So.. who wants to be my lucky guide? :-)

[Damon Kamda]

Exciting update indeed, thanks Ido.

It seems, however, that you're waiting for something dramatic to happen- some far-out mystical or at least extra-ordinary experience. That's entirely possible, yet what I'm trying to point your attention to is much, much simpler, yet much, much more fundamental than any passing state.

So please understand that this is not about sustaining some peak experience, but it is about seeing clearly and without a doubt, the actual nature of experience.

So I want you to look, right now (not reaching back to a memory of an intense experience):

Is there a self? Has there ever been?

[idolanuel]

No, I dont exist.

I can feel fear coming up my stomach when I ask that question. It is trying to protect the "I". It is a part of all that there is.

When the "I" falls, all other stories should fall as well, didn't happen yet.

Peace

[Damon Kamda]

When the "I" falls, all other stories should fall as well, didn't happen yet.

That's an assumption, Ido. Is that true?

I can feel fear coming up my stomach when I ask that question. It is trying to protect the "I". It is a part of all that there is.

Does the I need protection?
What is the I? What is it made of- what is its substance?

The first sentence in your post above was "I don't exist".

Now how can a non-existent I be part of all that there is?
How can a non-existent I be protected?

What's going on here?

[idolanuel]

Hey man,

"when the I falls, all other stories should fall as well is indeed as assumption :-)

Here are some latest thoughts:

"I need to break the illusion" - But, "I" IS the illusion, so.... There is no illusion at all?? there is no need to break the illusion?? Life itself want to break the illusion?! WHAT????

The substances of the "I" are anything that he identifies with. But, how can an illusion identifies with anything?? There is an identification. Does it not belong to the "I"?? Than what is it? WHO identifies? there is no one to identify.. or in other words.. WHAT????

If we know that there is an illusion, how can it not be a part of all that is?? even if its a lie, it is there - as a lie. WHO sees this lie?? no one, cause there is no one. Does it exist as a lie than or not?.. WHAATTTTTTT

As more as I think about it, I find that I can't ask anything, say anything, determine anything. There are too many ties, too many contradictions. No illusion, No "I", no one to break the illusion, nothing at all. I almost can't find any use in this investigation, as there is nothing to do there. It feels as if it is all wrong. WHATTT???

Peace

[Damon Kamda]

The substances of the "I" are anything that he identifies with. But, how can an illusion identifies with anything?? There is an identification. Does it not belong to the "I"?? Than what is it? WHO identifies? there is no one to identify.. or in other words.. WHAT????

Hahahahahaha....!
This is the crux, Ido.
So, what is "identification" really?
What is it? How does it actually work?

This is the core of the illusion. Can you see what's going on?

As more as I think about it, I find that I can't ask anything, say anything, determine anything. There are too many ties, too many contradictions. No illusion, No "I", no one to break the illusion, nothing at all. I almost can't find any use in this investigation, as there is nothing to do there. It feels as if it is all wrong. WHATTT???

Yes! It doesn't make any sense, does it? It's completely absurd, in fact.
Now can you relax in that absurdity for a moment and simply look...?
What is missing? What needs to change?

[idolanuel]

Hey man,

Here are somenew thoughts for now, as I couldn't understand the "identification" yet, nor to look beyond the absurdity of this moment:

Besides the "idetification", there is also "attention". I'm sometimes attentive to my thoughts and sometimes am not. Sometimes look at them, but usually get taken away by them. There is no one here to be attentive ofcourse, so what is this attention? Why is it sometimes there and sometimes not? What creates it? hmm...

All those things, all those ties - the Identification, the attention, the contradicitions... they are all created in the mind, who is the one who tries to solve them. Can he? I don't know. There is also no one to watch the mind, so how can someone be aware of it? It is the awareness itself from which the mind arises, who knows it. Should there be an answer at all to all of these questions? Isn't it a bypass way to see the truth? I don't know... more and more questions... more and more problems... I just don't know.

Peace

[idolanuel]

Oops, I didn't mean that this moment is absurd... I wanted to write "look beyond the absurdity FOR a moment" :-)

[Damon Kamda]

Oops, I didn't mean that this moment is absurd

Hahaha- well it is. Profoundly so. In fact, it doesn't make any sense whatsoever...

Thank you for your reply, and honestly sharing the thoughts that appear. It all seems so confusing, doesn't it? That in itself is quite telling. Once the idea of the self is being examined, thoroughly, which is what's happening, the fundamental confusion at the core of this self-story becomes apparent.

It's confusing because it's not real. It's an incoherent story, all tangled up. It makes no sense at all.

But let's get back to the experience of identification and attention, which in a way are the same process.

