Requesting Vivien as guide

[Vivien]

And WHAT is it that is grasping to a thought? What is doing the grasping?

[Selfing]

Hi Vivien,

And WHAT is it that is grasping to a thought?

I cannot point to an 'I' grasping to a thought.. what happens is a thought appears projecting this 'I' for instance and if i am not paying attention it's like I am in my head and not in the actual moment if that makes sense.

I was going up the stairs yesterday and for a split second it was like I broke free of the thought pattern and I saw the thought as thought only. At that very moment I was living totally in my head, but not in the actual moment.. so strange.. I stopped and was like 'wow' that was only a thought about the 'I'. The thought was projecting something that was not happening at all, but it seemed so real until that very split second, then I inquired - wait, what is real here? It was so clear that what was real had nothing to do with the thought.

The thought kept giving reality to this 'I', as if this 'i' was going to do this and that, tomorrow bla bla bla.. creating this story so perfectly..

This made me ponder other things.. what if the 'i' is only that - thought alone. As thougth 'Vivien' happens, so does thought 'I' happens..

All of this is so subtle and easy to miss.. I cannot run away from thoughts because they happen on their own automatically. Is it just a matter of distinguishing thought from experience?

I also have a major doubt on another subject - this experience we talk about.. how can we talk about experience without making it into a thought? for example, in order for me to function and evaluate my experience in the moment ' typing on key board' doesnt it already seem like a something?? ain't I already projecting?? what is really happening then? is there anything ever really happening????? in that sense NO. Everytime I say something is happening I am already describing a thought and nothing else - VIVIEN.. what am I missing???!?!?!? am I speaking rubbish?

Sorry for all this blabing.. I get exited at times =)

Love,
Claudia

[Vivien]

Hi Claudia,

I was going up the stairs yesterday and for a split second it was like I broke free of the thought pattern and I saw the thought as thought only. At that very moment I was living totally in my head, but not in the actual moment.. so strange.. I stopped and was like 'wow' that was only a thought about the 'I'. The thought was projecting something that was not happening at all, but it seemed so real until that very split second, then I inquired - wait, what is real here? It was so clear that what was real had nothing to do with the thought.

Nice. This is the difference between reality and fantasy.

I also have a major doubt on another subject - this experience we talk about.. how can we talk about experience without making it into a thought? for example, in order for me to function and evaluate my experience in the moment ' typing on key board' doesnt it already seem like a something?? ain't I already projecting?? what is really happening then? is there anything ever really happening????? in that sense NO. Everytime I say something is happening I am already describing a thought and nothing else - VIVIEN.. what am I missing???!?!?!? am I speaking rubbish?

This is conceptual. You are trying to figure this out by thinking. Which is utterly useless. We don’t go there.
Let it go. Just relax. Don’t pay attention to what thoughts have to say on this topic. Rather just be aware what is happening here, now.

I cannot point to an 'I' grasping to a thought.. what happens is a thought appears projecting this 'I' for instance and if i am not paying attention it's like I am in my head and not in the actual moment if that makes sense.

It sounds that there is you + thoughts.
And thoughts are some kind of entities that have some power to project an ‘I’.
And when this real you is not paying attention to thoughts projecting an ‘I’, this real you gets into your head instead of staying in the moment.
But is this so?

WHERE is this YOU that is either in the head OR in the actual moment?
WHERE is this YOU that is switching between these two states or places?

I cannot run away from thoughts because they happen on their own automatically. Is it just a matter of distinguishing thought from experience?

Let me ask a different question.

Again, this statement suggests that there is YOU + thoughts. And this you cannot run away from thought.

So WHERE is this YOU that cannot run away from thoughts? - show it to me

Vivien

[Selfing]

Hi Vivien,

WHERE is this YOU that is either in the head OR in the actual moment?

I cannot point to a me. All I can say is what is being experienced. Either I am paying to attention to the thoughts running or either I am realising thoughts for the thoughts. I am describing what happens.. I don't know about the 'me' that is either in the head or the actual moment. All I can describe to you is that this happens.. I am not always this clear either.. sometimes the thought plays itself so perfectly that I am one with this thought completely sucked in..
Now it is as if I am speaking from 'outside' of thought.. I dont know what I am talking about.. i am already confused again..

