Getting closer ...

[Vivien]

Hi Chris,

So....there is further and deeper to go then is there?

Of course, we are not finished yet.

V: How do the ‘vibrations of energy’ is experienced?
As a thoughts? Sensation? Sound? Imagination? Taste? Smell? Visual image?

C: Body sensations

Can you see that ‘vibration of energy’ is nothing else than a sensation?
And only thoughts label that sensation as ‘vibration of energy’?

No, in direct experience I cannot find a thinker.

And in non-direct experience, can you find a thinker?

Can you ever find a thinker of thoughts regardless of circumstances?

Please, don’t just think through these questions, rather LOOK.

Do you have doubts about a thinker?

Vivien

[Chris1001]

Hi Vivien

Can you see that ‘vibration of energy’ is nothing else than a sensation?
And only thoughts label that sensation as ‘vibration of energy’?

Yes, I can see that.

And in non-direct experience, can you find a thinker?

Can you ever find a thinker of thoughts regardless of circumstances?

Please, don’t just think through these questions, rather LOOK.

Do you have doubts about a thinker?

When I look at the mental activity during meditation, when 'the mind' is relatively quiet, there are very quiet, subtle thoughts coming and going, coming and going, coming and going. Faster than 'I' could ever control them.
They're bubbling away beneath the surface - like subconscious mental activity.
(I realise the way I'm phrasing this might sound like some conceptualisation along with speculation - but the observing of this subtle but rapid 'chatter' is evidence thru' looking, for sure. And it points to thinking without a thinker).

I realise I'm answering this by thinking it through (but you did say "in non-direct experience, can you find a thinker"?!)

Ok. Right now, in this moment...as I turn and look inward, I see thoughts, and words which label the thinking process (which are also thoughts). But no thinker.

I can't find a thinker of thoughts outside of thoughts that speak of one (this is the clearest pointer).

Do I have doubts about a thinker? When I look at doubts forming - I see that they too are just thoughts.

Thoughts...thoughts...but no thinker.

Chris

[Vivien]

Hi Chris,

Thoughts...thoughts...but no thinker.

Great!

Is life something you do or something that is happening?

What is not happening on automatic?

Vivien

[Chris1001]

Hi Vivien,

Is life something you do or something that is happening?

What is not happening on automatic?

Right now, my hand picks up the vape pen and puts it to my mouth and vapes. Automatically.

Then, I consciously think the thought: "I am going to take a sip of water". Then I take a sip. It seems like a 'doer' has done this.

But then I take a second sip, without having seemingly made 'a decision' to do so.

So...it's confusing.

Chris

[Vivien]

Hi Chris,

Then, I consciously think the thought: "I am going to take a sip of water". Then I take a sip. It seems like a 'doer' has done this.
But then I take a second sip, without having seemingly made 'a decision' to do so.
So...it's confusing.

OK. Let’s investigate this ‘conscious thinking’.

You said that there is no thinker of thoughts.

So then how do you consciously think a thought?

Are you the thinker?

What is thinking consciously?

Is there such thing as ‘consciously thinking a thought’?

Vivien

[Chris1001]

Hi Vivien,

You said that there is no thinker of thoughts.

So then how do you consciously think a thought?

Are you the thinker?

What is thinking consciously?

Is there such thing as ‘consciously thinking a thought’?

Of course i understand that if there is no thinker then there cannot be a conscious decision maker....but this is using logic to answer the question. So then, isn't that using thought construct (rather than looking) to answer the question?

So aren't you asking me to speculate?

I cannot be the thinker if there is no thinker.

So there can't be anything thinking consciously.

But there was a difference between the vaping and the sipping of water in my 'looking experiment', wasn't there? How do you explain that?

Chris

[Vivien]

Hi Chris,

I don’t ask you to speculate at all! It’s very important to put aside ALL speculation.

I just confronted you with your beliefs.
If you really looked and your answer that there is no thinker came from actually looking at experience, then there is a clash between your beliefs and what can be seen in your experience.

I NEVER ask you to speculate. That’s utterly useless.

With EVERY SINGLE questions I give you, I ask you to LOOK at EXPERIENCE and reply based on what you can actually SEE.

So please go back to those question, and this time ACTUALLY LOOK.

Vivien

[Chris1001]

Hi Vivien

I just confronted you with your beliefs.
If you really looked and your answer that there is no thinker came from actually looking at experience, then there is a clash between your beliefs and what can be seen in your experience.

