On the verge of knowing or is it still a belief?

[ramziger]

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
The sense of an apparent separate self is a mental construct that cannot be found when searched for in experience. It seems ‘self’ appears to be the minds activity of referencing experience to a point it can use to perform its programming and conditioning.

What are you looking for at LU?
I feel on the verge of knowing that self is not real but want to ensure it is a true sensing and not more belief of an understanding. Looking for a guide to help ascertain clarity of seeing no self. Maybe there is an expectation that is holding it back, hoping to flush out these remnants of thought that prevent trusting my direct experience.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
Honest introspection into what is being seen and pointers to keep illusion from sneaking in the back door. A guide that can help me see where thought has snuck back in to try and control or own an action, seeing for certain that what I used to think was self-driven choice or direction is illusory.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
Started several years ago in questioning purpose of my life which evolved into reading books and listening to recordings of folks such as Eckhart Tolle, Alan Watts, Rupert Spira, and Adyashanti. Got into Zen Buddhism and nonduality but seemed I was just adding more concepts to understand and figure out. I recently stumbled onto this site from a comment from another website and read the Gateless Gatecrashers book and the direct pointing provided in those conversations really clicked.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self?
10

[Luchana]

Hi Ramziger,

(can I call you like this or you prefer another name?)

My name is Luchana and I can join you in this investigation if you wish. ( although I can only point, you have to see it for yourself). I’m not going to be your teacher, we simply will have a conversation. There are no wrong or right answers, so do not worry. It’s all ok.


Before we start some practical things:

1. How to use quotes funcion - viewtopic.php?f=4&t=660

2. Post once a day - it really helps to keep focus.

3. For the time of this investigation I will aks you to leave aside all the books and videos regarding the subject. If you have any daily practice - like meditation it’s ok to continue with it.

4. I will ask questions and will give you exercises. All you have to do is to look in your direct experience and answer from there. We look into the Direct Experience without assumptions and beliefs about what is. It is that simple.
What is Direct/Actual Experience? Everything we can experience with the 5 senses+thought (noticing the thought, but not what content of the thought is )
So, when we say Direct Experience we mean - what is it that we see now, what is it that we hear now, what is it that we taste now, what is it that we can smell now, what is it that we can touch now? + thought on the surface, but not what thought is about.

For example - If I ask you what is the colour of your socks today you can "think" and remember what socks did you pick this morning, or you just look and see what colour are they really.

Can we agree on these?


I see from your intro that you have a sense about the expectations.
But let's dig in them a little bit more.


What do you expect that should change?

What is feel incomplete now and has to be better later?



Sit with these questions as much time as you need and write what is true for you.


Much love

Luchana

[ramziger]

Hi Luchana! Thank you for taking up my query. I would love to have you join me in this investigation!

2. Post once a day - it really helps to keep focus.
3. For the time of this investigation I will aks you to leave aside all the books and videos regarding the subject. If you have any daily practice - like meditation it’s ok to continue with it.

Will do!

4. I will ask questions and will give you exercises. All you have to do is to look in your direct experience and answer from there. We look into the Direct Experience without assumptions and beliefs about what is. It is that simple.
What is Direct/Actual Experience? Everything we can experience with the 5 senses+thought (noticing the thought, but not what content of the thought is )
So, when we say Direct Experience we mean - what is it that we see now, what is it that we hear now, what is it that we taste now, what is it that we can smell now, what is it that we can touch now? + thought on the surface, but not what thought is about.

For example - If I ask you what is the colour of your socks today you can "think" and remember what socks did you pick this morning, or you just look and see what colour are they really.

Can we agree on these?

Yes.

What do you expect that should change?

In my time since posting I reviewed some of the archive conversations and as I saw pointed in several of those it dawned to me that I too have been expecting some fundamental shift that would lead to a constant change in how I see everything, like seeing from a continuous state of flow, a sort of mental state. I see now that a state isn’t what this is about or what I’m after in actuality, just to see things as they are without tying on concepts. I feel more at ease in seeing this of late and not identifying or at least noticing when a belief may be in play, its been gradual but more discernible.

