Requesting Vivien as guide

[Selfing]

Hi Vivien,

I really needed to hear what you said on the last post. This helped me a lot.

Thank you for your patience - thank you really!

I am reading everything from the beginning and really contemplating everything.

I am writing back tomorrow if that’s ok.

Speak tomorrow

All my love,
Claudia

[Selfing]

Hi Vivien,

I read our posts over and over..

You said something that at the time I did not see it with the same eyes as now.. you said that I was using thought to remind myself of “no self”. I didn't realise I was doing this until you mentioned and only after me reading it over and over.

You have adopted the BELIEF that there is no-self.

Yes.. you are right here. If I look for the self now I can’t find but there is no major Recognisition or anything so I think I haven’t seen it..
How am I going to see once and for all and know that there is no self? Is there a recognition or?

Every single questions I give you, are pointer for you to look.
And you ALWAYS have to look AFRESH. NEVER EVER rely on the MEMORY of a previous looking.[/b]

Thank you so much for saying this.

So I’m going to slow down this investigation. I will ignore most of your replies, and I will give you just a few questions to investigate very thoroughly.

Yes please thank you, and thank you for your patience!!!

We have to make it simple.
You are heavily intellectualizing.
And this needs to be stopped.

Yes yes yes


All my love,
Claudia

[Vivien]

Hi Claudia,

Please sit for a few minutes and put your attention to your hands. FEEL the sensations there.
And as your attention is on the sensations, inquire:

WHAT is FEELING this sensation?

WHERE is the FEELER? – find its EXACT location

Repeat this many times before replying.

Vivien

[Selfing]

Hi Vivien,

WHAT is FEELING this sensation?

I try to look for what is feeling the sensation but for that I need to ask thought, “what is feeling it”. When I look there is only the sensation. I assume “I am feeling the sensation”. I only infer it that’s all. In reality only the sensation is felt.

WHERE is the FEELER? – find its EXACT location[/color]

Again, where is the feeler.. In thought only. The thought provides the time and space. But from our past conversations thought is fantasy as I cannot see it, smell it, taste it or feel it..

So the sensation is happening on its own.. don’t know where.. but I notice it only.. it’s happening.. to a “me” but this is infered only

All my love
Claudia

[Vivien]

Hi Claudia,

I try to look for what is feeling the sensation but for that I need to ask thought, “what is feeling it”. When I look there is only the sensation. I assume “I am feeling the sensation”. I only infer it that’s all. In reality only the sensation is felt.

Can you REALLY see this? Or is it rather an intellectual conclusion?

So the sensation is happening on its own.. don’t know where.. but I notice it only..

“…. But I notice it [sensation] only” – What is it that is notices the sensation?

it’s happening.. to a “me” but this is infered only

Do you REALLY SEE EXPERIENTIALLY that the sensations is NOT happening to a ‘me’, or you it’s just a learned intellectual knowledge or a logical conclusion?

Please describe to me the process how you look for the FEELER. How do you do the looking for the feeler?

Vivien

[Selfing]

Hi Vivien,

I try to look for what is feeling the sensation but for that I need to ask thought, “what is feeling it”. When I look there is only the sensation. I assume “I am feeling the sensation”. I only infer it that’s all. In reality only the sensation is felt.

Can you REALLY see this? Or is it rather an intellectual conclusion?

This is a hard one because if I focus only on the sensation, yes there is only the sensation but simultaneously there is that thought ' I am feeling this sensation'. So from what we discussed before, the feeling is Experience and the thought is fantasy. The tricky part for me is to see the thought as thought. Because the thought is saying the truth here. There is a sensation being felt. But What is feeling this sensation? I want to say I am so much!!!! But then I go around in circles again.. what is this 'I'. So the sensation is real but the I isn't. I can point to the sensation, I can describe it as being real and experienced, but what about the I? I only find it in thought. Just a narration. Just wanting to describe the action..

So the sensation is happening on its own.. don’t know where.. but I notice it only..

“…. But I notice it [sensation] only” – What is it that is notices the sensation?

this is such a hard question...! What is it that notices it?! again I want to say ' I notice it', but if the I is purely thought, then the sensation just is. On it's own. The thought wants to grab ownership of it so much!! I get confused so easily! Does the sensation know itself? No because if the sensation just IS there is no knowing OF IT.. the knowing comes after..expressed as thought only.

it’s happening.. to a “me” but this is infered only

Do you REALLY SEE EXPERIENTIALLY that the sensations is NOT happening to a ‘me’, or you it’s just a learned intellectual knowledge or a logical conclusion?

