No self

[norstories11]

Is that an intellectual understanding, or a visceral one?

I would have to say it’s visceral. There is the sensation but it’s like it arises in nothingness. Thoughts about it arise but in what feels like a nothingness. My first inclination to your question was to answer....I don’t know if I’m intellectualizing or if this is being seen. I feel that if I describe that is seen then it’s intellect but what is actually seen is seen. At times it feels like silence and just everything going on like sounds, sights, etc...

[Vivien]

Hi Adam,

At times it feels like silence and just everything going on like sounds, sights, etc...

Yes, good. Please focus on that silence… the silence is the answer you are looking for :)

Is there a feeler of sensations separate from the sensations?

Is there a feeling of separation?

Vivien

[norstories11]

Is there a feeler of sensations separate from the sensations?

Is there a feeling of separation?

There is no feeler that is separate from sensation. There is only sensation. The only thing I feel to be separate is a sense of physical separateness in that the physical body is not the same as say a table or a tree. There is a solidness felt here that is unique to the location of the body. Is that separateness? Or is that normal?

[norstories11]

Vivien,
I feel as though there is “nothing” being aware of sensations. Sensations just seem to arise out of “nothing”

[norstories11]

Hey Vivien, I just realized that I am not sure what is meant by “separation”. I’m really not sure how to describe what is felt here. All I can say is that there is only whatever is arising.

[norstories11]

There is no one to be separate from experience. There is only experience as it is. It is not happening to anyone. It IS! Can’t be described! Can’t be understood! I feel like a shift of some kind occurred some time ago but again how does one know Vivien?

[Vivien]

Hi Adam,

I feel like a shift of some kind occurred some time ago but again how does one know Vivien?

When a shift happens experientially then it’s clear without any doubt. So if there is any doubt, then probably it’s complete. But that’s all right. We are here to look deeper :)

Is there anything separate from life, being outside of what is happening, looking at it?
Is there an experiencer + the experienced?

To see this, listen to the sounds, is there a hearer here and sound there? Or there is only the sound?
In touching, is there a feeler of touch and the sensation of touch? Or there is only one sensation?

Please don’t rush with your reply. Stay with these questions, look again and again, go really deep.

Vivien

[norstories11]

Hey Vivien, I really took some time to let things sink in

Is there anything separate from life, being outside of what is happening, looking at it?
Is there an experiencer + the experienced?

To see this, listen to the sounds, is there a hearer here and sound there? Or there is only the sound?
In touching, is there a feeler of touch and the sensation of touch? Or there is only one sensation?

Last night out of no where....there was only what was going on. There were sights, there were sounds, bodily sensations, actions, thoughts but there was also a profound silence. There was no longer a feeling of a “me”. I did nothing to make this happen it just seemed to happen on its own. There was no ”me” there and only what was happening. It feels amazing and peaceful and like I got real rest last night. The silence in which everything takes place is the answer.....there is no entity to which things are happening. There is phenomena occurring but to “no one” “no thing” that’s why there is silence. The me or sensations or feelings of a “me” are seen to only exist within thought and somehow an identification with this body.....I do not really know how to explain this. I guess I can’t. There never was an entity. Only everything as it is occurring on its own.

[norstories11]

Even the thoughts utilized in typing the message to you are arising on their own with no help or energy from an entity or a “me”. Me only exists in thoughts about it. No real me exists. There is only space and all phenomena occurring of which I have no explanation for. I can’t say it feels the way I thought it might but it feels true. There is no bliss, it feels ordinary.

[Vivien]

Hi Adam,

It feels amazing and peaceful and like I got real rest last night. The silence in which everything takes place is the answer.....there is no entity to which things are happening. There is phenomena occurring but to “no one” “no thing” that’s why there is silence. The me or sensations or feelings of a “me” are seen to only exist within thought and somehow an identification with this body.....I do not really know how to explain this. I guess I can’t. There never was an entity. Only everything as it is occurring on its own.

Beautiful :) You did a great looking.

Please observe what is happening in your everyday life.

Is there anything that is not on automatic?

Is there control over anything?

Is there anything separate from life?

Vivien

[norstories11]

Hi Vivien,

Please observe what is happening in your everyday life.

Is there anything that is not on automatic?

Is there control over anything?

Is there anything separate from life?

There is only automatic. Things are happening, decisions are being made and direction being taken but no one who is doing this. Without the entity making the decisions there is also no such thing as control as that implies a controller. Without the controller there is no control. It’s crazy how the absence of the subject automatically relinquishes control in any form it may take. Amazing! What could be separate? Is the thought that comes to mind.....everything IS as it is and everything is everything. There is nothing separate in what IS, which is everything. This is really difficult to explain :) how do you explain what IS?

[Vivien]

Hi Adam,

how do you explain what IS?

:) it’s hard to put it into words.

At the beginning of our conversation you wrote:

I want to see that there is no self beyond all doubt and to experience life from a viewpoint of not being separate from life.

What would you say to this now?

Is there anything that is not completely clear and you would like to look at?

Do you have any doubt?

Is there I to awaken?

