looking for awakening

[seeyourself]

Any guides available?

[vinceschubert]

Hi, first a contract.
Are you willing to (try and) post every day ?
to give 120% honesty to yourself and me ?
relate only from your own experiencing, no second hand knowledge, quoting etc.
stop all other seeking type activities for the duration of this ? (reading, viewing, meditating etc.)
Not expect a transfer of knowledge. We are not teachers.
I will ask questions, you will not attempt to answer them for me, you will communicate the response that you experience to me. The questions are to position you to SEE, to DISCOVER, to RECOGNISE something for yourself.
agreed ?

Now, give me a rant on what your expectations are for being here. Your hopes, desires and what you actually expect.

vince

[seeyourself]

Hi
Yes I will try and post every day... although I had problems even finding my post and then finding your reply (guess I'm not technically gifted:-)
Honesty, yes.
I agree to your other requirements.

My rant:
I have been a seeker for 50 years. at age 19 I feel that I awakened but then lost it in minutes. I have been trying to regain that sense of oneness with each tree, animal and person that I encounter at that time, primarily because all of my fears dissolved during that period of temporary waking up.
I seek not to reestablish a lost experience, but rather to see that I am neither a thing, nor a
cause, nor a target for effects. I don't expect to stop noticing duality, or feeling pain... but I do seek knowing that I am not that.
To me shame, blame, regret, guilt; are all symptoms of "being a thing", a target, a cause or effect. I know I am not a thing but I live as though I do not really know this as an ongoing experience. I want to see that I am not an "I" nor not an "I", that I am neither nothing nor something... that there is a story, but it is not me.
Hope that is a good start for this journey:-)
Stu (seeyourself)

[vinceschubert]

Good morning Stu,

to see that I am neither a thing, nor a cause, nor a target for effects.

What is your response when hearing that all of those things exist, it's just not you that they exist for.
That you will Never 'see', only that SEEing will happen.
How can this be ?

[seeyourself]

Hi... Vince? :-)

My response is that I feel that all of these "things" don't really exist at all... and yet I am locked into this trap of causes and effects that I don't really believe in.

The experience I had at age 19, was for me... just not a finite located me. I felt the peace and absence of polarity of being both poles of all polarities; like love/hate, right/wrong, trapped/free...
So I start with the assumption that I will see but not as a separate self or ego. That I will see as all things. Maybe this is just a story, I don't know.

I guess I am saying that if something exists, it must exist not only for me but as me, and that I am what exists, or is noticed... and that I would be aware "as" this noticing.
I believe that when SEEing happens... it will happen as me... I will be that seeing.

"How can this be?" I have a feeling that there is no paradox in being the SEEing that never sees... that the SEEing never is aware of or notices that it is the "seeing" because it is an event not a thing that can notice anything.
Very perplexing...

[vinceschubert]

I am locked into this trap of causes and effects

Tell more about this. Give an example.

That I will see as all things.

This is still an identity. ( a mysterious one, but still you are identifying)

Maybe this is just a story, I don't know.

This is a big one; EVERYTHING outside of your current direct ExperiengING, is a story. Stories may or may not be true, but they are not reality!

I believe that when SEEing happens... it will happen as me... I will be that seeing.

No you won't! Seeing is just seeing, no I involved. Consider this; You look at a tree, that is the organism (labeled Stu) takes in a frequency (labeled light/color) and the organisms brain interprets the stimulation, via the eyes, and then consults a database of learned and past information and applies the label 'tree'. Where is the dividing line between Stu's involvement and the trees ?

[seeyourself]

The trap of causes and effect I am talking about are duality. I know that I am my thoughts and that these thoughts just arise without a cause, but still I live in this mental trap of duality and I can't shut my mind off. The mental chatter, daydreams, that concern reaching goals (goals such as anything in my life that I failed at such as a successful career, getting the girls I wanted when I was in school to fall in love with me, etc) ... don't go away or reduce in power even though I know that they just arise.

"That I will see as all things" Yes that is just another mental story.

Stories are not true to me, but I live my life as though they were true or real. It's like I live my life with one foot in each world (duality and nonduality), and can't step into just one or the other.