The conventional, common sense notion of identification is that there is an I, a self that can identify (or not) with certain objects. A subject and an object and a relation of identification. Same applies to the notion of attention. A self that can pay attention to an object.

Three aspects. Subject - relation - object.

I am identified with my job.
I am identified with an image in the mirror.
I am paying attention to these words.
I am experiencing this.

The funny and amazingly absurd thing is, Ido, that there is no basis for this notion in our actual experience at all. None whatsoever.

See?

So what is identification then?
What is attention?
What is experience?

How many levels to experience are there? How many dimension, poles, sides?

Right now- what is obvious? Just look- be honest - be simple.

[idolanuel]

Hey friend,

So identification is an illusionary concept, part of the whole illusion of seperate self. It seems as if it is there to justify or explain the story of the "I", by identifying with certain thing. "attention" is the same thing. Both are an active way of connecting an object and a subject, while there is no object seperate from any subject.

Falsly, this is the way that the mind understands experience - I experience something.

But there is no one who experiences - there is only an experience. Experience is just life coming to life, it is just what IS, seeing by the eyes of awareness which is also just IS.

All this being said, I feel like I'm now running out of questions.

Peace

[Damon Kamda]

All this being said, I feel like I'm now running out of questions.

Ok, that's quite interesting in itself, isn't it?

What do you think? Can you confirm that the illusion of separation has been seen through? Are you ready for our final questions???

[idolanuel]

I don't know... maybe... it just all looks so weird.
Maybe I would like to understand one or two more things before.

WHY? Why is it there if there is no one behind it? What's wrong at first place?

And, the famous trap. I want to first understand it before we continue.
Yesterday night I was walking alone in the street, and noticed that my thoughts took me on a trip. Fiirst thing that came up to mind than was "Why should I care, it is not me, I don't need to try and be attentive, there is no such thing. I don't need to try and do anything" - so.... ?? Should I stop my spiritual path right now? ofcourse not. "But it doesn't happen to anyone"... ??? How do we move through this?

Peace

[Damon Kamda]

I don't know... maybe... it just all looks so weird.
Maybe I would like to understand one or two more things before.

Ok. You're not going to like my answers, I'm afraid. Hehe...

WHY? Why is it there if there is no one behind it? What's wrong at first place?

Why is the illusion of self there?

Have you see the movie "Tree of Life"? I highly recommend it. It answers everything ;-)

There's a scene in there where a mother asks, in desperation and deep grief WHY her young son had to die.
The scene that follows is the only correct answer to any WHY question. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lkUBECRoAwM).

There's other, more poetic stories, but that's all they are in the end, Ido.

And, the famous trap. I want to first understand it before we continue.
Yesterday night I was walking alone in the street, and noticed that my thoughts took me on a trip. Fiirst thing that came up to mind than was "Why should I care, it is not me, I don't need to try and be attentive, there is no such thing. I don't need to try and do anything" - so.... ?? Should I stop my spiritual path right now? ofcourse not. "But it doesn't happen to anyone"... ??? How do we move through this?

All questions starting with "Should.." or "Shouldn't..." will very quickly stop losing their importance.

Let me ask you a question: do you make choices?

[idolanuel]

Haven't seen the tree of life. I will watch it now.

I dob't make choices because I is not there. There seems 2b a choice though. Choices are being made. Out of two or more options, one is being chosen. Maybe at first place there are no choices, anything that should be chosen is being chosen and the whole idea of choice is an illusion. I don't know.

[idolanuel]

On second thought,

We can leave those questions behind. Ofcourse that I will always try to do the best thing that will serve me and the others the most. The WHY question is irrelevant to the process. It will probably reveal itself soon (through the movie or any other way).

So, I'm ready for the final questions.
I do feel that I've seen through the illusion.

Peace :-)

[Damon Kamda]

The WHY question is irrelevant to the process. It will probably reveal itself soon (through the movie or any other way

It's not that the question is irrelevant per se. It's that in the *final* analysis, the question itself doesn't make any sense. IF it is seen that there is no separation anywhere, isolating a singular cause for a certain event is impossible. Of course, in a relative sense there is plenty of things to say about the how and why of the I-illusion. This is an important part of "the final questions" below.

Just take some time to check out in experience whatever wants to be said about these questions. Consider it as an invitation to rant a bit, that's what they are for.

1) Is there a 'me', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever? how about self, is there anything that is separate from everything else?

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works.

3) How does it feel to see this? Describe in detail.

4) How would you describe it to somebody who has never heard about this illusion but is curious about it?

5) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look? was there a specific moment when seeing happened or was it gradual? what exactly happened?