Stop feeling bad and realizing the ultimate truth

[ratnapani]

Hi Seenam,

Sunshine and showers !

I shouldn't have asked you to find a me, if you do that you will find a sense of self.

The question I wanted you to look into was.

Is there anything separate from experience having experience right now ?

Anything, anywhere, separate from regular sense experience ?

All the best,
Steve.

[Search1207]

Hi Steve

Is there anything separate from experience having experience right now ?

Anything, anywhere, separate from regular sense experience ?

There is someone processing the experience, giving definition to the experience whether it's a pleasant or unpleasant experience and so on

Regards
Seenam

[ratnapani]

Hi Seenam,

There is someone processing the experience, giving definition to the experience whether it's a pleasant or unpleasant experience and so on

Really, have you seen this someone doing that? That happens but can you find this separate entity doing it?

There are choices, can you find 'a chooser' ?
There are decisions, can you find a decider?

You have to look for them

All the best,
Steve.

[Search1207]

Hi Steve

Really, have you seen this someone doing that? That happens but can you find this separate entity doing it?

I can't find that 'someone' who is processing the experience but it is happening by itself.

There are choices, can you find 'a chooser' ?
There are decisions, can you find a decider?

Chooser and decider can't be found. Making choices and taking decisions happens by itself.

While discovering this, there was a question that popped up - that if there is no chooser and decider, an individual can't be held liable for his/her actions and they can continue to do any amount of harm to other individual/individuals. There is no immediate interest to know answer to this question but there are more questions popping up like whatever has happened during course of life, was it suppose to happen just like that or was there an option of things happening in a different way if a different choice was made. For future, would things happen the way they would happen or is there is choice that can be made?

Regards
Seenam

[ratnapani]

Hi Seenam,

Those questions won't exist once you have seen through the belief that forms them.

Meanwhile the 2 drinks!

Place 2 beverages that you like side by side on a table.
Sit quietly in front of them for 5 mins and then reach out, take one up and take a sip

Watch the whole process quietly but closely, allowing any thoughts to be as they are.

Please describe the whole process here.
Did you see the chooser?
Unfortunately my broadband is down and it's quite a journey to the nearest wifi so I don't know if I'll be back on before Monday!

All the best Steve.

[Search1207]

Hi Steve,

Sure, no issues, I will wait for your reply

Place 2 beverages that you like side by side on a table.
Sit quietly in front of them for 5 mins and then reach out, take one up and take a sip

Watch the whole process quietly but closely, allowing any thoughts to be as they are.

Please describe the whole process here.
Did you see the chooser?

At the start of the exercise, attention kept drifting to other objects present in the room. Then after a few seconds, attention diverted to the two bottles with drink. I tried to focus hard on which one should be the preferable one. There were thoughts saying that it's not a matter of life and death so choose any, how does it matter and then there were thoughts that I need to do this exercise properly and thus need to decide on either of the drinks. There was only one voice ( thought) doing the talking, there were no other thoughts. After a while, even this voice was quiet. When 5 mins were about to get over, again the voice evaluated which drink to preferred but there was no conclusion. At end of five minutes, I picked up one of the bottle and had the drink.

There were two options available for a choice to be made, there was analysis involved on why one should be chosen above another. Finally one of the drinks was chosen randomly, there was no chooser to be found. There were choices, there was a choice made but there was no chooser.

Regards
Seenam

[Search1207]

Hi Steve

How are you? Hope your WiFi connection is back soon.

Looking forward to your reply

Regards
Seenam

[ratnapani]

Hi Seenam,

I'm back.

Were/are you aware of there being an absence where you would have presumed a chooser?
Was / is anyone in control of any of the process, noticing, thinking, resisting even ?

Please do any exercises gently and kindly and with curiosity, like you have no expectations, just fine observation.
Who knows, you might find a lobster !

All the best,
Steve.

[Search1207]

Hi Steve

Glad you are back :)

Were/are you aware of there being an absence where you would have presumed a chooser?
Was / is anyone in control of any of the process, noticing, thinking, resisting even ?

There is no presence or absence of any chooser. There is nothing. Choice was made because it was supposed to be made.

There is no one in control of any process, noticing, thinking or resisting. There is a continuous commentary by the voice in the background but it is just doing what it does - commenting.

Sorry, but didn't find lobster as well ;)

Regards
Seenam

[ratnapani]

Hi Senam,

No lobster !

If you can't find a chooser thinker etc what is this 'I'

What comes up when it is read that there is absolutely no “you” in any way, shape or form, there never has been a “you”, nor is there or will be there ever be?

What does "I" point to?

What does the word "I" or "me" point to, here and now?" or;

When you say "I", what does that refer to in direct experience? Please describe in detail – does it have a shape? A size? A quality

Simple questions but do take your time

All the best
Steve

[Search1207]

Hi Steve

If you can't find a chooser thinker etc what is this 'I'

What comes up when it is read that there is absolutely no “you” in any way, shape or form, there never has been a “you”, nor is there or will be there ever be?

What does "I" point to?

