Liberation?

[matt1313]

i believe i am in control of the sensations and actions carried out and sensed because i'm afraid of not being in control. perhaps this belief stems from being afraid of things not going my way. the way that i want them to go. no matter how often it's proven to me that it is not me in control, but instead something "greater, bigger" than me, the thought always slips in that somehow in some crazy or farfetched way it was all thanks to me. my self tends to find as much meaning in things as it can, personalising and identifying them with it self. this also comes from the belief that I am special, that me, me, me is particularly different in some way and better than everyone else. the fear of releasing control comes from me being afraid of not being special, not being profoundly different, better in some way than everyone else. this is my self story.

the more the "effects of a heightened vibration" seemed to manifest themselves the more the self was able to attribute it all to it self. only it was experiencing such fantastic meanings and increased perceptions of the world around it self. it would then create a story for a more enlightened me. me, me, me.

self-centered-ness, fear of not being center of the world, fear of losing control over my own life. new ego slips in, or rather old ego modifies it self to appear better, more special, more influential over it's world, reinforcing it's seeming specialness.

[zenkitties]

So if you were special then everyone would be special so really that is no classification that's worth noting. You and everyone else is either special (which makes all normal) or none is special... this is only part of conventional speech which doesn't actually exist... two sides of the same coin... you get the point.

However just because it's conventional doesn't mean the appearance is not there. Obviously the appearance is... well there. It's being experienced as an experience.

i believe i am in control of the sensations and actions carried out and sensed because i'm afraid of not being in control.

This is good to see, is there a you in control? Has there ever actually been a you there to be in control?

Is there even control outside of the thought?

What changes if the thought of control vanishes?

[matt1313]

specialness - true, not even worth noting

not quite seeing the no-one in control thing yet however,

if the thought of control vanishes, absolutely nothing changes, besides how "you" see things. today sitting on the tube i heard a bag rustle, but immediately the thought appeared that how did i know that that was a bag, it was just a sound, i didn't see a bag, i didn't feel a bag, a label simply appeared for the sound: "bag". but there was no bag in the sound, just the sound. this must be the same with the self, something is done, and immediately a label is put on to it as something did that, or the thought of something about to be done occurs, and then a label is put on that "i" will do that thing.

it seems difficult sometimes to take a step back and just observe what is being done, but the more the mind wanders, the less THERE "I" appear to be, and the more the external experience seems to either falter, or almost disappear. it seems like the whole continuity thing again

the mind switches between two different places when it's imagining something. the here and now, and the imagined, the more focus is on the imagination the less frequent the frames of the here and now, like a movie, but with two reels running and them switching between the two depending on where the focus lies...

[zenkitties]

if the thought of control vanishes, absolutely nothing changes, besides how "you" see things. today sitting on the tube i heard a bag rustle, but immediately the thought appeared that how did i know that that was a bag, it was just a sound, i didn't see a bag, i didn't feel a bag, a label simply appeared for the sound: "bag". but there was no bag in the sound, just the sound. this must be the same with the self, something is done, and immediately a label is put on to it as something did that, or the thought of something about to be done occurs, and then a label is put on that "i" will do that thing.

That's because the thought of how a bag sounds is conditioned like software is conditioned in a computer. there is no bag in the sound, it is just the sound happening. then the thought sensation, and thus making "sense" of it all. Now was there a you in the hearing anywhere?

it seems difficult sometimes to take a step back and just observe what is being done, but the more the mind wanders, the less THERE "I" appear to be, and the more the external experience seems to either falter, or almost disappear. it seems like the whole continuity thing again

yes false sense of continuity, keep seeing this in everything that is being experienced until there is that recognition.

the mind switches between two different places when it's imagining something. the here and now, and the imagined, the more focus is on the imagination the less frequent the frames of the here and now, like a movie, but with two reels running and them switching between the two depending on where the focus lies...

yes but even with that being said, the fantasy or story that's made up is still right here, right now. IT isn't anywhere else except exactly where it's always been.

[matt1313]

No there wasn't a me anywhere in the hearing... it just happened... but thoughts about the I are still being believed... I see through them, but they don't seem any different from a couple of weeks ago... there hasn't been any revelation or especially A-HA moment, it's all the same as it was before...

[zenkitties]

but thoughts about the I are still being believed... I see through them, but they don't seem any different from a couple of weeks ago...

why would they be different? who said they would be different?

what is at the core of these thoughts that is activating this thought of, "I believe this."

what tensions, sensations, etc. are associated with that thought.

[matt1313]

Sorry I haven't been messaging much, but I don't seem to be making progress whatsoever, I do try and see where the self is, but the answer no one (or rather an I pops up and says "I already know this") keeps coming up and I don't know where to go... As I'm sure you know I'm super busy at the moment trying to figure out a new place to live, changing work, saying bye to friends and all, it's like I'm leaving another chapter behind and moving on to the next, but the transition takes effort and time and distracts me from this quest. Thoughts of giving up on this technique have often come up, just allowing the story to settle in, and eventually time will be be found for this, or I'll have the experience during a shroom or lsd trip. I do seem to be more an observer of my life than a doer, but I'm not quite sure what to make of it or what attitude to have towards it... kind of feel like i literally don't know anything and I'm just a little child along for the ride, kind of knowing whats going on and kind of doing something about it, but not really, more just being taken along for the ride not knowing what to make of it.

