Stop feeling bad and realizing the ultimate truth

[ratnapani]

Hi Seenam,
I am well, today is particularly peaceful.

From your two hopes it sounds like you would like a bit of peace! This inquiry will help steps in that direction but it's best to not have expectations as they can get in the way of just looking for what is and is not present in actual experience.

That is quite an impressive list of fears.
9 fears that begin with 'I' If you look 'under' fear what is there? Can you spot a me who has fears? Is there 'anything' there to see?
Steve. xx

[Search1207]

Happy new year Steve. Wish you another peace and happiness filled year :)

From your two hopes it sounds like you would like a bit of peace! This inquiry will help steps in that direction but it's best to not have expectations as they can get in the way of just looking for what is and is not present in actual experience.

Hmm. Having no expectations feels like removing some sort of burden from my head. But there is still a desire for the truth to be known/experienced

That is quite an impressive list of fears.
9 fears that begin with 'I' If you look 'under' fear what is there? Can you spot a me who has fears? Is there 'anything' there to see?

Yeah even I was impressed with the number of fears I came up with, they were not there on top of my mind. I really had to dig deep.

Upon looking under the fears one by one, I was unable to see anyone, there was nothing. However with a few fears, there was intense feeling underneath. When I tried to feel those feelings, they were suffocating and energy draining. They were so intense that I had to sleep after a point.
After getting up, I repeated the exercise again, there was nothing underneath any of the fears. Fears felt like open gates hanging in nothingness

It feels like I am very close to the truth but still not there

Regards
Seenam

[ratnapani]

Wishing you a peaceful new year too.

That is very impressive looking. To stay with the discomfort until you had to sleep and then come back to look again is most excellent!

Fears felt like open gates hanging in nothingnes

s

Great .

Let's try something a bit quieter.
Sit quietly for a while, being 'in' the body and letting thoughts settle. Hold both hands out in a comfortable way and be aware of them. Count to 3 and turn one hand over.

What decided which hand to turn?
Rinse and repeat.

Steve x

[Search1207]

Hi Steve,

Sorry for delay in reply. Past few days I was travelling. Also post fear watching exercise, there was stillness for sometime and then there was flood of thoughts but this time they were not as sticky. Also there was pain in my neck and shoulders for a day or two which has now subsided.

Let's try something a bit quieter.
Sit quietly for a while, being 'in' the body and letting thoughts settle. Hold both hands out in a comfortable way and be aware of them. Count to 3 and turn one hand over.

What decided which hand to turn?

I did this exercise, initially while counting till three, there were thoughts which wanted to decide which hand to turn over. On repeating this exercise, there was no one who decided which hand to turn over.

Regards
Seenam

[ratnapani]

Hi Seenam,
That's ok, Ive. missed a day too now.
That stillness is lovely isn't it? There will always tend be some thoughts but they don't have to 'hurt'. It sounds like they were compensating for the stillness!
' Not as sticky' is good, let them in the front door and let them out the back door, just don't invite them to stay for tea!

On repeating this exercise, there was no one who decided which hand to turn over.

Good, let's see if 'anyone' is thinking !


it quietly for about 20 minutes and notice the arising thoughts. Just let them appear as they appear. Try your best to COMPLETELY ignore what they are saying and just notice how they appear without you doing anything at all.

Where are they coming from and going to?

Did you do anything to make a particular thought or thoughts appear?

Could you have done anything to make a different thought appear at that exact moment instead?

Can you predict your next thought?

Can you select from a range of thoughts to have only pleasant thoughts?

Can you choose not to have painful, negative or fearful thoughts?

Can you pick and choose any kind of thought?

Is it possible to prevent a thought from appearing?

It seems that thought has some logical ordered appearance, but look carefully and just notice if there is an organised sequence? Or is that just another thought that says ‘these thoughts are in sequence’ or “they take content from previous thought”, or that ‘one thought follows another thought’?

Please take your time and answer each question.

Steve x

[Search1207]

Hi Steve

Hope you are doing well. Thanks for your reply

Not as sticky' is good, let them in the front door and let them out the back door, just don't invite them to stay for tea!

Yes, whenever there is involvement in thoughts, there is an awareness of involvement. As soon as there is awareness, I tell myself to let thoughts be.

it quietly for about 20 minutes and notice the arising thoughts. Just let them appear as they appear. Try your best to COMPLETELY ignore what they are saying and just notice how they appear without you doing anything at all.