Viven this questions seemed so simple when I first read them.. now when I want to do the 'looking' it is so hard.. I just love it because it really makes me question everything! Makes me really Look.
I am not too sure here because as I said before the thought wants to grab owership of evertyhing, and I have been conditioned for so many years that before I know it I am back to taking the perspective of the 'me. Taking the position of the 'me' 'having' a sensation.. but this 'having' is the problem. When the sensation is being felt, at that very point, there is no I to claim anything, but as soon as I inquire about it, there it comes.. but again is only describing an action..
Sorry if I am blabing again but I like to share my views so that you can stop me if you have to. I hope that's ok.

Please describe to me the process how you look for the FEELER. How do you do the looking for the feeler?

as I feel the sensation ( rubbing the hands),thought appears ' i am rubbing my hands', Stop, I look for the 'I' - Can I see it? no, Can I smell it? no, Can I feel it? no, Can I touch it? no. Where is this 'I' ? in thought.
Where is the Feeler? in thought. Is the feeler real? No because it cannot be experienced.


So for the feeler or the I to be real, it had to be presented as the sensation??? is this correct?


All my love and gratitude,
Claudia

[Vivien]

Hi Claudia,

But What is feeling this sensation? I want to say I am so much!!!! But then I go around in circles again.. what is this 'I'.
Yes, you are going around in circles, sine you are not ACTIVELY SEARCHING for the self.

Rather you are thinking it through, making conclusions.

So for the feeler or the I to be real, it had to be presented as the sensation??? is this correct?

Yes. But isn’t this your belief that the self is real, existing entity?

as I feel the sensation ( rubbing the hands),thought appears ' i am rubbing my hands', Stop, I look for the 'I' - Can I see it? no, Can I smell it? no, Can I feel it? no, Can I touch it? no. Where is this 'I' ? in thought.
Where is the Feeler? in thought. Is the feeler real? No because it cannot be experienced.

This still happens in thought. It’s still thinking.

You are making a logical conclusion that the feeler is not real, since it’s just a thought, and thoughts are not real.

But you still FEEL as if there were a feeler, right?

You have to find the EXACT PHYSICAL LOCATION of the feeler or the feeling of me.

Please rub your nose now.
WHERE is the exact physical location of the feeler?

Vivien

[Selfing]

Hi Vivien,

Yes, you are going around in circles, sine you are not ACTIVELY SEARCHING for the self

How do I search for something that you say does not exist? I said that I only find the “i” in thought so how can I search for it? It only manifests as a thought. I dont know how do this search.

you are thinking it through, making conclusions

.

It’s the only way I know to actually see this.. when the me thought manifest I ask inwards what is this I. I don’t mean to think it through but I don’t know any other way..

So for the feeler or the I to be real, it had to be presented as the sensation??? is this correct?
Yes. But isn’t this your belief that the self is real, existing entity?

thank you for saying this.. I am not saying it exists as this body exists, because I can’t see the self but I can see the body so in that sense it does not exist. But what I actually seen so far is that the I thoughts manifest only in relationship to things and people.. like a standpoint. Or for example, If I am distracted I go around my life assuming I am a someone, completely lost in thought and not paying attention to what actually is happening like two things are being experienced. The life in my head x thought x and life as it is x experience x

Where is the Feeler? in thought. Is the feeler real? No because it cannot be experienced.

This still happens in thought. It’s still thinking.

how not to do it in thought?! How can I see it without using thought?

.

But you still FEEL as if there were a feeler, right?

Yes I am sad to say it...

You have to find the EXACT PHYSICAL LOCATION of the feeler or the feeling of me.

Please rub your nose now.
WHERE is the exact physical location of the feeler?

Not in the moment at all.. just the sensation is felt. So if thoughts appears saying “I am rubbing my nose” - then ignore the thought keep the Sensation?

Thank you so much Vivien..

[Vivien]

Hi Claudia,

You can check how your post will look like by pressing the ‘Preview’ button next to the ‘Submit’ button. So you can make adjustments if you need to. This post was a bit hard to read, so please check it before posting.

How do I search for something that you say does not exist? I said that I only find the “i” in thought so how can I search for it? It only manifests as a thought. I dont know how do this search.

But you don’t know experientially that the self doesn’t exist! You are STILL BELIEVING in the self, but you are trying to cover it up by another learned belief that there is no self.