WHERE is this YOU that is switching between these two states or places?[/color]

I cannot point to a separate me. It is not like there is me switching between thought state and reality.. I am either thinking or not thinking..
I think it's a thought BELIVED IN that creates the me, or makes the impression that there is a me. Purely a thought belivied in.

Again, this statement suggests that there is YOU + thoughts. And this you cannot run away from thought.

you said once that I will never know what i am because there is no 'I am'
so there can't be a 'me' + thought.
I realised a few days ago that this 'me' is a thought.
I still feel like something is missing like I am not connecting all the dots..

So WHERE is this YOU that cannot run away from thoughts? - show it to me

this me does not exist apart from thought. Thoughts happen and if it is belived in, the me is as if it has it's own reality, independent, but it's still only thought.
Nothing exists independently.

I find myself trying to 'locate' myself.. wanting to find a position.. this is becoming a real problem.. somehow it's like I don't know how to let go..

Love
Claudia

[Vivien]

Hi Claudia,

Either I am paying to attention to the thoughts running or either I am realising thoughts for the thoughts. I am describing what happens.. I don't know about the 'me' that is either in the head or the actual moment.

All right. So there is no ‘me’ that is either in the head or in the moment, but there is a ‘I’ this is either realizing thoughts for thoughts or not. Is this so?

What is the ‘I’ that is paying attention to the thoughts running or seeing thoughts for thoughts?
WHERE is this I/me that is paying attention to thoughts? - search for it

sometimes the thought plays itself so perfectly that I am one with this thought completely sucked in..

Now, could you point at WHERE the ONE that is sucked into thoughts is? Use your finger and point at it. Where do you point at?

I cannot point to a separate me. It is not like there is me switching between thought state and reality.. I am either thinking or not thinking..

Point your finger to the ‘I’ that is either thinking or not thinking. Where do you point at?

you said once that I will never know what i am because there is no 'I am'
so there can't be a 'me' + thought.

Claudia, you are doing it again.
You take on one of my statement as a belief, and now you are making an intellectual conclusion based on that belief.
This is pointless. Useless.

It’s NOT ENOUGH to make intellectual conclusion.

You cannot make the claim that ‘there can’t be a me + thought’ because I said something in the past.
Can you see this? Can you see how useless this logical thinking is?

I still feel like something is missing like I am not connecting all the dots..

Yes, of course. Since you are just trying to believe me! Seeing through the self is not a religion that needs beliefs.
We are looking at FACTS of reality, and not just believing what I or somebody else telling you.

somehow it's like I don't know how to let go..

What needs to be let go?

And more importantly WHO/WHAT needs to let go?

Vivien

[Selfing]

Hi Vivien,

All right. So there is no ‘me’ that is either in the head or in the moment, but there is a ‘I’ this is either realizing thoughts for thoughts or not. Is this so?

What is the ‘I’ that is paying attention to the thoughts running or seeing thoughts for thoughts?

I don’t know.. I honestly don’t know.. it happens and I notice it.. like right now, what is replaying to Vivien? What is moving the fingers on the iPad? I don’t know.. how are the thoughts happening I don’t know. Is there someone replaying to Vivien? I think I am.. what is this I ? I don’t know. When I look for this I physically I only see this body, everything else is a story in the head.

WHERE is this I/me that is paying attention to thoughts? - search for it

It’s more story when I look for it.. right now as I lay here and I physically look I can only describe what I am seeing.. this body, this room, a subtle sound.. if you ask me to look for the I the only way I have is to think about it. I cannot “see” the I anywhere else.

Now, could you point at WHERE the ONE that is sucked into thoughts is? Use your finger and point at it. Where do you point at?[/color]

I cannot point at anything physically observed by the 5 senses. I can point at this body, but this body doesn’t know anything about thoughts or anything else.
So I can’t point at anything.

[

color=#0040FF]Point your finger to the ‘I’ that is either thinking or not thinking. Where do you point at?[/color]

My head..

You cannot make the claim that ‘there can’t be a me + thought’ because I said something in the past.
Can you see this? Can you see how useless this logical thinking is?[/color]

It’s not like I am claiming. It is just a note to myself to remind me that that it’s not the way to go so I know I can drop it.

quote]somehow it's like I don't know how to let go..

What needs to be let go?[/quote]
Somehow I think I need to realise something.. and I feel like something is in the way.. like I can’t let things be as they are and accept that there is no explanation to anything and I will never find the answers I need..