Initially when I noticed how thoughts appear, there was complete stillness. Then there were thoughts about no thoughts being there, about forgetting what to write later on. I kept focusing on 'how' thoughts appear, in this process again and again there was diversion of awareness to the story that thoughts were saying, but I kept bringing focus back to 'how'. There was nothing to be found

Where are they coming from and going to?

Thoughts come from nothing, goes into nothing. It's our attention that makes them important. While watching this, there were a few moments when I had lost sense of where I am, it was sleep like state but I was not sleeping.

Did you do anything to make a particular thought or thoughts appear?

I didn't do anything to make a thought appear but it feels like it appeared because I had a similar thought in past so thought is just repeating itself. There were instances when mind was trying to remember instructions that's why thoughts were repeated. Also if I was thinking a particular thought, all other thoughts were around that initial thought

Could you have done anything to make a different thought appear at that exact moment instead?

It seems I have no control on which thought to appear, it's only after a thought has appeared a new thought appears afterwards cutting short the first thought.

Can you predict your next thought?

I couldn't predict the next thought, but I was able to create new thoughts ( or maybe we can call it create a story) around the initial thought.

Can you select from a range of thoughts to have only pleasant thoughts?

No, I wasn't able to do this. Infact when I thought of choosing pleasant thoughts, exact opposite happened - there were all unpleasant thoughts

Can you choose not to have painful, negative or fearful thoughts?

No, I wasn't able to do so. Infact there were painful, negative, fearful thoughts and sensations appearing when I tried not to have such thoughts.

Can you pick and choose any kind of thought?

I can create more thoughts on an initial thought, however I am not able to choose any particular kind of thought.

Is it possible to prevent a thought from appearing?

No, it's not possible

It seems that thought has some logical ordered appearance, but look carefully and just notice if there is an organised sequence? Or is that just another thought that says ‘these thoughts are in sequence’ or “they take content from previous thought”, or that ‘one thought follows another thought’?

On noticing if there is any sequence, there was none. Thoughts were popping up randomly

Regards
Seenam

[ratnapani]

Hi Seenam,
All is good here.

Well done, you were looking well at all the questions.

Thoughts come from nothing, goes into nothing. It's our attention that makes them important.

Nice. Is it just attention or is there a belief there ?

While watching this, there were a few moments when I had lost sense of where I am,

Do you know what 'stopped' when that happened?


A couple of follow up questions. Do thoughts think ?
Is there a 'thinker' anywhere in experience?

All the best, Steve.

[Search1207]

Hi Steve

Good to know you are keeping well.

Thoughts come from nothing, goes into nothing. It's our attention that makes them important.
Nice. Is it just attention or is there a belief there ?

While watching this, there were a few moments when I had lost sense of where I am,
Do you know what 'stopped' when that happened?

I think there are one answer to both the above questions. There was a search/focus on the thoughts which I had refered to as attention. It was when I stopped searching for thoughts, there was nothing at all.

A couple of follow up questions. Do thoughts think ?
Is there a 'thinker' anywhere in experience?

No, thoughts don't think, there are just follow up thoughts on the initial thought.

I have a question here , I am confused - thoughts don't think, thoughts don't come from anywhere, they don't go anywhere, there is nothing behind how thoughts are created, then what exactly are thoughts and why they are there ?

There is no thinker in the experience but there is someone/something involved in this web of thoughts. Who is it and why is it there

Instead of being clear about things, there is further unclarity

Regards
Seenam

[ratnapani]

Hi Seenam,

I think you are looking at this very well.

It was when I stopped searching for thoughts, there was nothing at all

.

When it all goes quiet it's nice isn't it ? It's also a chance to look without words, in words it would be..... 'me' ?

No, thoughts don't think,

Good.

what exactly are thoughts and why they are there ?

1. I don't know. (but I wouldn't be able to write this without some.)
2. Can you see what is there that needs to know this?

There is no thinker in the experience

Great. It's still worth trying to catch someone doing it though.

there is someone/something involved in this web of thoughts. Who is it and why is it there

There is a taste which I'd call a sense of self and it will continue for a while.
We are looking for a 'separate self', in there somewhere.
Something doing the thinking, moving the body, running the show.

