Getting closer ...

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Chris1001
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Re: Getting closer ...

Postby Chris1001 » Mon Oct 21, 2019 1:35 am

Hi Vivien,
So for this reason, I would like to ask you to NEVER rely on the MEMORY of a previous looking, but always look AFRESH again and again with each questions I give you. Can we agree on this?
This is hard to do. But I'm trying my best with it. Will continue to try my best.

Haven't been able to do any investigation tonight tho' Vivien (its night time over here in the UK).
I've just been in so much grief, over my Mum's passing. Tears upon tears.
Endless tears...I'm absolutely heartbroken.
I really want to continue investigation, but right now I'm literally trembling in my body.
Maybe I'll be in the right space to do some later tonight (I stay up late usually), or tomorrow.
Either way, I'll check-in with you at least once a day.

Best,

Chris

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Vivien
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Re: Getting closer ...

Postby Vivien » Mon Oct 21, 2019 2:56 am

Hi Chris,
I really want to continue investigation, but right now I'm literally trembling in my body.
If you feel ready, you can search for the ‘me’ who is in grief.
Maybe I'll be in the right space to do some later tonight (I stay up late usually), or tomorrow.
Either way, I'll check-in with you at least once a day.
Yes, please check in every day.

Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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Chris1001
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Re: Getting closer ...

Postby Chris1001 » Mon Oct 21, 2019 11:09 pm

Hi Vivien,

Picking up on the investigation from two nights ago that I didn't get the chance to finish:
So what is the mind then?

Is there mind outside of words that speak of one?
Is there mind independent of thoughts that are imagined to come from 'a mind'?
One cannot say what mind is, as there doesn't seem to be an actual thing called 'mind'.
No there doesn't seem to be 'mind' outside of words that speak of one, nor thoughts that imagine one.
Please sit on a chair doing nothing for a few minutes. Watch the thoughts coming and going.
Can you trace a thought back to where it came?
In the same way, can you follow a thought to its destination?
Can you tell where thoughts come from and go to, without using any imagination or speculation?
From observation they seem to come from nowhere and go to nowhere.
(From another perspective, they can also seem to come from the previous thought and lead to the next thought, but that may be more conceptual - it feels truer to just say: nowhere).
Certainly in terms of location or anything like that - it is nowhere.
But aren’t you the thinker of thoughts?
It seems not.
It appears that there isn't really a thinker so to speak, that's doing the thinking.
There isn't really a thinker that's thinking the thoughts.

Having a little bit of resistance coming up now, which I wanted to share in line with honesty/transparency.
I think it's to do with disappointment in relation to expectations. I know I said I didn't have huge expectations, but maybe I did have some after all. I keep thinking "oh, so that's it then....I see it now. I get it. Is that it? Is that all there is to it??"
It reminds me of that saying "it's not what it looked like in the brochure".

Soberingly ordinary...

Chris

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Vivien
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Re: Getting closer ...

Postby Vivien » Mon Oct 21, 2019 11:47 pm

Hi Chris,
No there doesn't seem to be 'mind' outside of words that speak of one, nor thoughts that imagine one.
With the word ‘seem’ leaves some change for doubt. Can you be more certain?
Is there a mind outside of words that speak of one, or not?
(From another perspective, they can also seem to come from the previous thought and lead to the next thought, but that may be more conceptual - it feels truer to just say: nowhere).
Yes, this is conceptual. You have to stay with the experiential facts, as you did nicely.
It seems not.
It appears that there isn't really a thinker so to speak, that's doing the thinking.
There isn't really a thinker that's thinking the thoughts.
Again, with the word ‘seems’, is there some hesitation? Can you be more certain?
Is there a thinker or not?
Having a little bit of resistance coming up now, which I wanted to share in line with honesty/transparency.
I think it's to do with disappointment in relation to expectations. I know I said I didn't have huge expectations, but maybe I did have some after all. I keep thinking "oh, so that's it then....I see it now. I get it. Is that it? Is that all there is to it??"
It reminds me of that saying "it's not what it looked like in the brochure".
I’ve found it funny: it’s not what it looked like in the brochure :) Yes, the advertisements are not really telling a true story.

So what is it that you have discovered by looking at experience?

Please point with your finger (literally) to the ‘I’ who is disappointed.
Where do you point at?


Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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Chris1001
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Re: Getting closer ...

Postby Chris1001 » Tue Oct 22, 2019 12:25 am

Hi Vivien,
With the word ‘seem’ leaves some change for doubt. Can you be more certain?
Is there a mind outside of words that speak of one, or not?
It's really tempting to say "there's definitively no mind outside of words that speak of one - absolutely none/nothing/zero".
But there's some resistance to saying this. It's like I would be just going along with what you want me to say, without being necessarily fully convinced.

I mean, there are vibrations of energy going on there, for sure. Can they be said to be 'mind'?