And more importantly WHO/WHAT needs to let go?

Whatever is holding on to the belief that this is a person who decides, that thinks, that is a somebody.. I feel like I can’t let go of this.. it’s like the whole story of me it’s always in the background as soon as I wake up in the morning.. example ~ I don’t need to remind myself that my name is Claudia. I know it is without having to think about it.

This is how the me appears to me. I don’t have think about it, but as soon as I wake up in the morning, open my eyes, I don’t think this is me, no, but the knowledge is there exactly the same way with my name example.

Love
Claudia

[Vivien]

Hi Claudia,

it’s like the whole story of me it’s always in the background as soon as I wake up in the morning.. example ~ I don’t need to remind myself that my name is Claudia. I know it is without having to think about it.
This is how the me appears to me. I don’t have think about it, but as soon as I wake up in the morning, open my eyes, I don’t think this is me, no, but the knowledge is there exactly the same way with my name example.

As soon as the body wakes up, thoughts show up and tell a story.

And what is here underneath thinking?
Is there Claudia without a story about Claudia?

What drives the story about Claudia?

Is Claudia here right now?

If there are no thoughts about you, what is left of you?

Tomorrow morning, as soon as you wake up, investigate the followings (while still in the bed):

What is it exactly that is waking up? Is an ‘I’/Claudia waking up? Or is the body waking up?

Vivien

[Selfing]

Hi Vivien,

As soon as the body wakes up, thoughts show up and tell a story.

Vivien I found this post of yours so powerful that I had to take some time with it.. here lies my main blocks! And you have addressed it so well that I had to stop for a while to really ponder all of it and LOOK.

And what is here underneath thinking?

underenath thinking there is nothing.. you know that quote ' I think, therefore I am'.. so if there's no thinking and nothing going on, there is nothing.. I know this is incomplete but this is where I am at the moment.. I cannot figure out what is underneath thinking.. all I know is thinking.. is there is no thinking there is nothing..

Is there Claudia without a story about Claudia?

No. Without a story about Claudia, there is no Claudia.

What drives the story about Claudia?

I don't know what drives it.. there is a sucession of thoughts, that all put together there seems to be a story.. but this story is made of thoughts.. what drives it? I don't know. Is there a will to keep the story going? I don't know how to be without the story..!!
even if I say ' I want to drop the story, just be without thinking of a person' - it just seems so unatural.. like I am forcing not to think, which just provokes MORE thought!!!

Is Claudia here right now?

the body is here. For Claudia to be here there has to be a story (thinking)

If there are no thoughts about you, what is left of you?

EXACTLY!!!!!!!! million dollar question!!!! I don't know how to be without a story.. I only exist in thoughts.. if there is no thoughts there is no me. But at the very same time I cannot point to a time where I am not there ( thoughts). Vivien is there other ways to ask this question? I find it so hard.

Tomorrow morning, as soon as you wake up, investigate the followings (while still in the bed):

What is it exactly that is waking up? Is an ‘I’/Claudia waking up? Or is the body waking up?

I will keep investigating this..
At first it is the body waking up.. the thoughts come right after projecting the story and how I am a person IN the world etc


Claudia

[Vivien]

Hi Claudia,

Vivien I found this post of yours so powerful that I had to take some time with it.. here lies my main blocks! And you have addressed it so well that I had to stop for a while to really ponder all of it and LOOK.

I’m glad you find them helpful :)

what drives it? I don't know. Is there a will to keep the story going? I don't know how to be without the story..!!

Try to find this will that keeps the story going. Where is it?
Is there an actual will making the story-of-me going?

V: If there are no thoughts about you, what is left of you?

C: EXACTLY!!!!!!!! million dollar question!!!! I don't know how to be without a story.. I only exist in thoughts.. if there is no thoughts there is no me. But at the very same time I cannot point to a time where I am not there ( thoughts). Vivien is there other ways to ask this question? I find it so hard.

So the story-of-me (story of Claudia) is almost constantly on.

But WHERE is Claudia that the story-of-me is revolve around?

Vivien

[Selfing]

Hi Vivien,

Try to find this will that keeps the story going. Where is it?

I don't really understand this question.. what am i supposed to find? or look for? if it's not physical and I can't see it or touch it, what am I to find? I don't know what am I to find..

