The truth doesn't need my belief to exist

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Jadzia
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Re: The truth doesn't need my belief to exist

Postby Jadzia » Tue Nov 26, 2019 2:44 pm

But THERE IS SOMETHING that experiences DE. A sense of self.
Is it a sense of self, or is it just what you have learned it is?
An image of a car came up, a white one.
Exactly. A lot more is added and before you can say "Balderdash" you are in a story.
Maybe it's more stuff coming to the surface.
Can happen.....
Wow what a question!
My first reaction after everything we have done so far is that there might be no difference.bill investigate further.
Sometimes first reactions are the best, lol.
But stay with it for a while.

Experiment to try:
Watch a clip on youtube or a film, something strongly emotional like this one:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o3wfTuyOOpA
ok it is sugar sweet.... ;-)
Watch it and allow yourself to enjoy it, go with the boy character, feel with it.

When the clip ends, breathe in and out.

Now play an emotional story in your head where you play the main role. You will go with the character, feel the story and so on.

When the clip ends, breathe in and out.

And now compare how it felt, the chrismas clip, the sidstrate clip.
What do you notice?

Love,
Jadzia

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Sidstrate
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Re: The truth doesn't need my belief to exist

Postby Sidstrate » Wed Nov 27, 2019 2:03 pm

But THERE IS SOMETHING that experiences DE. A sense of self.
Is it a sense of self, or is it just what you have learned it is?
It still really feels like a sense of me. I keep returning to it. But it disappears very fast.
It’s like a flash of light.
Imagine you could see part of my nervous system, I look for this sense of self & it’s like the nerves in my head, shoulders & neck light up bright white. A ping of self. A flash representing me. Guiding & directing. But the flash is fleeting. Then nothing. I know that this is not really a sense of self. But it pretends to be and still convinces me when I'm not looking.
Experiment to try:
Watch a clip on youtube or a film, something strongly emotional like this one:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o3wfTuyOOpA
ok it is sugar sweet.... ;-)
Watch it and allow yourself to enjoy it, go with the boy character, feel with it.

When the clip ends, breathe in and out.

Now play an emotional story in your head where you play the main role. You will go with the character, feel the story and so on.

When the clip ends, breathe in and out.
And now compare how it felt, the chrismas clip, the sidstrate clip.
What do you notice?

Cute
The feelings were more real when I was star of the movie. Despite me realising it is only a movie, me being the star made the feelings as real as everyday life. The feelings that stirred in me, were perhaps latent, kept locked away under a mask.
I feel a sense of the dramatic playing out my role!!!

Much Love

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Jadzia
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Re: The truth doesn't need my belief to exist

Postby Jadzia » Wed Nov 27, 2019 4:30 pm

It still really feels like a sense of me. I keep returning to it. But it disappears very fast.
It’s like a flash of light.
What exactly gives the information that what is noticed is a sense of self?
It is a thought, right?
Can it be something you learned that this is this and nothing else?
The feelings were more real when I was star of the movie. Despite me realising it is only a movie, me being the star made the feelings as real as everyday life.
Same here, where is the information coming from that the sidstrate film feels more real?

A lot we do here is de-conditioning....

Love,
Jadzia

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Sidstrate
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Re: The truth doesn't need my belief to exist

Postby Sidstrate » Thu Nov 28, 2019 11:29 am

It still really feels like a sense of me. I keep returning to it. But it disappears very fast.
It’s like a flash of light.
What exactly gives the information that what is noticed is a sense of self?
It is a thought, right?
Can it be something you learned that this is this and nothing else?
As soon as I read you response I knew! It’s only a sense of self because that’s what I have always thought. How could I even know a self! I have nothing to compare it to. I have no idea what a self is!!!
I have identified with a feeling & thought as self & stuck with it.
Just because it’s familiar doesn’t make it so!
For years I thought I knew the lyrics “Excuse me while I kiss this guy” from Jimi Hendrix’s ‘Purple Haze’. When the correct lyrics were in fact “Excuse me while I kiss the sky”
The familiarity convinced me it was true. Never to be questioned. Door closed through the illusion of knowing.
This question of ‘self’ is much deeper because there is no right answer.