It doesn’t matter if I said that the self doesn’t exist – this is just a belief for you.
My words are useless for you.
Doesn’t matter what I say about the self – you have to SEE it for YOURSELF if there is a self or not.
Can you see the difference?

It’s the only way I know to actually see this.. when the me thought manifest I ask inwards what is this I. I don’t mean to think it through but I don’t know any other way..

It’s not enough to ask a question and then waiting for a thought reply to arrive.

You have to ACTIVELY SEARCH FOR the self after the question is asked.

Just like you were looking for your keys.
When you are not sure if your keys are in your pocket, you have 2 options:

1. You either ASSUME and thus BELIEVE it it’s not in your pocket
2. Or you ACTUALLY SEARCH your pocket by LOOK INSIDE, and you can actually SEE that it’s not there.
Can you see the difference?

You have to ACTIVELY SEARCH for the self, just as you were searching for your keys. Is this clear?

I am not saying it exists as this body exists, because I can’t see the self but I can see the body so in that sense it does not exist. But what I actually seen so far is that the I thoughts manifest only in relationship to things and people.. like a standpoint. Or for example, If I am distracted I go around my life assuming I am a someone, completely lost in thought and not paying attention to what actually is happening like two things are being experienced. The life in my head x thought x and life as it is x experience x

This is not looking, this is speculating.

how not to do it in thought?! How can I see it without using thought?

1. First, you ask the questions (which is a thought): “Where is the self?”
2. And then you put your attention to the SENSATIONS of the body and ACTIVELY SEARCH for the ‘feeling of me’ (as if you were searching for your keys).
3. And when you searched through the body from head to toe, then you use words (thoughts) that best describe the looking/searching that happened.

V: But you still FEEL as if there were a feeler, right?

S: Yes I am sad to say it...

You don’t have to be sad about this. But I have to tell you what’s going on, I cannot let you believe that you have seen through the self while you haven’t. You’ve just built a belief that you can actually see that there is no self, while you just simply took on a belief of no-self.

Not in the moment at all.. just the sensation is felt. So if thoughts appears saying “I am rubbing my nose” - then ignore the thought keep the Sensation?

Put your attention of the sensations of the hands.
FEEL the sensations.

And while you’re FEELING those sensations, look for a PHYSICAL LOCATION where those sensations are FELT FROM. Look for a me/self/feeler inside the body as if you were looking for your keys.

Is the feeler of the sensation of the hand is in the chest?
Is it in the throat?
Is it in the head?
Or where is it exactly?

Vivien

[Selfing]

Hi Vivien,

Doesn’t matter what I say about the self – you have to SEE it for YOURSELF if there is a self or not.
Can you see the difference?

yes 100%. I am with you here.

2.Or you ACTUALLY SEARCH your pocket by LOOK INSIDE, and you can actually SEE that it’s not there.
Can you see the difference?

yes. It has to happen outside thought, the looking..

You have to ACTIVELY SEARCH for the self, just as you were searching for your keys. Is this clear?

yes clear.

You don’t have to be sad about this. But I have to tell you what’s going on, I cannot let you believe that you have seen through the self while you haven’t. You’ve just built a belief that you can actually see that there is no self, while you just simply took on a belief of no-self.

thank you for saying this. I truly appreciate it. I guess i am afraid that you lose your patience with me.. I had some glimpses with you and I appreciate you so much, finally there were things making sense, and I know you are genuine, and I know I feel inside that what you say is true, and that gives me motivation also. Thank you. I will never ever be tired of saying thank you because I will never be able to pay you this.. my freedom. Its priceless.


And while you’re FEELING those sensations, look for a PHYSICAL LOCATION where those sensations are FELT FROM. Look for a me/self/feeler inside the body as if you were looking for your keys.

Is the feeler of the sensation of the hand is in the chest?

when I concentrate on the sensation on my hands, only the sensation is present. There is no feeler of the sensation.. I just feel the sensation..

Is it in the throat?

no

Is it in the head?

no

Or where is it exactly?

I don't know.. The sensation is present.. where is the sensation being felt? in the hands.. This ' in the hands' is already thought.. If I close my eyes, there is only sensation.. if I open my eyes i kinda go ' The sensation is in my hands' as if there is me, and the sensation in the hands..I don't know how to see this differently.. I cannot say the sensation is happening to no one.. if it was happening to no one how could I report to you about the sensation? who had the sensation? I did. It seems so obvious that I did. Why? because I can speak about it.. I notice it.. wouldnt it sound crazy to say to you now - no one had the sensation.. ?!