[zenkitties]

No problems matt,

Can you answer the questions above please. You seem to be avoiding them.

Also find out who it is that is wanting to give up and who it is that "already knows this." Who knows it?

[zenkitties]

Hey matt,

just checking in on you, are you still there?

[matt1313]

Yes I am, but I'm really busy at the moment, I'm going part time soon and moving to uni so I'll have time again. I'll be back, in the meantime I'll try answer the questions asap! :)

[zenkitties]

no problems just making sure you didn't do a runner on me! :P

[matt1313]

Is there a you in control? Has there ever actually been a you there to be in control?
There is a me, but this me isn't in control of anything, although the illusion of control is constantly being created with each new thing that is being experienced. This me surfaces most when a decision has to be made, whether a big decision as to what uni to go to or a small one such as which way to walk when both ways lead to the same destination. There hasn't ever been a me to be there in control of what is happening, it's always just been an illusion.

Is there even control outside of the thought?
In thought control seems the least prevalent, thoughts come and go, but control seems to be in the "in-between", as in a conscious decision being made on what to focus: sensation, thought or emotion. Outside of thought control appears a lot stronger because decisions have to be made as to everything that occurs, whether to itch, whether to stand up, whether to make some food, all as a response to sensations. There doesn't seem to be much control as to sensations themselves, they are like thought, they come and go.

What changes if the thought of control vanishes?
Nothing. Control is just a thought so if it vanished things would just be occurring, being experienced by something. There would have to be something experiencing it.. but that doesn't seem right. How could experience just occur.. just occur..

why would they be different? who said they would be different?
they would be different because they would be perceived by someone who had changed, a change would occur in the person and thoughts would either have changed or the way in which they were interpreted would have changed.

what is at the core of these thoughts that is activating this thought of, "I believe this."
I guess it's just another thought.. I don't know about "activating" the thought, it just kind of occurs, there isn't any control over the thought of the I appearing. the thought of "my" thought just happens alongside the thought itself.

what tensions, sensations, etc. are associated with that thought.
it depends on what the "this" is. If the thought "I believe I am real" occurs then doubt, reassurance... wait those are emotions... I don't really know how to answer this question... thoughts and sensations seem rather separate..

who it is that is wanting to give up and who it is that "already knows this." Who knows it?

[zenkitties]

Hey matt,

Glad to see you back and posting. I missed you! Haha :) Alright here to we.

This me surfaces most when a decision has to be made, whether a big decision as to what uni to go to or a small one such as which way to walk when both ways lead to the same destination. There hasn't ever been a me to be there in control of what is happening, it's always just been an illusion.

Oh? Does this me prove there is an existence of a you? If so, where is it? That looks more like just a story playing out to me. sure choosing is done, and controlling seems to be happening, but is there a you anywhere in that. That me is just story. Please look and see this.

Outside of thought control appears a lot stronger because decisions have to be made as to everything that occurs, whether to itch, whether to stand up, whether to make some food, all as a response to sensations. There doesn't seem to be much control as to sensations themselves, they are like thought, they come and go.

Do decisions have to be made. Regardless of whether you are there or not, they will get made or not. Is there a you in the decision that is made?

Nothing. Control is just a thought so if it vanished things would just be occurring, being experienced by something. There would have to be something experiencing it.. but that doesn't seem right. How could experience just occur.. just occur..

Are you so sure that experiencing cannot happen without an experiencer. This is important that you look at this. what is saying it doesn't seem right? Is that not another thought saying that. Is It True?

It is extremely possible for things to just occur, in fact it IS this way, the story of you is just happening so that it labels events that are already going on as its own. That its happening to someone.

they would be different because they would be perceived by someone who had changed, a change would occur in the person and thoughts would either have changed or the way in which they were interpreted would have changed.

Is there a you there to change. Where is it?

I guess it's just another thought.. I don't know about "activating" the thought, it just kind of occurs, there isn't any control over the thought of the I appearing. the thought of "my" thought just happens alongside the thought itself.

Good observation. So then why are you giving that thought more way if its the same as the other. They aren't different. Both thoughts, both have zero weight and empty. so how or why is the you thought different?

it depends on what the "this" is. If the thought "I believe I am real" occurs then doubt, reassurance... wait those are emotions... I don't really know how to answer this question... thoughts and sensations seem rather separate..

they aren't thoughts are a sensation. they pop in an out of existence just like every other sensation, without a controller. without a you, look and see for yourself. :)

Who knows it?

Good question, look.

[matt1313]

the me changes by itself, it is just an attachment to being afraid of losing control, and it clings to the belief in being in control of itself. it's flimsy and very plain, clinging to every doubt and worry available, when it's seen through there is just sensation and contentment, no doubt about what needs to be done, things are just done, everything just flows, a feeling of fullness and oneness with everything and everyone is just being felt, there is noone there, it's just like an empty shell.

[zenkitties]

So with that being said,

Is there an I anywhere in existence right now in direct experience?

Was there an I ever in existence?