You could look at the body as well.
Settle for a bit in quiet and then just walk across the room and back.
What moved the legs ? What turned the body? It's quite a complex set of moves, can you see anything doing it, anything giving the orders?

All the best,
Steve.

[ratnapani]

Hi Seenam,

It's gone very quiet again !
Posting every day to maintain the focus is recommended. Even 'Busy today, still looking' is a good idea.

All the best,
Steve

[Search1207]

Hi Steve

I am sorry for delay in reply. I was actually drafting reply when you posted :)

These days I am looking for a place to shift that's why I wasn't able to reply. But I agree i need to search everyday so that there is clarity.

Can you see what is there that needs to know this?

There is this voice in the background that says it needs to know the reason why thoughts are there if they arise from nothing, goes into nothing. I tried to bring this voice in front but I am unable to do so. This voice is observed though, but it can't be known what this voice is.

Great. It's still worth trying to catch someone doing it though.

Still can't find anyone

You could look at the body as well.
Settle for a bit in quiet and then just walk across the room and back.
What moved the legs ? What turned the body? It's quite a complex set of moves, can you see anything doing it, anything giving the orders?

No, i can't see anyone giving orders, anyone doing the moves. It is just happening.

Whenever I am answering your questions, there is a brief moment of stillness in the mind, however the thoughts keeping rushing back and there is a constant mental chatter in day to day routine. During that chatter, there is another thought which asks to look at how these thoughts are arising, where are they arising from and where they are going. There are times when there is a feeling that I need to cut off from usual daily life and completely focus on the non- separate self for the realisation to happen. This feel like further thoughts on top of my initial thought. The more closer I am to truth, the farther it feels.

Regards
Seenam

[ratnapani]

Hi Seenam,
we must be in some sort of psychic contact! I quite understand that looking for somewhere to live takes time and emotional energy.

That voice is a thought, you probably won't be able to bring a particular thought to the front, they do their own thing as you have noticed. You can 'drop' under thoughts and emotions and look, just look.

No, i can't see anyone giving orders, anyone doing the moves. It is just happening.

Good!

Looking in day to day routine is not so easy as doing an exercise quietly but it is a very good thing to do. In 'ordinary life' focus on sensations. Simply the pleasant or unpleasant sensation of thoughts occurring, is anyone making those sensations. The body responds to events and so there are sensations in the body, pleasant or unpleasant, do they belong to anyone?

I quite understand the desire to step back from routine so you have the space to look. You only need a little quiet to look but that needs to be a kind, curious quiet. Not holding thought off like an enemy but allowing whatever arises and passes.

There is no such 'thing' as truth for a you to be close to or far from !! There is nothing to grasp, you just have to look.

All the best,
Steve.
PS, I suggest you repeat whatever exercises you would like to whenever you can.

[Search1207]

Hi Steve

Agree, will make sure to have daily contact .

That voice is a thought, you probably won't be able to bring a particular thought to the front, they do their own thing as you have noticed. You can 'drop' under thoughts and emotions and look, just look.

Dropping/surrendering seems to work. This way looking is happening without the voice.

Looking in day to day routine is not so easy as doing an exercise quietly but it is a very good thing to do. In 'ordinary life' focus on sensations. Simply the pleasant or unpleasant sensation of thoughts occurring, is anyone making those sensations. The body responds to events and so there are sensations in the body, pleasant or unpleasant, do they belong to anyone?

No-one is making the sensations, they appear from nowhere however it feels sensations belong to 'me'

Regards
Seenam

[ratnapani]

Hi Seenam,

it feels sensations belong to 'me'

Can you find me?
Is there anything separate from experience having experience right now ?

Have a good look round, maybe in the head, behind the eyes or in the heart centre.

All the best,
Steve

[Search1207]

Hi Steve

Wish you a warm sunny day.

Can you find me?
Is there anything separate from experience having experience right now ?

Have a good look round, maybe in the head, behind the eyes or in the heart centre.

I couldn't see anyone named as 'me', however there was an intense feeling I felt at the heart center when I tried to keep looking at me. Couldn't see anyone but there was someone in the background and I wasn't able to bring it to the front. Tried dropping under this thought but was still able to feel someone/something

Regards
Seenam