So.. who wants to be my lucky guide? :-)

[Damon Kamda]

Yes, I totally understand it now.

Some of my fellow guides have expressed concern that your understanding here may indeed be *just* intellectual, and frankly they may be right. You yourself wrote that this may be the case earlier.

So? Has a definite perceptual shift occured or is this just an idea at this point?

Thanks, Ido.

[idolanuel]

At times I think it occured, and it times I feel it ain't, or maybe that it is just not stable yet. Too many questions still arise. So I guess that the answer is not. It is still just an idea.

I want to talk again about the choice thing.
I've just ate dinner. While doing so, I could found my self eating very quickley. Seeing this, I have had a choice of trying to eat mindfullness or just continue eating quickly. I'm quite lazt at times, so I've decided to eat quickly. Now, I understand that there wasn't any "Me" behind this choice. But it still seems that there is a choice and someone or something who chooses. It is the same with everything - I get up in the morning and have a choice if meditating or not, if to play my violin or not, if I want to work or not. So what is it?

10x

[idolanuel]

It is quite like the "attentive" talk that we have had earlier. The difference between the one who is not attentive to himself eating and the one whose attentive is just a thought. BUT, the whole experience is different when we eat mindfullness or not - this thought, or choice, does affect the reality we experience.
?

[Damon Kamda]

At times I think it occured, and it times I feel it ain't, or maybe that it is just not stable yet.

Ok, thanks for the clear answer. The shift that we're concerned with here is unmistakable. There'll be no doubt whatsoever that it has occured.

So, let's continue.

But it still seems that there is a choice and someone or something who chooses. It is the same with everything - I get up in the morning and have a choice if meditating or not, if to play my violin or not, if I want to work or not. So what is it?

This is an excellent entry point for seeing how this works, Ido.

Now the problem is, I could give you my perspective on this but I don't think that will be very helpful.
I want you to crack this yourself.

Take some time to closely and attentively (hehe) observe a moment of choice, any moment of choice. Look at the intricate elements of the actual experience.

How do choices get made?
What exactly is a choice, a decision?

Look first, then describe it here.

BUT, the whole experience is different when we eat mindfullness or not - this thought, or choice, does affect the reality we experience.

Sure, there is a difference between eating mindfully and eating with distraction. Those are two qualitatively different experiences, no doubt. Yet what we're interested in now is the idea of choice, of free will, of actually seeing how experience works.

Give this some time and see if you can spend a day with this examination- what is choice, how does it work?

The "secret" is hiding in plain sight, but you have to look closely.

[idolanuel]

Hey man,

Alright so this is how I think it works -

First, a thought is coming to mind - I have to do something now, I have to go somehwere now, I have to blablabla.

Second, a series of thoughts are coming to mind, examining the options from the point of view of the "I". Using the mindset or the set of beliefs of the mind, it decides eventually which path to take - "If I'll meditate now I will be... But if I won't meditate now than... So I will meditate now!" or "I need to eat mindfully because I will be healthier... But I don't have the powers for that now, so maybe I'll just continue reading about wars in the newspapers??? YES! This is what I will do!"...

Now, A choice is eventually being made, no doubt about it, it just that there is no one behind that choice. It is the mind who chooses, based on his beliefs of what is good or bad or sometimes based on things coming up from a deeper level (And he is sometimes right, eating mindfully is healthier for the body than not. It is also healthier for the "soul". It is just that this body and soul does not belong to anyone)

That's what I have for now,
Peace

[Damon Kamda]

Ok, good. Thanks.

First, a thought is coming to mind - I have to do something now, I have to go somehwere now, I have to blablabla.

Yes.
And where does the thought, and the subsequent series of thoughts come from? What is their source? Tell me what is seen to happen, not what you think or have learned happens or should happen....

Now, A choice is eventually being made, no doubt about it, it just that there is no one behind that choice. It is the mind who chooses, based on his beliefs of what is good or bad or sometimes based on things coming up from a deeper level

Do you see how you're contradicting yourself here?

Look again.
And again.
And again.

It is the mind who chooses

Where is the mind that is making the choice?
What is the mind, what is it made of?
HOW does it make the choice?

Experientially, what is this mind you assume is behind the choices that are made?

[idolanuel]

"There is no one behind that choice. It is the mind who chooses" - HAHA that's cool.

Alright so all thoughts seems to be coming from a void and disappearing to a void. It seems so because between a thought and other there is a silence. As I keep looking, the thoughts seems to get more quiet as this void seems to get "larger".

"it is the mind who chooses" - so I can't track any mind in there now. In the last post I referred to a "something" or "someone" who holds all thoughts, make decisions and so on... But it is now seen that this someone or something is also a story. There is just a flow of more and more thoughts that are coming from nowhere and going to no where.