OK... so I will not be the seeing... in that seeing has no identity, but does that mean that for a sense of awareness and experiencing to exist... there must be identification with words and stories as "me"?... and if so, how do I untangle experiencing from someone experiencing, so that there can just be living as experiencing?? That is my goal in all of this, to live not as a "thing", but rather as the flow of experiencing... or failing that, to at least not be trapped as a thing that has experiences in memory.

[seeyourself]

I was reading your blog and realized that if I do not add an "I" or "me" to a thought or feeling, or story, then my story that says "I am my thoughts", falls away or at least reduces, and so does the sense that there is someone trapped!! :-)
But this must just be a trick technique, and not an awakening of any kind...?

[vinceschubert]

and realized that if I do not add an "I" or "me" to a thought or feeling, or story, then my story that says "I am my thoughts", falls away or at least reduces, and so does the sense that there is someone trapped!! :-)

The key word here Stu, is realized
That was a shift in perception.

this must just be a trick technique, and not an awakening of any kind...?

Hmm, no trick intended, but we do have to 'get around' the mind, usually by either tricking it or exhausting it, to see reality. You SAW a glimpse of reality. The mind will do what it can to stay in the familiar. Just remember that thoughts are worth exactly as much as the sound of the refrigerator.
What you saw was before thought.

not an awakening of any kind...?

Why do you say this ?

[seeyourself]

I said not an awakening of any kind, because to me an awakening is having no beliefs, no sense of loss or failure or success, no reason to compare me to others or to the goals I have set for myself but failed to achieve.

I spend several hours yesterday looking at "self" and looking for its source. I of course could find no source, but when an interesting daydream or struggle with a goal got intense, I was fully that believed in self or "I".

During the night I noticed that my "I" daydreams were becoming to some degree, a very interesting stage show that was being watched, which was good because there was just a story and no belief... but this would then end and go back into me in the story as a belief.

I don't seem to be able to take that step beyond self so I guess my realization is partly a mind thinking phenomenon.

[vinceschubert]

to me an awakening is having no beliefs, no sense of loss or failure or success

Stu, This is obviously a story that thought has built up from interpretation of others attempts to put the wordless into words. That plus imagination. Do you hold this to be 'real' ?

was fully that believed in self or "I".

Not "believed in", lost in, totally immersed it the story, yes. But there was no awareness of this, it was just happening. Awareness came later and mind said "you fully believed in it", but seeing it, even post event will weaken it. Soon you will catch yourself about to 'get lost' in a story, and even sometimes you will be mid-immersion and realise that it is happening. Getting lost in it, is habit. Brain conditioning from years of repetition.
Develop humor, a chuckle when you see it happen. Each seeing depletes it. The new neuronal connections will establish and the old ones will release from disuse.

I don't seem to be able to take that step beyond self

Another story. Check your expectations and realise that they are a mind ploy to stay comfortable and familiar.
Relax, you have one foot through and are about to fall forward completely through.
Consider, reality has been with you the whole time and is still with you. THIS IS IT ! Now you are starting to See it.
i'm excited.

[seeyourself]

Yes, I see that my belief about what the key points of awakening must be, is a story... but I know that I have read comments by awakened people that say that the self is a lie and does not exist at all. What I hold to be real is that experiencing is happening all the time and within that is the belief in a me that is the cause or effect of those experiences.

Not "believed in", lost in, totally immersed it the story, yes. But there was no awareness of this, it was just happening. Awareness came later and mind said "you fully believed in it", but seeing it, even post event will weaken it. Soon you will catch yourself about to 'get lost' in a story, and even sometimes you will be mid-immersion and realize that it is happening. Getting lost in it, is habit. Brain conditioning from years of repetition.
Develop humor, a chuckle when you see it happen. Each seeing depletes it. The new neuronal connections will establish and the old ones will release from disuse.

That is exactly what I should have said! :-) Not a believed in self called "I", but rather lost in, sucked into the story without any awareness of that happening, like a programed habit. That's what gives me the feeling of being trapped by life experiences.
But... I seem to like to daydream about things a wanted and failed to get in life, and those daydreams are dramatic and strong and I get lost in them as an "I" that seems to like to sometimes be the effect of other causes... like there is pleasure in suffering... bizarre.