I guess I must be conceptualising again...
Again, with the word ‘seems’, is there some hesitation? Can you be more certain?
Is there a thinker or not?
I am looking for a 'thinker' that thinks right now, and I am noticing that I'm trying to think my way to an answer.

I guess there must be some resistance again. It's not huge though.
I don't feel huge resistance in the body....but it could be subtle resistance. I did have a day off....I wonder if I lost my stride.

Sorry about this.
So what is it that you have discovered by looking at experience?
That there's not much there to look at...outside of the physical world.
Its almost like I'm losing interest, as there's not much to look at.
Please point with your finger (literally) to the ‘I’ who is disappointed.
Where do you point at?
The chest.

Chris

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Vivien
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Re: Getting closer ...

Postby Vivien » Tue Oct 22, 2019 12:39 am

Hi Chris,
It's really tempting to say "there's definitively no mind outside of words that speak of one - absolutely none/nothing/zero".
But there's some resistance to saying this. It's like I would be just going along with what you want me to say, without being necessarily fully convinced.
That’s good. Please never take my word for granted. Never believe my words :) You always have to check your experience to see if it’s true in reality (experience).
That there's not much there to look at...outside of the physical world.
Its almost like I'm losing interest, as there's not much to look at.
This could be a sign that there might be a fear lurking in the background.
You had a glimpse into reality. You’ve started to SEE. And now maybe there is a background story about not looking there again?

What would happen if it turned out that there is no thinker of thoughts?

Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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Chris1001
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Re: Getting closer ...

Postby Chris1001 » Tue Oct 22, 2019 1:26 am

Hi Vivien
That’s good. Please never take my word for granted. Never believe my words :) You always have to check your experience to see if it’s true in reality (experience).
Thank you. There's definitely a fear-of-being-brainwashed thing going on. Subtly...
I'm actually quite reassured that its not really overwhelming.
This could be a sign that there might be a fear lurking in the background.
You had a glimpse into reality. You’ve started to SEE.
Yes. I really appreciate this answer.
I've definitely had a glimpse into reality. And it's been happening ever since I first stumbled upon LU over a month ago.
I've glimpsed further since starting to work with you, of course. Largely through the understanding that it's more about repetitive 'seeing' than it is about having huge openings/insights. That in itself has been a real eye-opener.
background story about not looking there again?
So, subtle background stories then....Let's see whats coming up:
A fear perhaps...that if I see 'too much' (whatever that means) then I might not be able to 'unsee' it again, and if that were to lead to changes in my personality, then I wouldn't be able to unchange them.
Another subtle fear I am noticing is a fear that... I won't be able to do this. I'll fail. I won't be able to 'see' as clearly as you need me to see and we'll be going round and round forever in this thread. We'd be lost..

And 'I' would be lost...(I see the irony of this).

My sacred, loveable, protected little 'me' being under threat...of annihilation.

But still I keep looking and looking. It's becoming a habit.
And there doesn't seem to be anything there to find. How boring!!
So....a fear of boredom as well perhaps?

There's a sense that I might be hitting up against quite deep-seated, core level resistances here. The last vestiges of the ego, as it were. And I can't quite 'see' them (and it seems like 'me' doesn't want to see them in any case).

Maybe it just takes a little getting used to. And continued looking...

I am doing my best. But there's definitely blocks today. It's strange.
It's not really scary or terrifying...just strange.

Chris

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Chris1001
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Re: Getting closer ...

Postby Chris1001 » Tue Oct 22, 2019 1:29 am

What would happen if it turned out that there is no thinker of thoughts?
Sorry...forgot to quote this bit but its basically all the stuff I alluded to in the previous reply.

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Re: Getting closer ...

Postby Chris1001 » Tue Oct 22, 2019 1:31 am

What would happen if it turned out that there is no thinker of thoughts?
Maybe you shouldn't let me get away with this.
Am I avoiding looking at this question??

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Vivien
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Re: Getting closer ...

Postby Vivien » Tue Oct 22, 2019 3:02 am

Hi Chris,
Thank you. There's definitely a fear-of-being-brainwashed thing going on. Subtly...
What we do here is quite the opposite of brainwashing :)

That’s something we certainly have to avoid, since brainwashing wouldn’t help you at all.
Brainwashing happens only intellectually, so it would be just a new belief taken on.
And this doesn’t work that way. It’s not about having a new belief.
It would be utterly useless to replace the belief in the self into a new belief of no-self.
Actually some people gets into this trap, and it’s my job to get them out of their own brainwashing :)

This needs to be seen, first hand, for yourself, in your own experience, otherwise it’s nothing.
A fear perhaps...that if I see 'too much' (whatever that means) then I might not be able to 'unsee' it again, and if that were to lead to changes in my personality, then I wouldn't be able to unchange them.
It’s good that you bring this up. Actually, it’s quite interesting that most people fears the opposite. They come here in the hope of having their whole personality changed, and they get quite disappointed when it turns out that it’s not the case.

