Getting closer ...

[Chris1001]

Hi Vivien

I don’t know yet. It depends on the clarity of your seeing. We won’t stop until you feel comfortable to let this conversation go, and of course, until the self illusion is clearly seen.

Thank you. I appreciate you saying you'll stay with it until such time as I am comfortable to let it go. And I agree that I also...just don't know yet. I feel there could be more seeing required. But I want to slow things down a bit, in order that I don't rush replies just to 'get to the finish line', so to speak.

I want to reply to your previous questions after I've had a little time to really give them space. And I wonder if you still would require daily check-ins....or, knowing how committed I am to this, you might permit me at this point to take a few days in between responses, to really give the looking the space it needs. You have my word that I wouldn't just go AWOL - of that I can assure.

Chris

[Vivien]

Hi Chris,

you might permit me at this point to take a few days in between responses, to really give the looking the space it needs.

No problem. Write when you feel ready.

Have a nice day/evening,
Vivien

[Chris1001]

Thank you Vivien. And to you also...

[Chris1001]

Hi Vivien

Ok, I feel ready to tackle a couple of these questions today. There's a few more to come.
Apologies in advance, as I am unpacking all the speculative mess for you to look at (but you're asking me to unpack all this stuff, right?).

V; But how could any moment be the same as ‘other moments''? Doesn’t everything always new and fresh? Unfolding on its own spontaneously?
C; Yes, of course.
But it feels like this is coming from a place of speculation when I say "of course". It doesn't feel 'embodied' or visceral. Again....am I expecting states here?
V' What does ‘embodied’ or visceral would feel like? How do you imagine it?

I imagine there would be such a clear seeing as to result in the Absolute Knowing of the reality of Everything-unfolding-new-and-fresh-spontaneously all the time. That this fact would never be forgotten, and I'd be absolutely aware of it all day long. Like....I'd be seeing it all the time while I'm brushing my teeth or driving, or reading, or cooking some food. Somehow I'd be aware of it all completely 100%, whilst concentrating on all these other things, as well as watching thoughts/sensations and what they're up to....all at the same time! Sounds like a lot doesn't it? Sounds like I'd be very busy indeed.
It is as if I'm expecting to be some kind of God-like omniscient presence - aware of every single aspect of reality in every single moment. Pure seeing.
A state. An omniscient state.

The reality is, sometimes I'm looking/seeing....and then other times I'm busy doing everyday things....and then I'm thinking about some rubbish I saw on television last night...and then I'm worrying about the future or craving for the past. Caught up in a fairytale. And then I remember to Look/See for a while. And then I am caught up in imagination again.

So when I speak about embodied or visceral....maybe I am talking about perfection. And expecting that perfection to feel relaxing and expansive.

C; but when observing the 'outer world' I am subtly expecting states.
V; And what kind of state do you expect?
Please be as precise as you can.

As per the previous question. Omniscient, expansive, relaxing.

As I sit here, right now, looking...it's easy to see this all just imagination.
I look around the room. I notice something....a sensation perhaps....a subtle thought perhaps....trying to feel 'at one' with everything around me in the room. What is this? There's a part of me that is trying to feel 'At One' with everything around me...in a way that is forced.

I will share briefly a memory of a previous looking today, when I was out in nature (I have to do it from previous looking unfortunately because I can't take the computer out to the forest with me). Out in nature everything is very obviously moving, all the time. Birds flying, trees/leaves moving in the wind etc. And all the movement helped me to see that the non-separateness was in the Now. I also checked for location (inside/outside) and experienced consciousness as everything, without separation, in the Now. No separate me-plus-everything-else.
But it was only for a moment. And didn't result in a state.
Maybe this is as good as it gets...

Chris

[Vivien]

Hi Chris,

I will reply when you finished with the remaining questions.

Vivien

[Chris1001]

Hi Vivien

Thanks for your patience. I had lots of time to do repeated Lookings...and at the same time I've been able to reflect on things and integrate things more.

