No self

[norstories11]

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
I understand this to mean that there is no independent entity which is separate from life as the “subject” of experience. We may call it “I” or it may feel like we are the “observer” but in reality there is nothing and no one observing or being aware.

What are you looking for at LU?
I am looking for confirmation that this may have already been seen or glimpses here. I have been a seeker for a while now and I am ready to put this to rest and just live life freely whatever that may mean. I feel as though this may have been seen already or glimpsed at least but I am not sure if what is seen is what is implied by “no self”

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
I expect directness, clarity, and overall guidance. I really do not like to indulge in a lot of philosophy or wordiness. I like to get to the point. So I guess I would expect my guide to communicate as directly as possible the truth of this message in a way that it may become clear to me.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
I have been seeking in some form or another since I was 13 years old. I have done this mostly in private unbeknownst to those around me. I have meditated rather spontaneously and irregularly from time to time for over 10 years now. I am in no way consistent in my spiritual practices though. I began some self inquiry practice about 5 or so years ago. I have also read the Gateless Gatecrashers on your website and I have listened to the enlightening quotes quite a bit. I believe the enlightening quotes played a big part in seeing this truth of no self some time ago. Again, I guess I am looking for some clarification as to whether or not this has been seen.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self?
11

[Vivien]

Hi,

Welcome to Liberation Unleashed. My name is Vivien and I'd be happy to assist you in your inquiry.

This is YOUR inquiry. I will not be giving you new ideas and beliefs; only assisting you in examining and questioning the ones that you already have. We can have a conversation and see where it takes you.

I would like to ask you to write only from your experience as you see it, what feels true, with whole honesty.
And also post at least once a day. If you cannot post, or need more time, please let me know.
Can we agree on these?

Tell me, what are you really looking for. How would your life change if you find that?
What are you hoping for?
What do you want to happen?
What is incomplete right now?

Vivien

[norstories11]

Hi Vivien,

Thank you for taking the time to be my guide. I am thankful to have you here to help. I will do my best to answer your questions honestly.

1. Yes I an in agreement with you and more than willing to cooperate :)

2. What are you really looking for and how would your life change if you find that? I feel that what I am looking for is an end to the seeking. I am looking for rest and acceptance of what is (whatever that is) so that I can finally stop the incessant search for enlightenment or freedom or whatever else my mind wants to call it. I feel at this point exhausted with searching and I really just wish to be present with life and to live naturally without feeling like I have to find something. I feel that the "self" is the source of suffering at least mental suffering so I would assume that seeing that this is just an illusion would bring about some relief.

3. What are you hoping for? I am hoping that in seeing this truth, I will have relief and be able to finally rest in what is and simply live life freely, without feeling that something needs to be seen or understood. I am also looking for validation as to whether or not this has been seen already.

4. What do you want to happen? I want to see that there is no self beyond all doubt and to experience life from a viewpoint of not being separate from life. This is what the mind seems to come up with. Of course that is likely because I have read too much material on this topic. Although, I do feel that this may have been seen already but there seems to be some doubt about this. I would like to either A) validate that what was seen is the truth or B) delve back into the topic with fresh eyes inorder to see the truth of it.

5. What is incomplete right now? Honestly, I do not know how to answer this question. All I can seem to think of as a response is that I don't really feel that anything is incomplete. I may not fully understand how to answer this one.

I hope my answers help things along, I feel I have answered as honestly as possible

Thank you and I look forward to hearing from you

Adam

[Vivien]

Hi Adam,

Thank you for taking the time to be my guide. I am thankful to have you here to help.

You are very welcome :)

Fist, I would like to ask you to learn to use the quotation function, so our conversation will be easier to read later for both of us.
So here is the link to a video how to quote:
viewtopic.php?f=4&t=660

I feel that what I am looking for is an end to the seeking. I am looking for rest and acceptance of what is (whatever that is) so that I can finally stop the incessant search for enlightenment or freedom or whatever else my mind wants to call it.

This is a realistic expectation. And a rarely say that an expectation is realistic. :) As long as there is seeking, the self hasn’t seen through fully.

But, apart from expecting to seeking to stop, be careful and watchful with any expectation.

Since, every expectation is a ‘hindrance’ in realizing what IS. Expectations result in comparison. Comparison between what is happening, and the imagined expectation. Thus what has been seen can be thrown out or ignored, since it doesn’t match the expected outcome.

I feel that the "self" is the source of suffering at least mental suffering so I would assume that seeing that this is just an illusion would bring about some relief.

Suffering is not just about the belief in the self. There are many other beliefs and conditionings that can keep suffering ‘alive’ even after seeing through the illusion. It may lessen a bit, or may not. It’s different form everybody. But one thing is sure, the seeming suffering won’t automatically stop just because the self is seen to be an illusion. Lots of further looking is needed to unravel the beliefs and patterns that keeps it going. Falling away of conditionings can last at the end of the organism. Continuing to LOOK after the realisation is very much the key.

Also, physiological problems, traumas, emotional pains don’t dissolve just because of seeing no self. So all the conditioned reactions that stem from them still can arise. However, if someone decides to work on these, it’s usually much easier after seeing no-self.