So...the answer that there is no thinker has indeed come from looking.

So there must be a belief that says "but...there MUST be something doing the doing!!"

And it's hard to 'see' that belief....as it's so hardwired. Quietly running in the background, as it were. Kind of 'underpinning everything' so to speak.

I think it might help me though, if you could give me your response to this question I posed before (giving you full permission to speculate here :) ):

But there was a difference between the vaping and the sipping of water in my 'looking experiment', wasn't there? How do you explain that?

Okay, okay....
one more try, in realtime now:
'Mind' says "So then, how do you consciously think a thought?"
I notice afterwards, that thought/mind has just run this script all on its own. I scrolled down to the previous post, looked at the question and....before I knew it, 'mind' had just read it out silently in my mind, all by itself.

That was quite a vigilant looking I did there.

Consciousness is trying to wake-up to itself? (speculation/prior teachings - sorry!)

Chris

[Vivien]

Hi Chris,

You might not see it, but you are trying to avoid looking. And it’s my job to point this out to you.

I won’t comment on your posts until you reply to all the questions I asked you (from looking at experience and not from speculating), otherwise we get totally side tracked.

Vivien

[Chris1001]

Hi Vivien,

I'll go through them one by one, as if I were that 8 year old:

You said that there is no thinker of thoughts.

So then how do you consciously think a thought?

As I look...they're running automatically.

Are you the thinker?

I cannot be....if they are running automatically.

What is thinking consciously?

There is no 'thing' that is thinking consciously.

Is there such thing as ‘consciously thinking a thought’?

No, because they are running automatically.

Chris

[Vivien]

Is it totally clear, without any doubt or hesitation that thoughts are running automatically?

[Chris1001]

Hi Vivien

Nope - still seems to be some lingering doubt.

Chris

[Vivien]

Hi Chris,

OK, let’s dig a bit deeper :)

Please try to ‘intentionally’ think of a 2-digit number. After, investigate:

Why did you choose that number?
Why not the previous number, or the next one? Do you know?
If not, why don’t you know?

If you are the thinker of thoughts, then you must know EXACTLY how you create them.

So how did you create the thought of the number you choose?

Repeat the experiment at least 10 times (or more) before replying.

Vivien

[Chris1001]

Hi Vivien

Why did you choose that number?

It appeared in 'mind'....and then it just kinda felt right.

Why not the previous number, or the next one? Do you know?

That was the one that appeared. It was like 'mind' landed upon it...then there was briefly the sense of a movement away from it to try and find a different number...but something said "no, that's the one".
(I feel like there are less conceptual words that could've been used here...but right now this is the only way I could find to describe it).

If not, why don’t you know?

All I know is that it appeared and 'something' seemed to be dead-set that that was gonna be the number, and not a different number.

If you are the thinker of thoughts, then you must know EXACTLY how you create them.

Good point

So how did you create the thought of the number you choose?

All I can say is that 'something' created it. I cannot say that it was 'me' that created it.


*In later attempts at the experiment, for a while there did seem to be some sort of basic pattern that emerged in the numbers that the 'something' chose.
This could be more speculation tho'.

I'm noticing that a fear comes up every time there is speculation...
It feels like I 'should' be keeping speculations a secret, and not telling you - for fear they might piss you off (eek!)
Just trying to be honest about this, for the sake of being open and transparent.

Chris

[Vivien]

Hi Chris,

I'm noticing that a fear comes up every time there is speculation...
It feels like I 'should' be keeping speculations a secret, and not telling you - for fear they might piss you off (eek!)
Just trying to be honest about this, for the sake of being open and transparent.

Thank you for your honesty. I know that speculation is going on, it happens with almost everybody. So it’s not about keeping it a secret from me, but rather not to take those speculative thoughts too seriously. And when you notice that speculation is happening (since it will happen) then just stop, and go back to looking.

If your comments are about speculation, then I have to point that out for you, since speculations are dead ends. So it’s not about me getting pissed off :) it’s about divert your attention back to the direction which is fruitful and not let you wander on a dead end road.

All I can say is that 'something' created it. I cannot say that it was 'me' that created it.

I would like to ask you to repeat the exercise several times again, but this time look for that ‘something’ that is creating the number/thought. Watch like a hawk!

And please describe me that creator (that something).
Where is its location?
How does it look like? How big it is? What shape it has? Does it have a texture? Color?
Does it make a sound? What sound? Does it have a smell?

Tell me anything you discover about that something/creator of thoughts.

Vivien