But what I do know is that the answer I had up to now (The sense of self), was down to earlier assumptions, conditioning, repetition & familiarity of association. Not & never based on truth.
The feelings were more real when I was star of the movie. Despite me realising it is only a movie, me being the star made the feelings as real as everyday life.
Same here, where is the information coming from that the sidstrate film feels more real? A lot we do here is de-conditioning....
Why do I care about one character more than another?
A guy dies at the start of a movie. I am not moved.
Then the girl in the movie, who I had been watching for nearly 2 hours dies & I am emotionally moved, I am sad. Because I had become attached to the character, attached to the familiar. The familiar is a well trodden path, it has a story (thoughts), it has many mixed emotions, & many more thoughts of historical ups & downs, or journeys left & right.
This is why I felt more when I was the star of the movie. Not because I was anything more real, but because I am so much more familiar with my character, we have a lot of history. It’s been a role I have been intimate with for 44 years!!!!
So I don’t see the emotions as different but the attachment to the emotions creates more significant volumes.

Much love

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Jadzia
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Re: The truth doesn't need my belief to exist

Postby Jadzia » Thu Nov 28, 2019 3:55 pm

Beautiful answers!
It’s only a sense of self because that’s what I have always thought. How could I even know a self! I have nothing to compare it to. I have no idea what a self is!!!
Yes. You learn it the same way as you learn "ball". You are looking at a ball as toddler and loving parents will say "This is a ball! A ball is round, and this one is red". So you learn labels. Same with "This is my bread, and this is your porridge."
I have identified with a feeling & thought as self & stuck with it.
Yes. There are a lot of identifications happening.
Shortly describe the character sidstrate!

Real or assumptions, beliefs and identifications?
For years I thought I knew the lyrics “Excuse me while I kiss this guy” from Jimi Hendrix’s ‘Purple Haze’. When the correct lyrics were in fact “Excuse me while I kiss the sky”
Wonderful example.
This is why I felt more when I was the star of the movie. Not because I was anything more real, but because I am so much more familiar with my character, we have a lot of history. It’s been a role I have been intimate with for 44 years!!!!
:-), follow a Tv series over several seasons - the people get soooooo real.
So I don’t see the emotions as different but the attachment to the emotions creates more significant volumes.
Here is something to look at: What are emotions?
There is a sensation + thoughts, right? Do you find something else?
How is it known that a sensation is for example fear?

Love,
Jadzia

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Sidstrate
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Re: The truth doesn't need my belief to exist

Postby Sidstrate » Fri Nov 29, 2019 10:09 am

Shortly describe the character sidstrate! Real or assumptions, beliefs and identifications?
Sidstrate has some beliefs...
around freedom & fairness that are difficult to define.
That life is a game

Sidstrate is ultimately selfish & self serving (as everybody is). He is constantly asking “What’s in it for me? Or “How does this effect me?” He can be greedy & compulsive, irrational & unaccountable. He wants to be a better person but he also wants to self sabotage.

Despite living in Australia for 12 years, & despite letting go of many illusory attachments, there is still an identification with him being from the working class, North West of England.
He also identifies as a husband, a dad; responsible, independent, free thinking, a rebel, an outsider, a thinker, talented, confident, fun, a philosopher & a brave spiritual adventurer!
:-), follow a Tv series over several seasons - the people get soooooo real.
Yes, I see this clearly. Many heartbreaking & sometimes exhilarating seasons with this show!
Here is something to look at: What are emotions?
There is a sensation + thoughts, right? Do you find something else?
How is it known that a sensation is for example fear?
Another great question. I often wondered many years ago how I knew I had heartburn. People said it was heartburn but how could I know what I was feeling was what they were talking about?

I look deeper & the label (of whichever emotion is present) doesn’t last long.
There are many things going on, heart rate changes, hot & cold, nervous system, itches, muscles tweaks, pulsing, thoughts,
Then going deeper again, vibration. A vibration in one or many areas, reverberations around the body. Up and down in intensity.
Then going deeper, it appears as energy. The energy seems to transcend the actual body & flows in & around all of my awareness.