Is there an actual will making the story-of-me going?
It is not like I am physically making the story happen.. thoughts happen automatically.. I am aware of these thoughts and the story is belived.. There is no will making the thoughts about the story happen.. these thoughts happen automatically. Like in the morning as I am starting to wake up.. BOOM.. there they are..

But WHERE is Claudia that the story-of-me is revolve around?

I am only aware of the story.. How do I know the story? well i know the thouhts about the story.. they happen..
This Claudia is imagined in thought.. ah.. but there is no actual Claudia.. just the story... hum....

I know my body, and you know yours correct?
I don't know what is wrong with this sentence.. is it that there is no 'my' and 'yours'? there is just bodies? the 'my' and 'yours' is added by thought?


Oh dear.. thank you so much for your patience Vivien!!!

Love
Claudia

[Vivien]

Hi Claudia,

I know my body, and you know yours correct?

In everyday language we say: MY body, MY hand, MY heart, MY face, MY hair, my… my… my….

Where is the owner of the body who says it’s my/mine?
What is it that has/owns the body?

Vivien

[Selfing]

Hi Vivien,

I know my body, and you know yours correct?

In everyday language we say: MY body, MY hand, MY heart, MY face, MY hair, my… my… my….

Where is the owner of the body who says it’s my/mine?

I was going to say it is me. Only because in reference to your body there is you. I don't know how to answer this..

What is it that has/owns the body?

I don't know.. what owns the body?? what has a body?? i don't know.. I really don't know..
I don't even know how I have come to identify with THIS body.. Why does it feel like I know things, see things, smell things from 'this side', this body.. like there is a position from where all the senses connect with the outside..

as i taste the tea now.. i can say ' taste of tea'.. I don't know where I am going with this...

I am lost..

Lately I feel like I cannot answer your questions.. they seem to abstract.. i really try to look and answer the best I can but I am struggling a lot.. I am so sorry..

Claudia

[Vivien]

Hi Claudia,

V: Where is the owner of the body who says it’s my/mine?

C: I was going to say it is me. Only because in reference to your body there is you. I don't know how to answer this..

You are not looking. You are not investigating experience. You are just thinking and intellectualizing.

Have you actually SEARCHED FOR the owner of the body?
If yes, tell me where did you searched for it?
If no, why not?

You are just wasting your time with this, if you don’t look with every single question I give you.

V: What is it that has/owns the body?

C: I don't know.. what owns the body?? what has a body?? i don't know.. I really don't know..
I don't even know how I have come to identify with THIS body.. Why does it feel like I know things, see things, smell things from 'this side', this body.. like there is a position from where all the senses connect with the outside..

Again, you are just thinking, thinking and thinking. Utterly pointless.

Is this clear to you that I NEVER ask you to think about any of the questions?

Is it clear that your thoughts doesn’t matter with this investigation?

Is it clear that what we are doing here is to question your thoughts by checking if your thoughts/believes are in line with experience?

Lately I feel like I cannot answer your questions.. they seem to abstract.. i really try to look and answer the best I can but I am struggling a lot.. I am so sorry..

It seems abstract because you are making it abstract, by only thinking about it theoretically/intellectually.
And you don’t make it experientially, by actually turning your attention to what is here right now.

Please tell me, what is the difference between thinking about the answers vs looking at experience directly?

Vivien

[Selfing]

Hi Vivien,

Have you actually SEARCHED FOR the owner of the body?
If yes, tell me where did you searched for it?
If no, why not?

The body is physical and can be seen. A thougth says ' this is my body' . Why does thought assume 'my body'? because if the skin gets burnt this body feels the pain. The pain is not felt in a different body, but this one. These are facts and I don't have to use thought to see it.
I have to use thought to IMAGINE a body as if it's something other than the body - and this is what I can't get past. There always seems to be an awareness OF SOMETHING. Normally I say - 'my body' as if it is refereering to something other than me. Like there is a 'me' that knows 'the body'.
How to get past this? the idea that there is always an awareness or a 'me' that knows, feels, sees, smells...?? How to directly SEE that this is not the case??

You are just wasting your time with this, if you don’t look with every single question I give you.

I am truly trying and trying.. there is nothing I want more in life than seeing what you are guiding me towards to..