What does the word "I" or "me" point to, here and now?" or;

When you say "I", what does that refer to in direct experience? Please describe in detail – does it have a shape? A size? A quality

When looking for an 'I' , there is nothing to be found, there is no-one. There is just that constant voice, a thought all along saying 'i this', 'i that', 'others this', 'others that'. It keeps commenting non-stop.
This voice is not me, mine or I; it is just there. But there is a strong believe in this voice as if everything it says is true. Looking at this belief, there is nothing to be found but don't know why there is still stickiness to the voice. While doing this exercise, it doesn't feel so sticky but in routine life, it feels like ultimate truth.

Regards
Seenam

[ratnapani]

Hi Seenam,

Let's look at this 'I' voice.


“I” labelling
Get a sheet of paper and draw a line that divides that sheet in half. Label one half 'self' and the other side 'other'. Sit down and start a timer for 5 minutes. Every time you have a thought make a mark on the sheet. If that thought is about the self put a mark on the self side, if it’s about something else, mark the other side. If a thought about food occurs due to feeling hungry, mark that on the self side. Any thought that refers back to a self should go on the self side. (I'm bored, I'm tired, is the door locked (my safety) that video was funny (I was amused), my back hurts, I am frightened) get it?
Let me know how you go and what you notice.

Mind labelling experience
Here is an exercise which examines the way in which the mind labels experience - it takes about 20 minutes and you will need a pen a paper.
This exercise is broken into 10 minute lots. For each 10 minute period pay attention to any bodily sensation ie is there any tightening, or any relaxing?
For the first ten minutes write down what you are experiencing right now using the word “I”.
For example: I am sitting on a chair, I am hearing a clock ticking, I am looking at a computer screen, I am feeling hungry. Get right to the point, no past or future fantasy, just a plain description of your experience right here and now.
Then for the next ten minutes continue writing down what you are experiencing but this time without using the word “I”. Just describe the experience as it is happening using verbs. For example: sitting on a chair, typing, breathing, blinking, hearing the clock. (Again, watch what is happening in the body.)
At the end of the twenty minutes compare the two ways in which the experience was labelled and answer the following four questions:
1. Is one truer than the other, and If so, which one?
2. What is here without labels?

3. Do labels affect the experience or just describe it?
4. Did you notice any differences in the body?

Enjoy
All the best,
Ratnapani.

[ratnapani]

Ps,

Slip of the keyboard there, I used to guide as Ratnapani,

Steve x

[Search1207]

Hi Steve,

Hope you are doing well

I couldn't do the exercises today; will reply tomorrow

Regards
Seenam

[Search1207]

Hi Steve

“I” labelling
Get a sheet of paper and draw a line that divides that sheet in half. Label one half 'self' and the other side 'other'. Sit down and start a timer for 5 minutes. Every time you have a thought make a mark on the sheet. If that thought is about the self put a mark on the self side, if it’s about something else, mark the other side. If a thought about food occurs due to feeling hungry, mark that on the self side. Any thought that refers back to a self should go on the self side. (I'm bored, I'm tired, is the door locked (my safety) that video was funny (I was amused), my back hurts, I am frightened) get it?
Let me know how you go and what you notice.

All the thoughts were 'i' thoughts, there was no 'others' thought. The thoughts that appears to be 'others' thought was also an 'I' thought wrapped in garb of 'others' thought. Others thought were mainly someone saying/doing/said/done/would be saying/would be doing something to 'me'. 'Others' are either related to 'me' (my husband, my mother, my son etc) or they can be perceived (seen, touched, heard, felt) by 'me'

Mind labelling experience
Here is an exercise which examines the way in which the mind labels experience - it takes about 20 minutes and you will need a pen a paper.
This exercise is broken into 10 minute lots. For each 10 minute period pay attention to any bodily sensation ie is there any tightening, or any relaxing?
For the first ten minutes write down what you are experiencing right now using the word “I”.
For example: I am sitting on a chair, I am hearing a clock ticking, I am looking at a computer screen, I am feeling hungry. Get right to the point, no past or future fantasy, just a plain description of your experience right here and now.
Then for the next ten minutes continue writing down what you are experiencing but this time without using the word “I”. Just describe the experience as it is happening using verbs. For example: sitting on a chair, typing, breathing, blinking, hearing the clock. (Again, watch what is happening in the body.)
At the end of the twenty minutes compare the two ways in which the experience was labelled and answer the following four questions:
1. Is one truer than the other, and If so, which one?
2. What is here without labels?
3. Do labels affect the experience or just describe it?
4. Did you notice any differences in the body

1. The second one without an 'I' feels truer. For the first one, it feels that someone has been named as doer of the activity, when in reality the activities are happening by themselves
2. I am here without the label, not the egoic I but the I which can't be explained, defined.
3. Labels just brings a doer in picture when in reality there is none
4. In the first one, there was heaviness in the body, it felt like there was a compulsion on someone to do all those activities. In the second one, body was relaxing, it was in it's natural state and activities were happening by themselves, there was no compulsion on that someone to do something.

In this exercise there was another realization that thinking doesn't happen for present moment, it happens for a past or a future. So when thinking happens, present moment takes a back seat and visaversa

Regards
Seenam