How do I know it's fear. I'm recognising familiar patterns. I'm sold on the first label presented. Interesting...

OK
I am going on a trip with long hours in the car for the next couple of days. I might not be able to respond until Monday.

Much Love.

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Jadzia
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Re: The truth doesn't need my belief to exist

Postby Jadzia » Fri Nov 29, 2019 3:43 pm

Sidstrate has some beliefs...
around freedom & fairness that are difficult to define.
That life is a game
Sidstrate is ultimately selfish & self serving (as everybody is). He is constantly asking “What’s in it for me? Or “How does this effect me?” He can be greedy & compulsive, irrational & unaccountable. He wants to be a better person but he also wants to self sabotage.
Despite living in Australia for 12 years, & despite letting go of many illusory attachments, there is still an identification with him being from the working class, North West of England.
He also identifies as a husband, a dad; responsible, independent, free thinking, a rebel, an outsider, a thinker, talented, confident, fun, a philosopher & a brave spiritual adventurer!
Would you find anything of this in DE?

Lets say all is found in thoughts, in a script, though a wonderful and catching one - can you be in any way sure that this is real or true?
Does it need to be real or true? How would you feel if it isn't?
How do I know it's fear. I'm recognising familiar patterns. I'm sold on the first label presented. Interesting...
Who or what recognizes a pattern. Who or what is sold on the first label.
Look closely, thoughts are very self referencing.
And do the suggestions for labels always make sense?

Ok, next time an emotion comes up. Thougth tells "This is anger, or irritation, or whatever"
Check if there is a sensation.
Does the sensation know about the emotion? Does it know it is the emotion?
Does the label anger, or irritation, or whatever know anything about anger, irritation or whatever?
Does the feeling called anger, irritation or whateverknow anything about anger, irritation or whatever?

Answer when there is time.

Love,
Jadzia

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Sidstrate
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Re: The truth doesn't need my belief to exist

Postby Sidstrate » Tue Dec 03, 2019 1:07 am

Sidstrate has some beliefs...
around freedom & fairness that are difficult to define.
That life is a game
Sidstrate is ultimately selfish & self serving (as everybody is). He is constantly asking “What’s in it for me? Or “How does this effect me?” He can be greedy & compulsive, irrational & unaccountable. He wants to be a better person but he also wants to self sabotage.
Despite living in Australia for 12 years, & despite letting go of many illusory attachments, there is still an identification with him being from the working class, North West of England.
He also identifies as a husband, a dad; responsible, independent, free thinking, a rebel, an outsider, a thinker, talented, confident, fun, a philosopher & a brave spiritual adventurer!
Would you find anything of this in DE?
With DE I cannot find any of this.
Lets say all is found in thoughts, in a script, though a wonderful and catching one - can you be in any way sure that this is real or true?
I can’t be sure
Does it need to be real or true? How would you feel if it isn't?
At different times I have experienced both fear & relief in response to this question

But it doesn’t need to be true.
This question exposes my attachments
How do I know it's fear. I'm recognising familiar patterns. I'm sold on the first label presented. Interesting...
Who or what recognizes a pattern. Who or what is sold on the first label.
Look closely, thoughts are very self referencing.
And do the suggestions for labels always make sense?
There is an awareness that is coming from a certain 'self' shaped' perspective.
There are attachments (through thoughts & familiar sensations) to an illusory sense of self.
This is what is being confused with the ‘who’ that is recognising the patterns.

Sometimes the labels can calm as they attempt to justify and control.
Other times the labels can inflame with unnecessary justifications.

The labels often do not make sense.
And then when they appear to make sense, they only do at a certain shallow level.
Ultimately the labels are there to validate how I am feeling.