Vivien

[norstories11]

Hi Vivien,

What would you say to this now?

Is there anything that is not completely clear and you would like to look at?

Do you have any doubt?

Is there I to awaken?

To my original request in that conversation....I would say that it is seen now, that what I was asking was really just an idea or set of ideas I had about what should be seen. What has been seen since that original conversation had now shown what was said to be just another set of ideas and expectations arising out of nothing. The original ideas I typed out themselves were not separate from life but instead are life itself happening but in the form of ideas and typing. I’m not sure if any of that sounds like it makes sense lol. Everything is clear and present and out in the obvious. There is nothing hidden from view because everything is happening as it always has. There is no doubt that it has been seen that there is no entity separate from what is happening. What does appear to be lessening is the desire to explain and understand all of THIS. Instead there seems to be relaxation into allowing what is to be and not having to figure anything out anymore. There is no “I” outside of mental images and vocabulary. So in that way “I” exists as a mental/verbal phenomenon but, it does not point to anything that is actually independent and real. I think at some point the looking became more actual as opposed to thinking about what is being seen. I can’t seem to find now where there ever was a “me” entity or separateness. I guess it may have felt like the mental image of the body separate physically from the rest of the world plus the sensation of looking were melded together to create a sense of a separate “self” entity. This is my way of describing what must have existed prior but it seen now that nothing and no one is seeing and being. It is odd in the sense that it feels different from the prior perspective, but also at the same time completely ordinary and not seen as different from what was perceived before. I am not even sure when the shift occurred, then again, there is no one to be sure of when a shift occurred. I think the first time it may have been seen I laughed a little and thought “how could something so simple be missed for so long”. There has been no fireworks or lights and bliss.....just ordinariness with no real center, no real identity.

[Vivien]

Hi Adam,

Thank you for your beautiful reply :)

Please answer the following questions with some detail please, and answer what's true for you rather than any sort of 'ideal' answer. Also please provide examples where asked.

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form?
Was there ever?

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience.
Describe it fully as you see it now.

3) How does it feel to see this?
What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over; made you look?

5) a) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work?
Give examples from your own recent experiences to how things happen and how things work.

b) What are you responsible for? Give examples from your own recent experiences to how this works.

6) Anything to add?

Vivien

[norstories11]

Hi Vivien, I will do my best to answer these questions

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form?
Was there ever?

There is no seperate entity. The “I” or “me” exists only as concepts or thoughts. In that way the “I” and “me” are also part of life as phenomena in and of themselves, however, there is no actual “real” me or I. There never was a real “me”.

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience.
Describe it fully as you see it now.

The illusion of seperate self is a type of hypnosis or an assumption that goes unquestioned. The assumption here was that when I say “me” or “I”, it is in reference to an actual entity. Here the feeling of body and looking was felt to be the self, when in reality “self” is only thought and concept in “mind”. There is only feeling of the body and looking happening. I believe the illusion begins in early childhood when we are told that we are a “name” or a “me” or a “you”. This designation is usually directed at the appearance of the physical body so we are identified as being the body in some way shape or form. But we can also be identified with the mind and emotions and thoughts.

3) How does it feel to see this?
What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

It feels like a relief, not in a sense that there is no longer any one to worry but in a sense that all things are just happening, in that sense there is no real control and all things are allowed to happen as they will without a struggle to change what is happening. The difference is that there is more of a certainty in this “seeing”. I believe there was a glimpse of this prior to the dialogue but there was not a real conviction of what was seen. Now I feel there is more conviction about this somehow.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over; made you look?

This seemed to happen when you mentioned to me that I was intellectualizing far too much instead of really looking. There was also a shift when I was told to focus on the “silence”. It was seen then, that the silence was where there used to be a transposed sense of self or the “I”.

5) a) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work?
Give examples from your own recent experiences to how things happen and how things work.

Decisions are what is experienced when the mind or intellect naturally moves through a line of reasoning to come to a conclusion, this is taken care of automatically although it may feel like we are doing it. We don’t have to think that we are thinking. Thinking and decision making just happens. Intention arises from prior conditioning and is of no creation by a seperate entity. Free will is an Illusion! The whole process is automatic. Control is also another illusion. We cannot know exactly why a particular decision is made, we can only think about it after it is already done lol! Everything is simply happening automatically either from prior conditioning or a combination between that and circumstance. There is a natural intelligence that will do what it does. Without thinking about it.

b) What are you responsible for? Give examples from your own recent experiences to how this works.

Nothing....only because there is no “me” to be responsible for anything. There is only everything happening as it will. What will naturally happen will naturally happen.

6) Anything to add?

There seems to no longer be a need to find out anything about life. Life takes care of itself and does not need anything figured out. This is the biggest difference that is seen. Even if there were “figuring things out” happening, it would also just be what is happening along with everything else. I cannot seem to pinpoint where the initial hang up was before this dialogue. Life feels the same but no questions have been answered and I cannot say that I know anything for sure. I’m a way nothing has changed. There does however, seem to be more of a sense of ease and relaxation in everyday life