I want to see what is true

[Lagrange901]

Hello, sorry for being late, I'm busy these days and I'm trying not to forget to do the exercises and answer on the forum.

Could you see the correlation between the commentator and what is called ‘my voice, my thoughts’?

They are the same thing, the commentator is a voice and 'my voice, my thoughts' are commentating what is happening right now.

And is there such a thing as “between thoughts”? Without thought, how could it be known?

No, that's why I couldn't really see that 'gap', there is no between thoughts.

Now about the 30 minute exercise :

Where are they coming from and going to?

I don't know, they appear and disappear from and into nothing.

Did you do anything to make a particular thought or thoughts appear?
Could you have done anything to make a different thought appear at that exact moment instead?
Can you predict your next thought?

I did not do anything for them to appear, they do so automatically.
I cannot decide what thought will appear the next moment, I'm not choosing my thoughts, thoughts come and go by themselves.
And I cannot predict my next thought, for example if I say : "My next thought will be about a blue whale"
I still cannot know if I will think about a 'blue whale' and I don't know what the image will look like.

Can you select from a range of thoughts to have only pleasant thoughts?

No, both pleasant and unpleasant thoughts appear by themselves, without my choice.

Can you choose not to have painful, negative or fearful thoughts?

I cannot and if I try to avoid painful/negative thoughts that's still a fearful thought, they come without me doing anything.

Can you pick and choose any kind of thought?

No I cannot, I see that I have as much control over thoughts as I have over the shape of the clouds..

Is it possible to prevent a thought from appearing?

No, because I do not know what my next thought will be.

Can you stop thinking a thought in the middle?

No, the thought stops when it wants, not when "I" decide to stop it.

It seems that thought has some logical ordered appearance, but look carefully and just notice if there is an organised sequence. Or is it just another thought that says ‘these thoughts are in sequence’ or “they take content from previous thought”, or that "one thought follows another thought"?

The actual experience of thoughts does not tell anything about a logical sequence, there is another thought which invents it.
If an actual "I" exists, then it must be able to control something, for example thoughts, but this is not the case, I have no control, I still don't understand what the "I" really is, other than a thought.

[forgetmenot]

Hi Anders,

Can you pick and choose any kind of thought?

No I cannot, I see that I have as much control over thoughts as I have over the shape of the clouds..

LOL….precisely!

Can you stop thinking a thought in the middle?

No, the thought stops when it wants, not when "I" decide to stop it.

And without thought, how is it known that a thought is being stopped?
Where does a thought end and another begin and where exactly is a middle of a thought! :D

It seems that thought has some logical ordered appearance, but look carefully and just notice if there is an organised sequence. Or is it just another thought that says ‘these thoughts are in sequence’ or “they take content from previous thought”, or that "one thought follows another thought"?

The actual experience of thoughts does not tell anything about a logical sequence, there is another thought which invents it.
If an actual "I" exists, then it must be able to control something, for example thoughts, but this is not the case, I have no control, I still don't understand what the "I" really is, other than a thought.

BINGO…exactly…the “I” is simply a thought!

The label “I” is AE of thought and not AE of an I
Sensation labelled as “I” is AE of sensation and not AE of an I
Image labelled as “I” is AE of colour and not AE of an I
Smell labelled “I” is AE of smell and not AE of an I
Taste labelled “I” is AE of taste and not AE of an I
Thought ABOUT an “I” are AE of thought and not AE of an I

So what is KNOWN is label + sensation + colour + smell + taste + thoughts about an “I”, however, is an “I” actually known?

Looking is nice and simple.

A thought can be found, but can a thinker of thought be found?
Can an “I” be found in thought itself?

Sound can be found, but can a hearer of sounds be found?
Can an “I” be found in sound itself?

Colour can be found, but can a see-er of colour be found?
Can an “I” be found in colour itself?

Sensation can be found, but can a feeler of sensation be found?
Can an “I” be found in sensation itself?

Smell can be found, but can a smeller of smell be found?
Can an “I” be found in smell itself?

Taste can be found, but can a taster of taste be found?
Can an “I” be found in taste itself?

Experience can be found, but can an experiencer of experience be found?

It's as simple as that. Just look and see what is actually present - and what is only imaginary.

Kay

[Lagrange901]

So what is KNOWN is label + sensation + colour + smell + taste + thoughts about an “I”, however, is an “I” actually known?

There is a thought about an "I" , and that thought is actually known.
No more than that, I don't see anything else.