Ok, next time an emotion comes up. Thougth tells "This is anger, or irritation, or whatever"
Check if there is a sensation.
yes
Does the sensation know about the emotion? Does it know it is the emotion?
There is sensation & the emotion risers from the sensation
Does the label anger, or irritation, or whatever know anything about anger, irritation or whatever?
No
A label is a short word that cannot begin to describe the complex activity.
The label doesn’t know. It’s a habitual reaction to make sense of situations after they have happened.
Does the feeling called anger, irritation or whateverknow anything about anger, irritation or whatever?
It knows nothing. It just is. There is nothing that expresses. It is just expressing.
Answer when there is time.
Thank you

These 3 days off have allowed things to settle & other things to come up.
I experienced a very tangible & present fear of death. Over the last few years I have considered & looked at my own death in a number of ways. But this time felt much more real.

I felt a deep acknowledgement of my own mortality. I felt what it is to look at death face on. It was very scary at first, but then it was OK. There was disbelief that I was going to die. There was shock that this was inevitable. There was surprise that I had not really faced this in such a visceral and tangible way, like this before.

This encounter with my own death was intimate & it is still with me now two days later. It is OK.

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Jadzia
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Re: The truth doesn't need my belief to exist

Postby Jadzia » Tue Dec 03, 2019 2:23 pm

So you found that nothing the story is about can be found in DE. This is enormous, isn't it?
At different times I have experienced both fear & relief in response to this question
Yes, it can be both. Ultimatively it is the death of the self. The self as in an actual entity, separated from everything else.
I felt a deep acknowledgement of my own mortality. I felt what it is to look at death face on. It was very scary at first, but then it was OK. There was disbelief that I was going to die. There was shock that this was inevitable. There was surprise that I had not really faced this in such a visceral and tangible way, like this before.
What dies? What can you find in DE that dies?

I am not saying that there is no death, same here as with the self. It is neither right or wrong to say there is a self and it isn't neither right or wrong to say there isn't. There is a self and there isn't. There is death and there isn't.

Ponder this first and then we will go back to emotion and something called cause and effect.

Love,
Jadzia

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Sidstrate
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Re: The truth doesn't need my belief to exist

Postby Sidstrate » Wed Dec 04, 2019 1:20 pm

What dies? What can you find in DE that dies?
I couldn’t really get this. I could determine anything that would or wouldn’t die.
I tried a few times, I struggled to concentrate.
I am not saying that there is no death, same here as with the self. It is neither right or wrong to say there is a self and it isn't neither right or wrong to say there isn't. There is a self and there isn't. There is death and there isn't.

Ponder this first and then we will go back to emotion and something called cause and effect.
I pondered this for a while & didn’t really get anywhere.

Much love

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Jadzia
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Re: The truth doesn't need my belief to exist

Postby Jadzia » Wed Dec 04, 2019 4:25 pm

Lets have a look together.
Story goes there is a body that dies.
Can you find body in DE?
If not whatdoes this tell?

Self or no self. There is no self as it is thought to be: decider, arranger, thinker, doer and so on. Up to now you couldn't find a self in DE, right?
Where is a self found? In thoughts, in the story
So both is right or? Self and no self.


Let this rest for a moment, it will be clear one day.

Is there cause and effect?

Love,
Jadzia

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Sidstrate
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Re: The truth doesn't need my belief to exist

Postby Sidstrate » Thu Dec 05, 2019 1:23 pm

Lets have a look together.
Story goes there is a body that dies.
Can you find body in DE?
If not what does this tell?
I cannot define where my body starts & ends. In fact, there is no body.
Breathing is a bit more challenging to observe in DE. I have a visceral experience of breathing, I can imagin stopping breathing & dying.

Self or no self. There is no self as it is thought to be: decider, arranger, thinker, doer and so on. Up to now you couldn't find a self in DE, right?
Right, I have found no self. There is awareness. But my awareness still seems to have a ‘personal’ quality. I continue with this in DE.
Where is a self found? In thoughts, in the story
So both is right or? Self and no self.
Like a movie character. It doesn’t exist, but of course it exist because people know about it.
Let this rest for a moment, it will be clear one day.
Yes, thank you.

Is there cause and effect?
I’ve tried to see that there is no cause & effect but I have to admit, I live in a world of cause & effect.
Even in DE, if I get hit by a car, the effect is damage.
There can be triggers for emotional response.
If I continue to do this work with you, then the effect may be that I realise there is no self!!