I have read too much material on this topic.

For the time our investigation, I would like to ask you to stop reading/listening any teachers, and rather spend your time looking. Also, I would like to ask you to put aside all learned knowledge. You have to see this experientially and not relying on others’ experiences. Can we agree on these?

I really do not like to indulge in a lot of philosophy or wordiness. I like to get to the point.

Great! This is exactly what we are going to do :) That’s why you have to put aside all learned intellectual knowledge about it.

I want to see that there is no self beyond all doubt and to experience life from a viewpoint of not being separate from life.

What is it exactly that is separate from life?

Please point with your finger (literally) to the me/self that is separate from life.
Where do you point at?

Vivien

[norstories11]

That was quick! So I gave a lot of thought to your questions and they stopped me for a while....

Can we agree on these?

Yes. I promise not to read or reference any prior knowledge. I am truly ready to look honestly.

What is it exactly that is separate from life?

It appears that there is nothing separate from life. All that is, is life. Death or dying seems opposite but is also essential for life to be what it is. So even death is not separate from life.

Please point with your finger (literally) to the me/self that is separate from life.
Where do you point at?

I can only seem to point towards my face or towards the body. But the face isn’t the self. I would also say that the body is not the self or a self. It doesn’t seem that there is anything physical to point to that I can say is a self or a me. I guess though that there is a felt physical sense that somehow the body is “my self”.

[Vivien]

Hi Adam,

So I gave a lot of thought to your questions and they stopped me for a while....

Please don’t think about the questions. Thinking happens only intellectually.
Rather look what can be seen/experience right here, right now.
We are looking at experience and not thoughts about it.

It appears that there is nothing separate from life. All that is, is life. Death or dying seems opposite but is also essential for life to be what it is. So even death is not separate from life.

This is an intellectual reply. It’s not coming from looking at experience.

I guess though that there is a felt physical sense that somehow the body is “my self”.

Do you guess? Guessing is not enough. Guessing is thinking.

Please put the attention onto the ‘physical sense’ that the body is ‘my self’.
FEEL it.

Where is this FEELING that the ‘body is my self’?

Vivien

[norstories11]

Where is this FEELING that the ‘body is my self’?

Behind the eyes looking out at the world

Trying not to intellectualize. More difficult than I thought. I guess I do that a lot:)

[Vivien]

Hi Adam,

Trying not to intellectualize. More difficult than I thought. I guess I do that a lot:)

Yes, you have to stop intellectualizing.

This investigation will be very simple. You won’t need your intellectual mind to figure out anything.

We are going to strip away as much intellectualization as possible. We are going down to bare bones. To the simplest simplicity.

Intellectual understanding is what moves the needle the wrong way on the dial. We're going to move it back to the simplest position possible.

You have to look at each questions with the eyes of a little child, who has no intellectual knowledge about how things work.

Behind the eyes looking out at the world

Now, put the focus on the feeling/sensation behind the eyes.
Just FEEL it. Feel it as often as possible during the day. Preferably hundred times, before replying.

When you FEEL this sensation behind the eyes, what is it that actually FELT there?

Vivien

[norstories11]

Good morning Vivien, I was up late last night and early this morning. I’ve been looking the entire time and have come to the conclusion......

When you FEEL this sensation behind the eyes, what is it that actually FELT there?

There is only movement of the eyes, there is Nothing actually felt behind the eyes.there is just looking. While doing this I noticed though that the thought “ I am looking out at the world” kept popping up. It is seen that this is only a thought and not actual. Actually there is nothing looking. I’ve never looked at it like that before but in all honesty, there seems to be nothing felt behind the eyes. Just movement and light and color.

Adam

[norstories11]

Hi Vivien, I have done some more focusing on the feeling

When you FEEL this sensation behind the eyes, what is it that actually FELT there?

It’s simpler than my last response.....there is only the physical sensations of eye movement, blinking, sensations on the head and brow area. Then there is seeing of course which doesn’t feel like anything.

This is as plain and simple as I can say

Adam

[Vivien]

Hi Adam,

You did a great looking :)

there is only the physical sensations of eye movement, blinking, sensations on the head and brow area. Then there is seeing of course which doesn’t feel like anything.

Now, please stay with these sensations, and look for an ‘I’ that is supposedly looking/seeing from there.

Is there an ‘I’ or a looker/seer there?
What do you find?

Vivien

[norstories11]

Thanks, I’m doing my best not to think about it and instead just to look

Is there an ‘I’ or a looker/seer there?
What do you find?

There is no real tangible thing called “I”. There is the thought “I”. The word “I” exists. I feel that it is meant to point to a “looker”. I see no “looker”. I see no tangible entity that looks. Looking feels like it is happening from no where. It is just there.

[Vivien]

Hi Adam,

Now, put the attention to the sensations of the hands. FEEL them.

We often say: “I feel…”.

Are you feeling those sensations? Where is the ‘you’ feeling it?

Vivien

[norstories11]

Hey Vivien,

Are you feeling those sensations? Where is the ‘you’ feeling it?

The sensations are present but there is no one apart from the sensation. There is only the sensation.

[Vivien]

Is that an intellectual understanding, or a visceral one?

V