A thought can be found, but can a thinker of thought be found?
Can an “I” be found in thought itself?

The thinker of thought is only a thought, I don't see any "I" in thought itself..

Sound can be found, but can a hearer of sounds be found?
Can an “I” be found in sound itself?

The hearer of sound is a thought, it is known actually as a thought, I don't see anything else.

Colour can be found, but can a see-er of colour be found?
Can an “I” be found in colour itself?

The seer of colour is a thought, In color itself there is no I-thought.

Sensation can be found, but can a feeler of sensation be found?
Can an “I” be found in sensation itself?

The feeler of sensation is a thought, in sensation itself there is only sensation, no "I".

Smell can be found, but can a smeller of smell be found?
Can an “I” be found in smell itself?

The smeller of smell is a thought, there is no "I" that can be found smelling the smells, only the I-thought that appears afterwards.

Experience can be found, but can an experiencer of experience be found?

The "experiencer" is an experience (of thought) inside experience, there is only experience, nothing outside it.

[forgetmenot]

Hi Anders,

So when LOOKING and there is no "I" to be found...how does it feel to see this? What happens?

Kay

[Lagrange901]

So when LOOKING and there is no "I" to be found...how does it feel to see this? What happens?

It feels like nothing happened or is happening, it feels like this was always true but I overlooked the obvious.
Everytime I look, there is no looker, everytime I hear there is no hearer; language forces me to use "I" in every sentence, but I do not know what an "I" is, everytime "I" use I, I see that there is no "I" using the "I". =))

Thoughts about a self come up, believing in the self happens, but everytime I look, I see that it's only imaginary, and it gives me a sense of freedom in a way, freedom from being 'someone' everytime.
Thoughts can say whatever they want, they come and go, I do not come and go.

[forgetmenot]

Hey Anders!

So when LOOKING and there is no "I" to be found...how does it feel to see this? What happens?

It feels like nothing happened or is happening, it feels like this was always true but I overlooked the obvious.
Everytime I look, there is no looker, everytime I hear there is no hearer; language forces me to use "I" in every sentence, but I do not know what an "I" is, everytime "I" use I, I see that there is no "I" using the "I". =))

Thoughts about a self come up, believing in the self happens, but everytime I look, I see that it's only imaginary, and it gives me a sense of freedom in a way, freedom from being 'someone' everytime.
Thoughts can say whatever they want, they come and go, I do not come and go.

Lovely post to read :) Yes, thoughts ABOUT a self continue to appear; there is no author of thought to change what thoughts appear when and about what!

It appears that you are clear about AE and the nature of thought. So let's move onto the idea of control, choice and decision making.

1. Hold a hand in front of you; palm turned down.
2. Now turn the palm up. And down...and up and so on.

Watch like a hawk.

Don't go to thoughts, examine the actual experience. Do this as many times as you like, and each time inquire…

How is the movement controlled?
Does a thought control it?
Can a ‘controller’ of any description be located?
How is the decision made to turn the hand over? Track any decision point when a thought MADE THE DECISION to turn the hand over and the hand turns over immediately.
Can you find a separate individual or anything that is choosing when to turn the palm up or down?

Kay

[Lagrange901]

How is the movement controlled?

I don't see a controlling of movement other than the thought of it.

Does a thought control it?

A thought says that it controls the movement, that's it.

Can a ‘controller’ of any description be located?

The controller is a thought, it can be found only as a thought, many times it does not arise but things still happen without any controller, so it cannot be real.

How is the decision made to turn the hand over? Track any decision point when a thought MADE THE DECISION to turn the hand over and the hand turns over immediately

It's the opposite, the movement happens and then a thought says that someone controlled it, "me".
so it's a movement -> thought and not thought -> movement

Can you find a separate individual or anything that is choosing when to turn the palm up or down?

No. I can only find a thought that says someone is doing it.

[forgetmenot]

Hi Anders,

As we move through this exploration, I would like for you to notice how you feel about what you are realising. Don't make it an intellectual pursuit. Intellect helps with understanding, but intellectual knowing is not the same as what a realisation is, and an intellectual knowing is not a realisation. If you only want an indepth intellectual understanding, then you can get that from books and listening to teachers on Youtube. It's not about doing the exercises and acquiring more knowledge....when you actually see what the exercises are pointing to...what happens...how do you feel? If you want the epiphany...then it's the LOOKING, and noting what you are seeing and feeling via the looking that does that it, so pay attention to how you feel and not what gaining from gathering more information.