Much love

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Jadzia
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Re: The truth doesn't need my belief to exist

Postby Jadzia » Thu Dec 05, 2019 5:34 pm

I have a visceral experience of breathing, I can imagin stopping breathing & dying.
There is a sensation called breathing.
Imagining is nothing but thought, or?
But my awareness still seems to have a ‘personal’ quality.
For a personal quality there is a person needed.
There is a point of view, yes, at least it looks like it, but is it personal.
Like a movie character. It doesn’t exist, but of course it exist because people know about it.
Yes it is part of the story now, in thoughts.
If I continue to do this work with you, then the effect may be that I realise there is no self!!
Shocking!!!!!
But how do you know it has something to do with the work here?
Anything found in DE or only in thought?

Love,
Jadzia

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Sidstrate
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Re: The truth doesn't need my belief to exist

Postby Sidstrate » Fri Dec 06, 2019 2:21 pm

I have a visceral experience of breathing, I can imagin stopping breathing & dying.
There is a sensation called breathing.
Imagining is nothing but thought, or?
Yes, I see the error. However, it is difficult for me to just observe breathing in DE because it’s so intimate. The breath is so closely entwined with me, as I pull breath I feel survival, life. I observe the in & out as breath coming in & out, not as sensations. I will continue to observe & try to see this in DE.
But my awareness still seems to have a ‘personal’ quality.
For a personal quality there is a person needed.
There is a point of view, yes, at least it looks like it, but is it personal.
Yes, there is a personal quality for me at the moment. A personal quality that takes me left when others might go right. That bangs my head against a wall when others avoid. A personal quality that leads me to this examination when others are down the pub.

This process with you feels like going round in cycles. But each revolution I pick up another small clue. Then I come back to the beginning. My perceptions sometimes contradict what I have learned & seen so far.
Like a movie character. It doesn’t exist, but of course it exist because people know about it.
Yes it is part of the story now, in thoughts.
This is clear for me.
If I continue to do this work with you, then the effect may be that I realise there is no self!!
Shocking!!!!!
But how do you know it has something to do with the work here?
Anything found in DE or only in thought?
My mind was resisting this concept. It was fully convinced of cause & effect. But with a bit of thinking, I have managed to come to terms with no cause & effect. - From the (my) mind’s point of view. Logically, cause & effect no longer makes sense to me because of the first cause - how can there be an initial cause?

From nothing, what was the first cause that spilled out the domino of effects & subsequent causes? This is a mind trap. Cause & effect is an impossibility. There cannot be the initial cause. At least from my mind’s point of view.

This is good for this investigation because my mind is now put at rest with this logic, now for DE.

Cause and Effect with DE
With DE, there is only sensations, sights, sounds, smells & thoughts.
What is awareness? Is it all of these things? Does awareness sit the senses?

I experience, I just be. I observe the thought that I am sat here. I am not sat here, that is a story. I continue DE.
It’s so hard to escape the cause & effect thought.
I’m sitting here & my thoughts are saying - if someone comes in the room now they will disturb this investigation, they will cause an effect - Cause & effect!

I return to the DE.
Things just happen.

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Jadzia
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Re: The truth doesn't need my belief to exist

Postby Jadzia » Fri Dec 06, 2019 3:33 pm

This shift from falling for the story and for a moment realizing life just happens, everything just happens, is there a need for a reason outside of thought, will stay for a longer while.
As you saw mind loves being fed and it wants to participate, but it isn't really helping.

For you to finally leave the going in circles behind is really checking what is here, right now in this moment in the direct experience. It is seeing the story for a story, made up to keep up safety.

Breathing is a good example. What makes it intimate? Can you find something, a connection which makes it intimate? Or is there just a thought 'telling' so?
Observe breathing? Is an action needed for breathing? Or does it just happen? Allow all thoughts which appear around the breathing. Check each thoughts content, does it point to something in DE or to another thought?

Again share what you find.

Love,
Jadzia


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