hole, the dyke is starting to crumble.

Let's hope you didn't forget your swimming lessons;-)

Would suggest they start by examining their beliefs of what self is made of. Where can this self be found in reality? Is it possible that this self is just made up of habitual identification with thoughts, feelings, senses? Where is this separate self located and how can this separate entity exist independently or outside of experience?

Nice!

That’s it... yes... there is “a sense of me” , in contrast to the unquestioned belief in a “me”.

yep, that's it.

The place away from the body that is just awareness / space / life... that has absolutely no “sense of me”...to move into that as sustained experience.
Is there that level of experience of “no self” with zero “sense of self” Floris?

Oh yes, probably so and probably even much more unpersonal than your current experience of just awareness/life. Although an utter annihilation of even the least bit of 'personal' from your consciousness is maybe not be very handy if you still try to live on earth. Seems to me that the variety of experiences you can have are absolutely infinite.

Suffering happening everywhere in these strange times. Hoping you and loved ones are in a safe and healthy place right now Floris. Sending love and deepest thanks for all of this pure goodness, kindness, light and guidance.

Thank you mesmer for your nice messages. Yes, I'm well and I wish you all the best as well.

Often at the end of the conversation confirmation questions are asked, to see if you're still having remnants of the belief in being a seperate self or are clear. Shall I ask theses questions?

Love,

[mesmer]

So it is a process of letting go of many pre-conceived notions of what seeing “no self” is.

The state of no self is imagined as one where there is an abiding sense of inner peace with no resistance to what is and while suffering may arise, it wouldn’t be seen as personal or felt as all consuming.

Currently the truth of “no self” has been seen... and for a period of time, felt as a shift in perception, where there is a greater sense of calm, and the ongoing suffering felt as less personal.

The “sense of self” however has not completely fallen away, and tends to assert itself in times where there is resistance to what is.

The seeing of “no self” and the recent experience of a shift, may require some deepening. But feel there is no turning back on this truth... and believe the structure of self can’t hold with continued seeing. There is a certain doubt that this may somehow be wishful thinking or unnecessary expectation of some great relief that will arrive with crumbling of self.

Often at the end of the conversation confirmation questions are asked, to see if you're still having remnants of the belief in being a seperate self or are clear. Shall I ask theses questions?

Your call. I will answer with honesty.

[mesmer]

In a nutshell... with the knowing that there is no me.... there is still suffering, there is still a “sense of me”. Perhaps this is just attaching self identity to any feeling that arises that is deemed uncomfortable.

[mesmer]

Are you hoping that an insight that there is no self will alleviate all the things you don't want to feel? I'm thinking that you already might be more clear on this then you think you are, but just have an expectation that an insight should come that will change things all of a sudden? It's often not like that. Are you trying to believe there is no self? If so, you don't need such a belief. You've been increasingly seeing through a bunch of assumptions that could each be considered to be a part of the self.

This is an accurate summation!

[mesmer]

Are you trying to believe there is no self? If so, you don't need such a belief.

Are you talking about trying to maintain a belief as opposed to having a knowing? Not clear on this.

[Florisness]

Hi mesmer,

So it is a process of letting go of many pre-conceived notions of what seeing “no self” is.

The state of no self is imagined as one where there is an abiding sense of inner peace with no resistance to what is and while suffering may arise, it wouldn’t be seen as personal or felt as all consuming.

Yes letting go of notions about how anything should be is generally a good idea. There is much more conditioning and pains to be undone then just believing there is a person, and also the insight that there is no person can penetrate deeper into all of your being than what usually happens initially when someone 'sees' at liberation unleashed. This is all fine.

Currently the truth of “no self” has been seen... and for a period of time, felt as a shift in perception, where there is a greater sense of calm, and the ongoing suffering felt as less personal.

The “sense of self” however has not completely fallen away, and tends to assert itself in times where there is resistance to what is.

The seeing of “no self” and the recent experience of a shift, may require some deepening. But feel there is no turning back on this truth... and believe the structure of self can’t hold with continued seeing. There is a certain doubt that this may somehow be wishful thinking or unnecessary expectation of some great relief that will arrive with crumbling of self.

Your shift in perception is a clear indicator that you've released some beliefs, which is great. Some people after completing LU enter a FB group where they go into exploring -you could say- deeper layers, like looking into reactivity, subject and object and time and space and such. I would suggest you go with whatever attracts you and what you feel like you want to do, that's how I'm doing life lately anyway. If however you still feel doubts regarding what all we discussed you could bring it up and perhaps I can help a little further if you like.

Your call. I will answer with honesty.

Alright, I'll just give them to you, just write your thoughts down about these questions

In a nutshell... with the knowing that there is no me.... there is still suffering, there is still a “sense of me”. Perhaps this is just attaching self identity to any feeling that arises that is deemed uncomfortable.

Quite a bunch of guides often start talking in the conversation about expectations. I suppose I can see the wisdom in that one now:-)
Just to put what you say in it's right perspective, there is a buddhist 10 fetter model, where seeing through the self is fetter 1 (which is where our talk has been about), reactivity is fetter 4 &5, object-subject is fetter 6, time and space 7, where the sense of me drops quite significantly is fetter 8. Then there is also fetter 9 and 10.
I understand you would have liked all suffering to stop, however that will require a little more work ( sorry!;-) ). But it can be an exciting journey.