Can you find a separate individual or anything that is choosing when to turn the palm up or down?

No. I can only find a thought that says someone is doing it.

Yes. So this also points back to the idea of a thinker. That there is an “I” that is control of thoughts…of when they appear and what they are saying and pointing to.

Let’s continue along this vein! The aim of the following exercise is to discover whether the function of choice can really be found or confirmed in actual experience. The idea of making ‘choices‘ is a very clear example of a function that we wrongly identify as the basis of our identity.

You need to get any two different drinks you like for this exercise, ie coffee, tea, milk, water, juices, smoothies, beer, wine, etc. One will be drink A the other will be drink B

Sit for a few moments, take a few relaxed breaths and let the dust settle. When you feel ready:

1. Look at drink A and at drink B. Think about their respective qualities, the things you like about them, compare and weigh the pros and cons of each. See if a preference is manifesting for one or the other.
2. Count to 5.
3. Choose one of the drinks. Pick it up and take a sip.

Questions:
Remember that we’re looking for some kind of function, a something, an ‘I’ which is doing the ‘choosing’.

In step 1 when thinking about their respective qualities, did you ‘choose’ the qualities? Or did they kind of appear by themselves? If some preferences manifested, did you ‘choose’ these preferences? Or did they just pop up by themselves?

In step 2 when you counted to 5, if the preferences took the back seat while the numbers took the front seat, did you ‘choose’ this sequence of event? Did you ‘choose’ to shut down the preferences to give way to the counting? Did you directly experience a mental function or faculty doing the ‘choosing’? Have you seen this function in action?

In step 3 where you made a choice, did you actually witness or directly experience a mental function or faculty doing the ‘choosing’? Did anything arise that announced, ‘I am the chooser’? If so, what does this function look like?

Sometimes we describe this sense of choosing as a ‘feeling’: It feels like ‘I’ did the ‘choosing’. But the question is, can a feeling ‘choose’? Is it in the nature of a feeling to ‘choose’?

Kay

[Lagrange901]

I will write an answer to the exercise tomorrow, it's 00:48 here, sorry for being late.

[Lagrange901]

In step 1 when thinking about their respective qualities, did you ‘choose’ the qualities? Or did they kind of appear by themselves? If some preferences manifested, did you ‘choose’ these preferences? Or did they just pop up by themselves?

They appeared by themselves, and so did the preferences.

In step 2 when you counted to 5, if the preferences took the back seat while the numbers took the front seat, did you ‘choose’ this sequence of event? Did you ‘choose’ to shut down the preferences to give way to the counting? Did you directly experience a mental function or faculty doing the ‘choosing’? Have you seen this function in action?

I don't see any such function, it's just counting.

In step 3 where you made a choice, did you actually witness or directly experience a mental function or faculty doing the ‘choosing’? Did anything arise that announced, ‘I am the chooser’? If so, what does this function look like?

After the counting ended I picked one but I didn't see any "choosing" taking place other than the action itself, it felt like it was a random choice.

Sometimes we describe this sense of choosing as a ‘feeling’: It feels like ‘I’ did the ‘choosing’. But the question is, can a feeling ‘choose’? Is it in the nature of a feeling to ‘choose’?

The feeling of choosing happens after choosing, a feeling cannot choose, only the doer of actions can choose.
Because 'choosing' is a thought/feeling appearing after the action, it cannot be a true choosing.
Even if I think before choosing : "I will pick tea" , I feel like I'm not really controlling when I will move the arm and actually do it, if feels like any choosing is just a thought appearing after a certain action.

[forgetmenot]

Hello Anders,

Sometimes we describe this sense of choosing as a ‘feeling’: It feels like ‘I’ did the ‘choosing’. But the question is, can a feeling ‘choose’? Is it in the nature of a feeling to ‘choose’?

The feeling of choosing happens after choosing, a feeling cannot choose, only the doer of actions can choose.
Because 'choosing' is a thought/feeling appearing after the action, it cannot be a true choosing.
Even if I think before choosing : "I will pick tea" , I feel like I'm not really controlling when I will move the arm and actually do it, if feels like any choosing is just a thought appearing after a certain action.

Where exactly is this “doer of action” who can choose?
Let’s have look at the idea of a doer/doership.

Take a few relaxed breaths to let the dust settle for a while, and then:
Look on your right.
Then look on your left.
Finally, bring your head back to centre, close your eyes and look in front.