C: Initially, didn't find separation whilst 'mind' was inactive.
I noticed during the Looking...how it is 'mind' that then steps in and starts 'talking the language' of separation, i.e. words and sentences arising in the form of auditory thought (mental chatter) around the subject of separation.

V: When thoughts are quiet it’s easy to see. What happens when thoughts are talking? Is commentary running by itself? Or is there an ‘I’ talking?

Thoughts are running by themselves. There isn't a strong sense of an 'I' that's talking....but also there isn't any kind of efforting to somehow get rid of 'I'....or the habit of 'I'.

And is the commentary creating a real FELT separation, or just the illusion of it?

This was a great pointer, and it had impact during the repeated lookings over several days.

Right now, as I'm looking in this moment...there is very little resistance to any of it.
No pedantic need to clearly see/experience a 'Non Separation State'...or Non Separateness as an actual 'Thing'.
At the same time I am 'seeing' an absence of the illusion of separation (of course this is completely inadequate language to be utilising - apologies - one cannot see an absence!!). What I mean is there is less mental auditory thought process happening that is particularly fussed over whether there is even separation or not! I just kinda don't really care... (in a healthy positive way).
Flowing and easefulness in relation to things around me. An acceptance of 'What Is' without a efforting need to Look-Too-Hard.
Here I am. Objects around me in the room and there isn't a real strong sense of 'Me' and 'Them' (as the 'blinking' type sensations aren't present) and at the same time I'm not expecting anything to bring a strong sense of togetherness with the objects either. It's all just kinda fine, fine, fine. There's me and and there's the objects and we're all just kinda floating about together and it's all fine. Easeful...
A bit like Life In Soft Focus, as it were.

Is there an expectation to be in a state of constantly seeing no-separation?

There was before. But there isn't now.
You're pointing really helped with this....together with taking a little time-out/resting. Not obsessing with the investigation so much.

Everything feels fine and I'm not too worried about it being a state. A couple of days ago I had a real challenging situation with some friends and felt some really difficult feelings - pain, hurt etc. And I just stayed with the feelings and was accepting of What Is. The next day the feelings had passed and everything felt fine again. So I'm not clinging to states.

Chris

[Vivien]

Hi Chris,

There isn't a strong sense of an 'I' that's talking...

What is this “strong sense of an ‘I’ that is talking”? Is there actually something there what is talking?
And what is this “ talking strong sense of an ‘I’” is made of? How is it experienced?

Flowing and easefulness in relation to things around me.

Things around me? What does the word ‘me’ refer to in this sentence?

Here I am. Objects around me in the room and there isn't a real strong sense of 'Me' and 'Them'

How is ‘me’ and ‘them’ is experienced? Is it possible at all to experience a ‘me’ and ‘them’?

When you say "here I am" - what does the word 'I' point to in experience?
What is the 'I' that is here?
And where is it exactly?

and at the same time I'm not expecting anything to bring a strong sense of togetherness with the objects either.

It’s a quite common spiritual belief that somehow the body and other objects merge together, without being able to distinguish between the body and a chair and a tree. But this belief is based on a misinterpretation of the concept of non-separation. And this merge will never ever happen, and if it did that would be quite catastrophic. If it did, then you wouldn’t be able to distinguish between your mouth and the fork and the food on it. You wouldn’t be able to know which mouth put the food in. You wouldn’t even be able to eat or walk or do anything at all. This expectation has nothing to do with reality. The body will never merge or be one with other objects. Never. If it did, then it would be the result of brain damage.

Non-separation is about seeing that there the body is empty of a self. That there is nothing (no separate self) INSIDE the body, experiencing life through the body, and controlling, deciding, thinking, etc. That’s all.

Everything feels fine and I'm not too worried about it being a state. A couple of days ago I had a real challenging situation with some friends and felt some really difficult feelings - pain, hurt etc. And I just stayed with the feelings and was accepting of What Is. The next day the feelings had passed and everything felt fine again. So I'm not clinging to states.