What is feel incomplete now and has to be better later?

When I look as of right now nothing feels incomplete, I feel excitement from receiving your email and having this opportunity to discuss these questions with you. I used to have doubt as to if I’m truly seeing or if my mind had conceptualized it into a belief that I reached this point of view, but that was when I was still seeking a state. Seeing the “I” was looking for a state to reside in has cleared this up quite a bit, looking afresh at experience every time rather than from memory is a pointer I feel has helped tremendously. I sense there is more realizations and deeper beliefs to break down behind certain habits and that brings in fear that mind is still trying to assert itself or maybe I’ve just used a trick to avoid confronting them. But no that too is expectation and/or speculation ... I guess when these beliefs decide to pop-up, I’ll look into them in real-time as it were 😊

Thank you again for taking up my inquiry Luchana, much appreciation!

-Mike

[Luchana]

Hi Mike.

thank you for your reply and asnwers regarding expectations.

It's quite common that very easy one can miss something obvious because expecting something to happen, to change, to desolve, to melt, to disappear etc. Even what has been seen can be thrown out or ignored, since it doesn’t match the expected outcome.
Expectations result in comparison. Comparison between what is happening, and the imagined expectation.

From my experience I can share with you that it's never, ever the way we expected to be.

Although you have a sence about the expectations there are some hidden aswell.

Before we start this exploration (and I must say it's not going to be a discussion at all) let's try to find some of the hidden ones.

Tell me, what are you really looking for. How would your life change if you find that?
What are you hoping for?
What do you want to happen?



Be extremely honest, even if may feels painful.

Much love,

L.

[ramziger]

Hi Luchana,

It's quite common that very easy one can miss something obvious because expecting something to happen, to change, to desolve, to melt, to disappear etc. Even what has been seen can be thrown out or ignored, since it doesn’t match the expected outcome.Expectations result in comparison. Comparison between what is happening, and the imagined expectation.

Yes, this is a key reminder for me, thank you for pointing it out. When looking close I am seeing how I've been doing this a lot behind the scenes and am glad to recognize it now. (Note - this comment came after I responded to the questions as it became more apparent upon answering)

Tell me, what are you really looking for. How would your life change if you find that?

I don’t even know for certain anymore ... to love honestly, live authentically is what comes up. I wouldn’t feel like I’m having to put up a show based on others expectations or society norms, wouldn’t feel guilty anymore. It just dawned on me is that it is not others expectations but my own on how I should behave or comparing, as you mentioned, what I should be doing vs where my mind and comfort level point me, which is why there is guilt … yet mind and comfort level are more conditioning though and not what is real. When I don’t bring in these thoughts and just view from what is in the moment much if not all of what I just raised doesn’t even matter or bother me anymore. Its kinda funny to see…will keep looking at these thoughts as those moments arise.

What are you hoping for?

Clarity, peace, love.

What do you want to happen?

I don’t want anything to happen really, just want to see when thoughts are clouding the experience and not be deluded by them anymore. I am beginning to see this with more regulatory ever since I’ve found this website.

Much appreciation L.
-Mike

[Luchana]

Hi Mike,

Thank you for your honesty. Let's look closer all of these.

to love honestly, live authentically is what comes up.

But what if there is no me/self, nothing at all, which could live authentically and love honestly?

I wouldn’t feel like I’m having to put up a show based on others expectations or society norms, wouldn’t feel guilty anymore.

What if seeing through the self is not about not feeling guilt anymore?

Clarity, peace, love.

And what if seeing through the self is not about getting into a state where there is only clarity, love and peace?
What if there is a room for anything?

just want to see when thoughts are clouding the experience and not be deluded by them anymore

What if thoughts will not stop clouding the experience? Do you hope that thoughts will stop appearing?
Why would they stop just because seeing no self?

So called unpleasant sensation and thoughts will not stop just because you see no self. Some old traumas, patterns or emotional pain may still show up and will need some further work. It's easier to work on these after seeing no-self.

For the time of our investigation, I will ask you again to stop reading or listening any teachers, stop reading archives from the site aswell. Rather spend your time looking. You have to see this experientially and not relying on others’ experiences.