Okay, so when you look on the right, the view on the right is seen (whatever that is).
When you look on the left, the view on the left is seen (whatever that is).
And then, when you look in front of you with eyes closed, the view in front is seen (ie ‘black space’).

So, when the view on the right is seen, do you have the ‘choice’ not to see? I’m not asking can you ‘choose’ to see something else like another view or ‘black space’ if you close your eyes. The question is, can you turn seeing off? Can you NOT see what is seen?

Same thing with the view on the left, can you NOT see the view on the left?

Same thing with the view in front with closed eyes, can you NOT see the ‘black space’?

Can you turn off seeing?

What did the 'chooser' choose? Did a 'self' choose something?

If you can't choose what you're aware of, then what else is there to choose?

Kay

[Lagrange901]

Hello, sorry that I didn't answer daily, from now on I can do it.

So, when the view on the right is seen, do you have the ‘choice’ not to see? I’m not asking can you ‘choose’ to see something else like another view or ‘black space’ if you close your eyes. The question is, can you turn seeing off? Can you NOT see what is seen?

I don't have the choice not to see, there is just seeing, I cannot turn off seeing in the same way that I cannot turn off touch and other senses. I can't choose seeing.

Same thing with the view on the left, can you NOT see the view on the left?

I can't.

Same thing with the view in front with closed eyes, can you NOT see the ‘black space’?

I can't, the content of seeing changes but there is always seeing, at least when I am awake.

Can you turn off seeing?

I can't.

What did the 'chooser' choose? Did a 'self' choose something?

No, I don't see anything that could choose whether to see or not.

If you can't choose what you're aware of, then what else is there to choose?

There are only thoughts of choosing, I don't see any real choosing happening. I think there is nothing to choose, everything is as it is. I may believe that I chose something, but when I look I see that there is no choosing.

[forgetmenot]

Hi Anders,

If you can't choose what you're aware of, then what else is there to choose?

There are only thoughts of choosing, I don't see any real choosing happening. I think there is nothing to choose, everything is as it is. I may believe that I chose something, but when I look I see that there is no choosing.

And when you see this...how do you feel?

Kay

[Lagrange901]

And when you see this...how do you feel?

I don't feel anything special. It's peaceful, everything becomes calmer&quieter. No chooser means no problems because there is no one to have problems, whatever may happen the truth does not change, even if today I believe in all the self related problems, it does not matter, this is what I feel : Even if I believe or not in the 'self', this peace is always here, even if I think that it is not.
But the self is a though subject because I cannot yet tell what a 'self' is, I took it for granted but now I don't know where it can be found because I don't even know what it means.
The self is based on nothing but thoughts&ideas, thoughts and ideas are not me, I don't know what I am, I only know that I am.

[forgetmenot]

Hello Anders,

And when you see this...how do you feel?

I don't feel anything special. It's peaceful, everything becomes calmer&quieter. No chooser means no problems because there is no one to have problems, whatever may happen the truth does not change, even if today I believe in all the self related problems, it does not matter, this is what I feel : Even if I believe or not in the 'self', this peace is always here, even if I think that it is not.
But the self is a though subject because I cannot yet tell what a 'self' is, I took it for granted but now I don't know where it can be found because I don't even know what it means.
The self is based on nothing but thoughts&ideas, thoughts and ideas are not me, I don't know what I am, I only know that I am.

“I cannot yet tell what a 'self' is, I took it for granted but now I don't know where it can be found because I don't even know what it means”….YES, exactly! You cannot know what you are, there is no thing to identify with/as, but you can see what you are not!

Obviously, the body is something that is believed to be ‘me’…that a ‘me’ resides in a body, so let’s see if that concept is real.

Sit with eyes closed for about 15 minutes.
Paying attention only to the pure sensations, without relying on thoughts or mental images:

Can it be known how tall the body is?
Does the body have a weight or volume?
In actual experience does the body have a shape or a form?

Is there a boundary between the body and the clothing?
Is there a boundary between the body and the chair?

Is there an inside or an outside?
If there is an inside - inside of what exactly?
If there is an outside, the outside of what exactly?

What does the word/label ‘body’ ACTUALLY refer to?
What is the ACTUAL experience of the body?

Look very carefully, especially with the last question. Take your time, don’t rush. You can look several times during the day while doing other things (like washing hands, showering, having a short break from work, walking, etc.) before replying.

Love, Kay