Is this clear to you that I NEVER ask you to think about any of the questions?

yes. But I cannot answer them without thinking.. when I just stay with direct experience there is nothing to talk about or point to you..
The idea I have of direct experience is all I can see, feel, smell, hear with the senses.. so when you ask me questions, if I don't use thought what can i point to you? Only what is now happening.. and that will not answer your question.
One of the first questions you asked me last time was ' what has/owns the body' ? if I answer with direct experience now this is what comes up:

hear sound - fingers touching laptop
feeling keyboard - finger touching laptop
feeling back pain - from leaning in chair incorrectly
Thought - answering to Vivien

How from the above direct experience can I know what owns the body? I wasn't even pondering the question as I was too absorbed paying attention to direct experience.. during that time no body, or this question was even coming up..
So what I am saying then is that if I focus on direct experience alone, I can point point to what is happening.. which lasts for a second.. then the thoughts come again with the same questions and doubts.. what do i do to these thoughts? Don't I need to see throught them???? or do I just ignore, ignore ignore and FULLY engage with direct experience?

Is it clear that your thoughts doesn’t matter with this investigation?

yes because thoughts cannot recognise the truth. Thoughts don't know anything.. I know thougts..

Is it clear that what we are doing here is to question your thoughts by checking if your thoughts/believes are in line with experience?[/color]

yes

Please tell me, what is the difference between thinking about the answers vs looking at experience directly?

by thinking I am imagining and I am distancing myself from seeing the truth. By looking at experience directly - This one I don't know for the above reasons.. ( do I make sense?)
Please let me know what do you mean by direct experience WHILE trying to answer your questions. Does the example above describe my problem well to you?

All my Love
Claudia

[Vivien]

Hi Claudia,

V: Have you actually SEARCHED FOR the owner of the body?
If yes, tell me where did you searched for it?
If no, why not?

C: The body is physical and can be seen. A thougth says ' this is my body' . Why does thought assume 'my body'? because if the skin gets burnt this body feels the pain. The pain is not felt in a different body, but this one. These are facts and I don't have to use thought to see it.
I have to use thought to IMAGINE a body as if it's something other than the body - and this is what I can't get past. There always seems to be an awareness OF SOMETHING. Normally I say - 'my body' as if it is refereering to something other than me. Like there is a 'me' that knows 'the body'.

Please read my above questions again. Do you see that you haven’t replied my questions?

A thougth says ' this is my body' . Why does thought assume 'my body'? because if the skin gets burnt this body feels the pain. The pain is not felt in a different body, but this one. These are facts and I don't have to use thought to see it.

This is intellectualization. It’s not coming from looking. It’s just a learned knowledge with is utterly useless with this investigation.

Can you see that your above comment is just an intellectualization?
Can you see that this kind of reasoning is useless with this investigation?

How to get past this? the idea that there is always an awareness or a 'me' that knows, feels, sees, smells...?? How to directly SEE that this is not the case??

By not just thinking and rationalizing about this, but rather ACTIVELY SEARCHING FOR this supposed ‘me’.

At this stage, it is important to realize that looking and thinking is not the same.

For example, if I asked you to describe what is behind your back right now, you can answer from memory- thinking, or you can turn the head around and see, then describe what is there as you see it.
So what is the difference between experience and thinking?

In this work you need to look in your experience and forget all you know, all you think is true, all you heard or read.

The idea I have of direct experience is all I can see, feel, smell, hear with the senses.. so when you ask me questions, if I don't use thought what can i point to you? Only what is now happening.. and that will not answer your question.

But if something cannot be found in experience, then it isn’t clear that something is just thought of, just imagined? That it’s just made up? Just a fantasy?

How from the above direct experience can I know what owns the body?

You are not trusting experience.
You are talking as if experience weren’t enough to see if there is an owner of the body or not.

Can you find an owner in experience?
If not, what are the implications of that?

or do I just ignore, ignore ignore and FULLY engage with direct experience?

Exactly.

Do you see that what we are doing here is contrasting what thoughts say to what is experience actually showing?

yes because thoughts cannot recognise the truth. Thoughts don't know anything.. I know thougts..

YOU know thoughts? On what evidential bases do you make the statement that “I know thoughts”?

Where is this “I” you are talking about?
Where is the knower of thoughts? Where?

V: Please tell me, what is the difference between thinking about the answers vs looking at experience directly?

S: by thinking I am imagining and I am distancing myself from seeing the truth. By looking at experience directly - This one I don't know for the above reasons.. ( do I make sense?)

No, it doesn’t make sense at all.

Vivien