Can we agree on these?

Please read my above comments carefully a few more times and tell me what comes up by reading the comments about the expectations.

Is there any resistance to any of it?

Much love to you

luchana

[ramziger]

Luchana, thank you so much for taking the time to guide me, much love!

But what if there is no me/self, nothing at all, which could live authentically and love honestly?

Life continues anyway. Wow, can’t believe how easily this was overlooked before! The me/self that wants to live authentically and love openly and honestly is just the me thought! Just the mind doing its thing in labelling, judging, applying concepts to assert control or a “doing” over experience. In looking directly right now there is sensory stimuli (hearing, perceiving, body sensations), typing … thoughts come and go, focusing attention occurs but experiencing continues regardless … no additional labelling of this is necessary at all.

What if seeing through the self is not about not feeling guilt anymore?

Guilt may still arise and that is ok.

And what if seeing through the self is not about getting into a state where there is only clarity, love and peace?
What if there is a room for anything?

Yes, there is no telling what will show up in experience and this is all ok. No self to hold onto any of it anyhow.

What if thoughts will not stop clouding the experience? Do you hope that thoughts will stop appearing?
Why would they stop just because seeing no self?

The experience isn't affected, the thoughts are all part of it. Thoughts still come regardless even when seeing no self, there is no desire or hoping for thoughts to stop appearing.

For the time of our investigation, I will ask you again to stop reading or listening any teachers, stop reading archives from the site aswell. Rather spend your time looking. You have to see this experientially and not relying on others’ experiences.

Can we agree on these?

No problem, have been focusing on direct experience as much as possible, not relying on past although I see some may have come up in comparing things.

Please read my above comments carefully a few more times and tell me what comes up by reading the comments about the expectations.

Is there any resistance to any of it?

No resistance to any of it.

-Mike

[Luchana]

Hi Mike.

thank you for your asnwers.

Why I asked for your honesty? Because the honesty is very important, actually it's essential in what we are doing here.
To be 100 % honest doesn't mean to give "the right" answers, and not give any bad ones either. It means that you reply only what you can actually see experientially and not what you think to be a good answer or what you understand intellectually.
Since your answers is everything what I have and if they are not completely honest than my replies won't be adequate.

But it's all ok. I also played that game. Wanted to give right answers and wanted to show how much I know.
(You will soon laugh at this, I can say :-))

As a next step let's investigate thoughts.

Sit quietly for about 30 minutes and notice the arising thoughts. Just let them appear as they appear. Try your best to COMPLETELY ignore what they are saying and just notice them.

Take as much time as you need and aswer the following questions:


Where are they coming from and going to?
Did you do anything to make a particular thought or thoughts appear?
Could you have done anything to make a different thought appear at that exact moment instead?
Can you predict your next thought?
Can you select from a range of thoughts to have only pleasant thoughts?
Can you choose not to have painful, negative or fearful thoughts?
Can you pick and choose any kind of thought?
Is it possible to prevent a thought from appearing?


Much love to you

Luchana

[ramziger]

Hi Luchana :-)

I worked on this exercise several times today, here is what I found:

As a next step let's investigate thoughts.

Sit quietly for about 30 minutes and notice the arising thoughts. Just let them appear as they appear. Try your best to COMPLETELY ignore what they are saying and just notice them.

Where are they coming from and going to?

I have no idea, they just appear then disappear.

Did you do anything to make a particular thought or thoughts appear?

No. I did see some thoughts appear to occur in response to sensations but rest were random.

Could you have done anything to make a different thought appear at that exact moment instead?

No

Can you predict your next thought?

No

Can you select from a range of thoughts to have only pleasant thoughts?

No

Can you choose not to have painful, negative or fearful thoughts?

No

Can you pick and choose any kind of thought?

No

Is it possible to prevent a thought from appearing?

No

Thank you again for your guidance.
-Mike

[Luchana]

Hi Mike,

I worked on this exercise several times today, here is what I found:

I appreciate this, it's very important.

I have no idea, they just appear then disappear.

Good.