Are you talking about trying to maintain a belief as opposed to having a knowing? Not clear on this.

Some people try to arrive at the conclusion that there is no person, no self, no one doing anything, etc. However you don't need to reach any conclusion, but just to look at your experience to see what is actually going on here.

Okay, question time:
1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

5) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work? What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.

6) Anything to add?

love

[mesmer]

Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

No. This is now seen as an impossibility. There never was a self... but it was believed in!

Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

The illusion of self is created and fueled by the persistent notion (unquestioned belief in a thought) that a separate “me” exists in reality, This “me” is believed to operate independently from experience and believed to be an owner of body and mind, a doer of thought and experience, and a controller of a separate individual life.

The thought constructed sense of self, creates a condition where belief of thoughts and thinking, and thought labels is seen as more representative of the truth than experiential reality.

What used to be called the self is now recognized as an identification with body, thoughts, feelings, senses and emotions to create the illusion of self... or a sense of self. There is no owner of body/mind, there is a body, there is a mind. There is no doer of sight, smell, hearing, taste, touch, thought... there is just seeing, smelling, hearing, tasting,

thinking.
There is no entity having a life... there is just “lifeing”.

How does it feel to see this?

Freeing. The belief in and therefore the need for protection of this illusory self surfaces as every manner of mental/physical/experiential distress.

What is the difference from before you started this dialogue?

There is an understanding that all is experience. That nothing is operating separately or can exist separately from experience. There is no doer of experience here. There is no ownership of experience. Events that would have overwhelmed the “me” are now met with a greater acceptance, and for the most part there is some background of peace. There is still an ongoing “sense of me” being experienced which differs from the unquestioned hardcore belief in a separate self.

Please report from the past few days.

Suffering is experienced... sadness is experienced, emotions / thoughts that are labelled as unpleasant are being experienced, but there is less resistance because there is no me... only the residue of a lifetime of conditioned belief, that is recognized as a “sense of me”.

When resistance to a situation arises... the “sense of me” asserts itself with greater strength.

What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

There was a sudden clear seeing that in spite of continued arguments, justifications, intellectual resistance that the truth of no self , once seen, can not be unseen. The relief of this was palpable in the moment and lead to some laughter / relief.

Has this feeling been sustained? Not as intensely as in that moment... and the default “sense of me” asserts itself but is being seen through. Although the “ i” may keep hitting it’s head against walls trying to deny this... there will come a point where the head pounding will have to stop.

Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control.

This is still requiring deeper looking for an answer. Questions arise...If there is no “me” or “seperate self” how can an ability to have preference, make decisions, exercise free will, make choices and exercise control operate or exist?

The illusory “self” believes it is in control and resists the notion that there is no controller in place. It is seen that this “sense of self” becomes stronger when this resistance is in play.

With the seeing that there is no self , what remains is reaction to life situation... that is then labelled preference, decision, free will, choice, control? ...Is this true?

Trying to look with honesty...

There can be no separate controller in life. There is hearing but no doer of hearing... this is true. But can it be said, there is controlling but no controller? Is controlling just a thought as opposed to a real thing? How is controlling different from hearing?

Continuing to work through this and haven’t fully arrived at some absolute understanding.

You asked earlier... “are you suggesting that if there is or isn't control determines if there is a separate self? “

The implication being that “control” may exist, but it just belongs to life/experience as there is no separate entity here that can claim ownership of control.

So some gray area here...either control is a thought illusion, or control exists but belongs to life / experience.

What makes things happen?

I don’t know what makes things happen. There is life / experience and we are that.

How does it work?

There is life / experience / awareness happening expressing itself in multiple forms that are not separate from what is happening.... like previous analogy of waves on the ocean that believe they are unique but are all just ocean.

What are you responsible for?

There are roles being played and responsibilities being filled. Father, husband, son, brother, business partner, friend, caretaker, provider etc. What am i responsible for?... well within these roles there is the desire to meet expectations, action being taken to provide comfort, care, support, encouragement, help, service, friendship, love.

Give examples from experience.

There are family members and loved ones struggling and suffering with life situations. There is the desire and need to provide comfort, care, support etc. There is comforting, there is caring, supporting, encouraging, helping etc.... there is loving. There is no having or taking control of these situations.


Anything to add?

So grateful as always for your guidance.

Love

M

[Florisness]

Wonderful answers! It is the process here to let another guide read the questions, and they will pass me some extra questions to me to ask to you if they got any. So I'll let you know when there comes a response :-)

Love,
F

[mesmer]

Dank u wel Florisness.

[Florisness]

Dank u wel Florisness.

:-) graag gedaan mesmer. I hope you're feeling a little more okay these days

When resistance to a situation arises... the “sense of me” asserts itself with greater strength.

One of the other guides asked for some clarification at this statement. Can the sense of self become strong or weak? What are your thoughts on that?

Wishing you well,
Floris