Beautiful :)

Vivien

[Chris1001]

Hi Vivien

C: There isn't a strong sense of an 'I' that's talking...

V: What is this “strong sense of an ‘I’ that is talking”? Is there actually something there what is talking?
And what is this “ talking strong sense of an ‘I’” is made of? How is it experienced?

But if you read it again... I said "there isn't a strong sense of an 'I' that's talking"

C: Here I am. Objects around me in the room and there isn't a real strong sense of 'Me' and 'Them'

V; How is ‘me’ and ‘them’ is experienced? Is it possible at all to experience a ‘me’ and ‘them’?

(Same with this one....I said "there isn't a real strong sense of 'Me' and 'Them').
Anyway looking now...I see the words 'me' and 'them' pop up as thoughts (auditory), followed by a real small 'blink' sensation (the remnants of the old habit)...and now I see sensations clustering together to form an outline of the corner of the table in front of me in the room - a bit like when they would always cluster together to form the outline of my face/jaw, you remember? Previously, this would've given the illusion of separation (it's me over 'here' and the corner of the table 'over there')...but now this can be seen to be illusion brought about by mere sensations.

When you say "here I am" - what does the word 'I' point to in experience?
What is the 'I' that is here?
And where is it exactly?

So looking, now...it is just a thought. There's no location or subject. No 'here' and no 'I'. Just vibrations really. Flickering activity, in space (or spaciousness rather). The 'blinking' sensation isn't happening very often anymore and so spaciousness without subject or object can be more clearly perceived.

It’s a quite common spiritual belief that somehow the body and other objects merge together, without being able to distinguish between the body and a chair and a tree. But this belief is based on a misinterpretation of the concept of non-separation.

Yes, totally. I realise that now. Thanks to your pointers.
A real blind spot this one....for years. Am grateful to have finally seen thru' the bullsh*t.

Non-separation is about seeing that there the body is empty of a self. That there is nothing (no separate self) INSIDE the body, experiencing life through the body, and controlling, deciding, thinking, etc. That’s all.

Yes, it's beginning to make sense properly now....what it is and what it isn't.


Hugely grateful for your ongoing support Vivien. Am enjoying this 'final phase' of the investigation. Grounding-in and recapping etc.

Happy :)

Chris

[Vivien]

Hi Chris,

But if you read it again... I said "there isn't a strong sense of an 'I' that's talking"

Yes, you are right.

Hugely grateful for your ongoing support Vivien. Am enjoying this 'final phase' of the investigation. Grounding-in and recapping etc.

And I’m happy that you have come so far :)

Is there anything that doesn’t feel totally clear and you would like to look at?

Previously you wrote this:

I feel like I've seen a decent amount of the Illusion of separate self when it comes to observing the 'inner' world, but perhaps not so much when observing the 'outer' world. I found it much easier to witness what was going on in the world of thoughts and sensations, and I haven't had such clear 'seeings' when observing the 'outside' world. When looking at thought/sensations I don't expect any states....but when observing the 'outer world' I am subtly expecting states.

Is the above comment still stand? Is there still an expectation for having a state when observing the world? Or has it fallen away by realizing the the body cannot merge with a tree?

Vivien

[Chris1001]

Hi Vivien

Is the above comment still stand? Is there still an expectation for having a state when observing the world? Or has it fallen away by realizing the the body cannot merge with a tree?

It has fallen away. This was the clearest pointer:

And is the commentary creating a real FELT separation, or just the illusion of it?

With this pointer, it was like the penny dropped.

Is there anything that doesn’t feel totally clear and you would like to look at?

If it's okay I'd like to take a day or two and reflect on this, and get back to you.

Many thanks again :)

Chris

[Vivien]

Hi Chris,

With this pointer, it was like the penny dropped.

Great.

If it's okay I'd like to take a day or two and reflect on this, and get back to you.

Yes, of course.

Vivien

[Chris1001]

Hi Vivien

Is there anything that doesn’t feel totally clear and you would like to look at?