The personality is almost completely stays intact with this investigation. So if someone wants to work on their personalities, to solve some psychological or emotional issues, they have to work on that separately, after seeing through the self.

So, I can assure you, that your personality won’t change at all. The fictional Chris character will appear just as before, with the same likes, dislikes, desires, hobbies, everything.
Another subtle fear I am noticing is a fear that... I won't be able to do this. I'll fail. I won't be able to 'see' as clearly as you need me to see and we'll be going round and round forever in this thread. We'd be lost..
This is another common fear, but it’s unfounded. The only way to fail with this investigation is to give it up. If you persist, you cannot fail. And it doesn’t matter how long it takes, it takes as long as it takes (even if for a year). It doesn’t matter.
My sacred, loveable, protected little 'me' being under threat...of annihilation.
You are not alone with this fear either :)

There is nothing that could die or cease to exist.
There is no self that could die.
Just because the self is seen through, nothing will die, since there has never been a self there in the first place.
There is no self that could be annihilated or killed.
The only thing that changes is the RECOGNITION that there has never been a self there, it’s always just an imaginary character.
But nothing else will change.
The sense of self will still arise. The illusion of the self will still be there.
Chris-character will still live his life just as before.
He just will be known as a fictional character, that’s all.
So nothing will be lost, only a belief in the self will fall away.
But still I keep looking and looking. It's becoming a habit.
It’s great. This habit of looking will help a lot.
And there doesn't seem to be anything there to find. How boring!!
So....a fear of boredom as well perhaps?
Probably not a fear of boredom, but a fear of finding out that Chris is just imagined. Hence, thoughts might say “ it’s boring” as a trick to avoid looking further and deeper. Since why would I bother with something which is that boring?
V: What would happen if it turned out that there is no thinker of thoughts?
C: Maybe you shouldn't let me get away with this.
Am I avoiding looking at this question??
So, what do imagine, what are your fantasies, what would happen if it turned out that there is no thinker?

Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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Chris1001
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Re: Getting closer ...

Postby Chris1001 » Tue Oct 22, 2019 3:31 am

Hi Vivien,

Feeling an immense gratitude right now, seeing the time and care you've taken to go thru' my fears one by one. Such patience.

And no sign of the dreaded Zen stick :)

I'll take some time to reflect on all of this and pick up again tomorrow.

Thank you once again for your kind and ongoing help.

Chris

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Vivien
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Re: Getting closer ...

Postby Vivien » Tue Oct 22, 2019 3:36 am

Very welcome dear Chris, I'm looking forward to your reply. :)
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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Chris1001
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Re: Getting closer ...

Postby Chris1001 » Tue Oct 22, 2019 8:57 pm

Hi Vivien
So, what do imagine, what are your fantasies, what would happen if it turned out that there is no thinker?
So today - right here, right now, I'm not fearing anything much in relation to this question.
The fears tend to be so subtle, and so they wriggle around and shift, and sometimes disappear completely.
The only thing that changes is the RECOGNITION that there has never been a self there, it’s always just an imaginary character.
Am unsure as to how much recognition I've accessed, but it does feel like I've recognised a fair bit of it at this point.
Probably not a fear of boredom, but a fear of finding out that Chris is just imagined. Hence, thoughts might say “ it’s boring” as a trick to avoid looking further and deeper.
So....there is further and deeper to go then is there?

Chris

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Vivien
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Re: Getting closer ...

Postby Vivien » Wed Oct 23, 2019 12:18 am

Hi Chris,

We don’t have dig into resistance and fear unless they’re causing a big disturbance :)

So I’m going back to your previous replies continuing from there:
I mean, there are vibrations of energy going on there, for sure. Can they be said to be 'mind'?
I guess I must be conceptualising again...
Yes, it’s a conceptualization.

How do the ‘vibrations of energy’ is experienced?
As a thoughts? Sensation? Sound? Imagination? Taste? Smell? Visual image?

I am looking for a 'thinker' that thinks right now, and I am noticing that I'm trying to think my way to an answer.
When you look for the thinker, you have to turn to the source where thoughts are coming from.
And as you look there, check if you can find a thinker there. Can you?

Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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Chris1001
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Re: Getting closer ...

Postby Chris1001 » Wed Oct 23, 2019 12:37 am

Hi Vivien
We don’t have dig into resistance and fear unless they’re causing a big disturbance :)

So I’m going back to your previous replies
Ok. Sounds good to me.
How do the ‘vibrations of energy’ is experienced?
As a thoughts? Sensation? Sound? Imagination? Taste? Smell? Visual image?
Body sensations
And as you look there, check if you can find a thinker there. Can you?
No, in direct experience I cannot find a thinker.

Vivien, please could you answer the question I wrote in my last message - am curious to know what your response would be:
So....there is further and deeper to go then is there?
Chris


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