No. I did see some thoughts appear to occur in response to sensations but rest were random

it's good to notice this. Is it possible that this one is also a thought?

Could you have done anything to make a different thought appear at that exact moment instead?
No
Can you predict your next thought?
No
Can you select from a range of thoughts to have only pleasant thoughts?
No
Can you choose not to have painful, negative or fearful thoughts?
No
Can you pick and choose any kind of thought?
No
Is it possible to prevent a thought from appearing?
No

You did a nice looking.

Thank you again for your guidance.

Welcome. It is a real joy :-)

Let's try an experiment

Get a sheet of paper and draw a line that divides that sheet in half. Label one half 'self' and the other side 'other'. Sit down and start a timer for 5 minutes. Every time you have a thought make a mark on the sheet. If that thought is about the self put a mark on the self side, if it’s about something else, mark the other side. If a thought about food occurs due to feeling hungry, mark that on the self side. Any thought that refers back to a self should go on the self side. (I'm bored, I'm tired, is the door locked (my safety) that video was funny (I was amused), my back hurts, I am frightened).

Let me see what you found.

Much love,

Luchana

[ramziger]

Let's try an experiment

Get a sheet of paper and draw a line that divides that sheet in half. Label one half 'self' and the other side 'other'. Sit down and start a timer for 5 minutes. Every time you have a thought make a mark on the sheet. If that thought is about the self put a mark on the self side, if it’s about something else, mark the other side. If a thought about food occurs due to feeling hungry, mark that on the self side. Any thought that refers back to a self should go on the self side. (I'm bored, I'm tired, is the door locked (my safety) that video was funny (I was amused), my back hurts, I am frightened).

Vast majority were 'self' ... eye opening to say the least ... this brings doubt to any thought ever had, unreal. Had not realized how self-serving they were in reality ... wow.

God bless you Luchana, really. This some unreal pointers.

-Mike

[Luchana]

Hi Mike,

Vast majority were 'self' ... eye opening to say the least

Great :-)
If you investigate the minority is it possible that they are also about ‘me’ in a hidden way?

this brings doubt to any thought ever had, unreal. Had not realized how self-serving they were in reality ... wow.

And how does it feel to see this? Is it a disappointing discovery? Or relaxing? Or something between these two?



Let's check this one.

Close your eyes and imagine holding a watermelon in your hands.
Imagine it so vividly that you can feel its weight, the shape and texture of the skin.
Hold it there, sensing it.
Then open your eyes.

What happened to the melon?
How about the sensation that was so believable?
Was there ever a melon in ‘reality’?
Was there an appearing mental image?
Was the content of the mental image (the melon) ‘real’?

Let me see what you find.

Much love,

Luchana

[ramziger]

Hi Luchana, hope all is well :)

If you investigate the minority is it possible that they are also about ‘me’ in a hidden way?

Yes this is possible, will keep looking into this...

And how does it feel to see this? Is it a disappointing discovery? Or relaxing? Or something between these two?

Not disappointing more relieving feeling than anything.

What happened to the melon?
How about the sensation that was so believable?
Was there ever a melon in ‘reality’?
Was there an appearing mental image?
Was the content of the mental image (the melon) ‘real’?

Nothing happened to it since it did not exist. The sensation felt was just air on the hands but memory of holding a real melon and its texture was imagined. No melon was ever in reality. There was an appearing mental image but the content was not real.

very interesting seeing this in action.

Much appreciation to you Luchana,
Mike

[Luchana]

Hi Mike,

Hi Mikie,

all is well, thank you.

Not disappointing more relieving feeling than anything.

Relieve is good.

Nothing happened to it since it did not exist. The sensation felt was just air on the hands but memory of holding a real melon and its texture was imagined. No melon was ever in reality. There was an appearing mental image but the content was not real.

very interesting seeing this in action.

Yes, there is a difference between actual experience of a thought and what thought brings , the content of thought.

You are doing great Mike, keep looking the thoughts.

I will back a little bit later.

Much love,

Luchana

[ramziger]

Much appreciated Luchana. Will catch up with you later. =)

-Mike