So, I've had a chance to reflect on this question and I don't really feel unclear about anything.
Every day I Look...at various times throughout the day. Again and again. Not obsessively. Just like a regular little habit that is now becoming a permanent fixture. It is quite gentle and doesn't involve too much trying/efforting. Often it is just for a brief moment or two.
There is still identification going on but there's an acceptance that this identification is like an old 'habit' and there isn't the need for it to stop.
I understand that this is just a first step.

Do you think I have gatecrashed the 'gateless gate', so to speak?

Chris

[Vivien]

Hi Chris,
I’m giving you a description of what usually happens at this state. So I’m going to ask you some more questions to see if there has been a shift from intellectual understanding to an experiential one. When your comments seem to be clear, I’m going to give you some ‘final questions’ which are always asked at the end of every conversation. Then I will ask other guides to read your replies to see if they can spot something that I might have missed. They might or might not have further questions. If there are no further questions, I will let you know and you will then be invited to the LU FB groups.

This thread will be moved to the archive section. But, in the future you can contact me at any time if you have any questions via private message here on the forum, or via Facebook if you decide to join our groups there.

Do you think I have gatecrashed the 'gateless gate', so to speak?

Is there I to awaken?
Is there a gateless gate to cross?

Can you say with a big fat YES that it’s clear the I, as a separate self is an illusion? Is there any doubt?

Are you 100% sure that self is imaginary, and is that understanding experiential, or rather intellectual?

Could you tell in details how it FELT when you realized that the self is just an illusion during the conversation?
How does it feel now, and how is life led?
Any differences from before starting this conversation?

Vivien

[Chris1001]

Hi Vivien

Thank you so, so much for getting me to this point. I am truly grateful, from the bottom of my heart :)

Is there I to awaken?

No, there isn't an I to awaken. It is just conceptual. The pronoun of 'I' still continues to be used though, for the purposes of communication and to operate in the world.

Is there a gateless gate to cross?

No, of course not :) It is just a concept. There is 'seeing' in-the-now-moment. Seeing takes place. And the more that seeing takes place, gradually this 'gateless gate' is crossed. It is just a way to describe a shift that's happening.

Can you say with a big fat YES that it’s clear the I, as a separate self is an illusion? Is there any doubt?

Yes it is clear that the 'I', as separate self is conceptual/illusory. There isn't any real lingering doubt. Doubts can arise, but they are quickly seen to be just thoughts and therefore just more illusion.

Are you 100% sure that self is imaginary, and is that understanding experiential, or rather intellectual?

I am sure, precisely because it is experiential. In the past I had an intellectual understanding of it, but now...the constant Looking and Seeing has brought about a shift, and thus it has become more and more experiential, and less intellectual (and there is less thought happening to actually intellectualise!).

Could you tell in details how it FELT when you realized that the self is just an illusion during the conversation?

There wasn't a particular big-moment. It has just been gradual, gradual, gradual...
In general, it has felt like relief. Less burdensome. More relaxed/positive.
I have noticed a lessening of thinking/obsessing. And an accompanying easefulness together with this.

How does it feel now, and how is life led?

Much the same as before, but with significantly less worrying about the future. There is more trust in life. The body has the same old bad habits as before (like eating too many chocolates)...but I'm not beating myself up about it.
There is regular Looking that takes place, rather than trying to intellectually figure everything out.

Any differences from before starting this conversation?

Yes. I think I have explained most of it in the previous answers. Not much more to say really. Right now...just here...looking. Present.
Before, I would've been watching endless youtube videos trying to figure out 'enlightenment' intellectually.

Chris

[Vivien]

Hi Chris,

Thank you so, so much for getting me to this point. I am truly grateful, from the bottom of my heart :)

You are most welcome :)

Thank you for your replies.

I would like to ask you to read one of your previous post (page 12, second post from the top).

Can you say that there was a shift from intellectual understanding to an experiential one at that day?

And how does it FEEL now to see that the self is just an illusion and not something factual?

Vivien