How does it make a choice? Well there is no one makes a choice. It seems It is just one more thought that says: "OK, after looking at the options, I believe that the best option is option A, because it will make me healthier"

[Damon Kamda]

"There is no one behind that choice. It is the mind who chooses" - HAHA that's cool.

Haha, yes, isn't it just? You see how persistent these assumptions are? They just show up everywhere.

Alright so all thoughts seems to be coming from a void and disappearing to a void. It seems so because between a thought and other there is a silence. As I keep looking, the thoughts seems to get more quiet as this void seems to get "larger".

"it is the mind who chooses" - so I can't track any mind in there now. In the last post I referred to a "something" or "someone" who holds all thoughts, make decisions and so on... But it is now seen that this someone or something is also a story. There is just a flow of more and more thoughts that are coming from nowhere and going to no where.

How does it make a choice? Well there is no one makes a choice. It seems It is just one more thought that says: "OK, after looking at the options, I believe that the best option is option A, because it will make me healthier"

Yes, so you see the chooser is a thought as well. Can you actually see this being the case in your experience?

Test it out some more, even in the most mundane of situations. Can you see that everything is just happening and does not require a manager- a chooser?

Take some time to test this out exhaustively and tell me what comes up. Any questions, observations? We'll continue exploring after that.

Just a quick note: I'll be off for the weekend again, so we'll pick this up after that.

Have fun!

[idolanuel]

Hi man,

OK I keep looking, no new question comes up for now.

I can see that it is all stories upon stories upon stories.

Peace

[idolanuel]

So there is a story which goes something like "bla bla bla".
And than there is someone who watches this story.
And this someone, who sees it, is also a story who goes something like "bla bla bla".
And the one who is now writing this post, and explains "you" how it all works - is also a bla bla bla story.
And these stories - they never stop. They keep creating themselves again and again.

And when there is a saying like "these stories" I actually mean "these stories" that are differentiated from the soo smart "me". So here is another one.

Where does this cycle end? Where does awareness meets the mind and they walk together happily ? Where is this point? - oops, here is just another story - "In a far away land, there exist a point in which awareness and mind lives together happily... bla bla bla...."

[Damon Kamda]

So there is a story which goes something like "bla bla bla".
And than there is someone who watches this story.
And this someone, who sees it, is also a story who goes something like "bla bla bla".
And the one who is now writing this post, and explains "you" how it all works - is also a bla bla bla story.
And these stories - they never stop. They keep creating themselves again and again.

And when there is a saying like "these stories" I actually mean "these stories" that are differentiated from the soo smart "me". So here is another one.

Where does this cycle end? Where does awareness meets the mind and they walk together happily ? Where is this point? - oops, here is just another story - "In a far away land, there exist a point in which awareness and mind lives together happily... bla bla bla...."So, how does it feel

How does it feel to see this?

[idolanuel]

It feels like I don't know how to get out of this cycle.

I mean, I guess that the only thing left to do is to deeply accept it, as this is exactly what it is and that is all there is to it. And than a question like "how do I surrender?" comes up, and here is the same cycle again.

In any case, it all still feels too intellectual.

[Damon Kamda]

It feels like I don't know how to get out of this cycle.

I mean, I guess that the only thing left to do is to deeply accept it, as this is exactly what it is and that is all there is to it. And than a question like "how do I surrender?" comes up, and here is the same cycle again.

In any case, it all still feels too intellectual.

Ok, then. Let's stop treating this as an intellectual puzzle then and let's get real.

This insight does not come as a thought- in fact whatever the contents of your thoughts may or may not be is wholly irrelevant. It's about seeing the nature of thought.

I know, from experience, how frustrating this can be and how hopeless these endless cycles may seem. And in a way they are, because there's no way to think yourself out of this. The shift takes place on a different level and is primarily non-conceptual.

That's why I am asking you what this feels like.

I want you to strip this down to its bare essentials.
Leave everything you think you know about this aside for a moment and simply look at what is present.

On the level of raw sensation. Simple, obvious.

When you consider that there is no you at all, no one to surrender, no one to get out of any cycle. No self anywhere. What comes up? Can you describe the visceral experience of this, because that is where it is at, Ido.

[idolanuel]

There are just 'things'.
Voices, movements, thoughts, feelings, tastes, wind...

[Damon Kamda]

There are just 'things'.
Voices, movements, thoughts, feelings, tastes, wind...

That's an abstraction, Ido.

I want you to get down to the bare essentials of YOUR experience right now.

When you write:

It feels like I don't know how to get out of this cycle.

I'm inviting you to describe the quality of your experience. What is being felt right now?