"a mind ploy to stay comfortable and familiar"...
Yes again! It's like the ground I am familiar standing upon.

But by this morning, and probably by tomorrow morning... I will see my dramas at best from the perspective of a second "I" that is sitting in the audience watching this life drama unfold. That second self is still the same illusion that does not seem to want to go away...

[vinceschubert]

What I hold to be real is that experiencing is happening all the time and within that is the belief in a me that is the cause or effect of those experiences.

I see your logic here Stu, but it's faulty because it's based on unsound assumptions. You assume cause and effect. You assume that there has to be an experiencer that is separate from the expereincing.
You say "what you hold to be true", isn't this a belief labeled as "true"? Isn't it other beliefs that apply the label ? Then you say that "within that is the belief in a me" So we have a belief in a belief about a belief. OK, phew! let's surface to reality. Do this exercise; look at an object. notice how mind instantly labels it. Put aside the label and focus on the experiencing of seeing. Where does the looking stop and the looked at start? Is there a dividing line? Stay with experiencing. Mind will say stuff but keep putting it aside and return to the experiencing happening. Is there actually any separation between the looker and the looked at ? Isn't there just looking, happening ?

lost in, sucked into the story without any awareness of that happening, like a programed habit.

Exactly ! This is how it happens. A smooth, well trained habit.
Now lets examine habit. It starts with a belief that is held to be true. That belief is repeated until it becomes unconscious. That is the brain is given permission to carry it out without conscious scrutiny. A very handy mechanism when it comes to tying shoelaces. Triggers, certain stimuli set it off and it seems to just happen. The neuronal connections in the brain get reinforced with each repetition.

but I know that I have read comments by awakened people that say that the self is a lie and does not exist at all.

You aren't qualified to interpret what awakened people mean (yet) ...and get this; There IS a self. It's a concept, a story. We are not about to kill this, it has uses. We are just going to see it for what it is. That's all.

oops, gotta run. Back in a few hours...
love

vince

[vinceschubert]

That's what gives me the feeling of being trapped

No it's not. It's the opinions and judgements about that, that give you the trapped feelings.
Reality says to you "I'll take care of everything, you just kick back and enjoy the ride." and your mind grabs it and says "that means I don't get a say in it. Shit, I'm trapped. Help!, let me out !!"
If you push the cell door, you'll find it unlocked.

That second self is still the same illusion that does not seem to want to go away...

We are not trying to get the story of self to go away or stop. This is important, we can't stop it. It will progressively disintegrate, Of it's own accord, as a result of being seen. Simply the light of examination is enough to evaporate it, but it's unlikely that you will wake up and see no sign of the story that you have invested years into developing.
But seeing it is fun. Seeing the stories yourself and others recite will give you much entertainment. Compassionate seeing.

like there is pleasure in suffering

i imagine that many people get pleasure from suffering. People feel alive, life is meaningful if you see yourself as a victim and you are suffering.

[seeyourself]

Where does the looking stop and the looked at start?

I see that there is no location for a stop and start...
I have had some kind of a shift, but it isn't about space or time of oneness. It is about noticing the games or dramas that Stu is involved in... while the noticing-ness is not involved. IOW, I am dramatizing my personality as usual, getting irritated or happy as usual... but, now, for the past couple of days, there is all of this drama, just being noticed. No change in personality, neurotic as ever :-), but but this is just being watched. This new shift, whatever it is, is not more loving or sane, no sense of wholeness or any of that nonduality stuff... just Watching.

Now I don't have "a feeling of being trapped". What is felt is more like noticing the same old drama (not reduced), but with only a constant mild interest or curiosity about it.
I have insomnia and was up all last night, which should have left me feeling bitter and trapped in a losing situation... but even though I felt lousy, I had no personal judgments about the event! I even felt a sense of self or "I" for a while, but there was just a mild interest in watching this rather than a negative judgment about failing to erase the"I":-)

I feel like there is lots of work to do, but not on "self"... like the work left to do is about just watching and seeing how things that are noticed, fit together! :-))

So should this new shift have bliss and joy and love and oneness in it? Or is an almost indifference about the play on the stage what awakening is all about?