Love,
Claudia

[Vivien]

Hi Claudia,

I guess i am afraid that you lose your patience with me..

I won’t go anywhere. I am here with you as long as you are committed to do the inquiry, no matter how long it takes.

However, I need your upmost honesty. Only write what is 100% true in you EXPERIENCE.
Can we agree on this?

Thank you. I will never ever be tired of saying thank you because I will never be able to pay you this.. my freedom. Its priceless.

You are very welcome :)

when I concentrate on the sensation on my hands, only the sensation is present. There is no feeler of the sensation.. I just feel the sensation..

So there is no feeler of the sensation, since ‘I just feel the sensation’? – WHERE is this ‘I’ that just feels the sensation?

The sensation is in my hands' as if there is me, and the sensation in the hands.

OK. We are looking for this ‘me’. WHERE is it?

I cannot say the sensation is happening to no one.. if it was happening to no one how could I report to you about the sensation? who had the sensation? I did.

WHERE is this ‘I’ that had this sensation? Where? Point to it. Show it to me.

Vivien

[Selfing]

Hi Vivien,

However, I need your upmost honesty. Only write what is 100% true in you EXPERIENCE.
Can we agree on this?

yes

when I concentrate on the sensation on my hands, only the sensation is present. There is no feeler of the sensation.. I just feel the sensation..

So there is no feeler of the sensation, since ‘I just feel the sensation’? – WHERE is this ‘I’ that just feels the sensation?

here I was using the 'i' purely to describe it to you but with no intention to give credibility to the 'i'

The sensation is in my hands' as if there is me, and the sensation in the hands.

OK. We are looking for this ‘me’. WHERE is it?

I honestly don't know. I don't even know what this 'I' 'me' is anymore.. all my life I was led to believe that I was a somebody, and everyone around me was a somebody also. Now I am questioning that and I struggle to give you the answers. I can only find the 'I' in thought. There is the only way where I find it.. a thought will come up labelling the experience. This thought I take to be 'me', to be 'I'. How to go from here?!

I cannot say the sensation is happening to no one.. if it was happening to no one how could I report to you about the sensation? who had the sensation? I did.

WHERE is this ‘I’ that had this sensation? Where? Point to it. Show it to me.

a thought appears saying ' i had a sensation'. This 'i' is only in thought. This is the only place I can point to - it appears as a thought. I cannot show it to you.


All my love,
Claudia

[Vivien]

Hi Claudia,

I honestly don't know. I don't even know what this 'I' 'me' is anymore.. all my life I was led to believe that I was a somebody, and everyone around me was a somebody also. Now I am questioning that and I struggle to give you the answers. I can only find the 'I' in thought. There is the only way where I find it.. a thought will come up labelling the experience. This thought I take to be 'me', to be 'I'. How to go from here?!

Claudia, you are trying to hold and grasp it firmly to make it into an intellectual understanding.

Just relax.

You don’t have to understand it intellectually.
You can let go of your thoughts and your intellect.

Just stay with what is here now, in this moment. Just feel… look around the room… listen to the sounds…

What happens when you let go of grasping to thoughts?


Vivien

[Selfing]

Hi Vivien,

Just stay with what is here now, in this moment. Just feel… look around the room… listen to the sounds…

What happens when you let go of grasping to thoughts?

there is peace.. a sounds happens but there is no thought saying ' there is sound' , sound just is - thought comes after.

I had a very strange feeling today.. during the day I would allow myself not to be engaged in thought (only possible for very short moments) and it was strange.. If thought are not there 'shaping' and 'labelling' and 'PROJECTING' there is no room for me, or I or anything.. for a split second I realised that it's only thought projecting this person doing this and that..

Viviven if I am not grasping to thought I don't exist.. is this weird or wrong?

All my love,
Claudia

[Vivien]

Hi Claudia,

I had a very strange feeling today.. during the day I would allow myself not to be engaged in thought (only possible for very short moments) and it was strange.. If thought are not there 'shaping' and 'labelling' and 'PROJECTING' there is no room for me, or I or anything.. for a split second I realised that it's only thought projecting this person doing this and that..

Nice looking :)

Viviven if I am not grasping to thought I don't exist.. is this weird or wrong? What is doing the grasping?

And WHAT is it that is grasping to a thought?

Vivien