Circle without circumference

[Ilona]

Lovely to read your sharing. I can see that the process is going well.

Tell me, the sense of me, is it permanent or something that comes and goes? Where is it? When does it show up?
Is the sence YOU? Or something seen, known?

Is there I to awaken?
Is there a gateleas gate to cross?

Write what feels true

Love

[GabrielleDoe]

Tell me, the sense of me, is it permanent or something that comes and goes? Where is it?

The sense of me comes and goes. It condenses and releases, like a fist closing around something and then opening to reveal nothing thing. It is nowhere to be found. Even when it arises strongly, I look and it is not there. Like a fog that dissipates, or a sensation that has no centre.

When does it show up?

It shows up when there is dislike, discomfort, resistance. It says it has to get away, that 'I' need to make a decision to stop something happening. When there is delight, enjoyment, joy, there is freedom, it is not mine: that is easy to feel. Yesterday, when there was more aversion, the sense of me kept showing up. And I would watch it turn up, and I would watch it go. And then a turning towards the I that is watching, and seeing that fade, too.

Is the sence YOU?

No. It tries to convince me that it is me, but the argument feels weaker each time. Even an attempt to make myself believe in a sense of me doesn't work: the illusion can't be sustained. It is like a sandcastle trying to be built with wet sand. It doesn't stick. It keeps sliding back into the amorphous mass of awareness.

Or something seen, known?

YES - it is like feeling a thought or volition pass through awareness that is trying to convince of its existence. But it can be seen, it can be watched, it can be felt, it can be allowed to change. But it is not me, and it is not awareness.

Is there I to awaken?

No! How can there be an I if each of these volitions, each perception, each feeling, each thought, is so fleeting? The is no I to take a form, there is no I that can do anything -- cannot see all this, cannot speak, cannot perceive, cannot awaken. The bliss of this awareness is pure freedom - it holds all because there is no container.

Is there a gateleas gate to cross?

Ongoing unfolding means there is only a vastness that cannot be crossed or held. When resting in this space, or opening to this space, it is boundless -- infinitely small and large at the same time. All these forms condense within it at one moment, and the next minute are formless. An exhale: form condenses. An inhale: formless again. A dance, a flow. No gate to pass through. Only unfolding.

Gratitude for this seeing, gratitude for these words that nudge towards this awareness.

[Ilona]

Beautiful.
Is there any doubt? Or can you say with a big fat YES, it’s clear that I, as a separate self is an illusion?

Love

[GabrielleDoe]

There is no doubt. But there is fear.

How is that possible?

Over the last day and a half, the voices are so loud. Sometimes they are angry: 'Look! This is ME! Don't tell me I'm not here!' Sometimes they are crying, 'What do you mean I'm an illusion? How can this pain be an illusion?' All that can be done is allow them to be there, allow them to be seen, allow them to be known. They are known by awareness. But still there is pain there.

And then the fear comes. But if not these voices, if there is nothing to point to, what can be held onto? What can be relied on? How can life be measured or planned? And of course the answer is: it cannot. There is no decider, there is no control, there is no story to tell or to create moment to moment.

Sometimes in this space, in this vastness, there is liberation and boundlessness. But today there is fear. It moves and shifts also, it is not a thing in and of itself, but the overwhelming feeling is one of constriction, of wanting to shrink and disappear.

So this fear must be gathering around a desire to propagate a sense of me. It must still be there, fuelling the fear.

[Ilona]

Fear is protecting something. Find out what is that and if that still needs this protection.

http://markedeternal.blogspot.com/2014/ ... ation.html Here is something to read.
Write what you have found behind the door.


Love.

[GabrielleDoe]

Sitting with the fear in my body. A big block, on the right hand side of my torso, wedged beneath my ribs, pushed up against my lung. It doesn't move. It doesn't change. Can't go through it, can't go behind it. Can't force it to change. Sitting, breathing. Soften around it, allow it to be, make friends with it. But it doesn't move.

After getting up, walking around, going through my day, there are shifts. Anger erupts. Resentment. They are strong, but none of them are constant. At a certain point, the pressure breaks and there is open expansiveness. I don't feel like I did anything. I didn't make friends with it. I didn't bring kindness to it. I didn't ask it what it needed. On its own, it changed. No 'it' at all. Nothing behind the door.

Later there is resistance again. A pulling in my body, a constriction, a resistance. It moves and shifts. It is there to be witnessed, to make itself known.

But it returns. Even when it lifts, when it rolls on its belly and exposes its emptiness, when I see there is nothing behind the door. Later, without warning, a pressure, a resistance, is back again.

Knowing that these sensations are empty does not stop the sensations. Feeling the impermanence of sensations in the body does not mean the sensations are not felt.

Write what you have found behind the door.

A separate self is an illusion, but sensations will still arise. They are strong in force and might, but they do not belong to a me. Even when they are howling like a strong wind, or pulling tight like a boa constrictor, they can be weathered and allowed; they can be witnessed without being owned.

[GabrielleDoe]

Writing this after a long night and a morning sit.

Waking up in the night with the pull of anxiety, the constriction, the tightness. And breathing with it, breathing with it, breathing with it. Gently looking behind it. Again, and then again.

And then it breaks. Like a ray of light through a crack. In no time, the tightness has gone. Only space. Sleep again.

This morning, more anxiety, more pressure. Sitting with it. Breathing with it.

Where am I in this anxiety? Is this pressure mine? Is there an I that can make this go away? That can choose to respond? No: the answer is clear. It is not me, it is not mine.

So what is it? What is happening?

Slowly the answer dawns. It is a sacred task to feel these sensations. To welcome them into experience to be felt. Yes, of course they will keep coming. They will arise again and again, asking to be felt, to be known, to be experienced.

They are not mine. They do not have an essential nature. But they must be fully felt. They will not kill this body, they will not break the mind. Past experiences of not being able to be with pain or anxiety swoop back into consciousness and I know now something has shifted. There is not a 'me' that needs to be strong enough to hold all this. There is no 'me' with a responsibility to do something. There is only meeting experience, again and again.

Now a lightness, a buoyancy. A high vibration through the body. A brightness, a levity. Boundless possibility and freedom.

There is no more doubt.

Is there any doubt? Or can you say with a big fat YES, it’s clear that I, as a separate self is an illusion?

The separate self is an illusion. The separate mind is an illusion. This mind is released.

[Ilona]

Awwww, beautiful....

How’s does it feel to see this?
What has changed in normal everyday experience since the start of this conversation?
What hasn’t changed?

What is the main difference?

Love.

[GabrielleDoe]

How’s does it feel to see this?

It is quietly extraordinary. On one hand, nothing has changed. Still in the same place, with the same tendencies of the mind. And yet, it's like knowing a secret, a different way of seeing things that shifts perspective.

What has changed in normal everyday experience since the start of this conversation?

At the start of this conversation, this truth was known intellectually but not felt. So, when there was a strong experience of aversion or constriction, I just tumbled into old patterns of identifying with the feelings and being pulled along by the river.

This morning, upon waking, the voices in my head started up again. Usually they propel me into movement, or doing, or trying to answer or fix them. Now there is a way to undermine them, to look behind, to challenge and say: 'really? is that really true?'. And in that, they lose their power. They are like small children tugging at my skirt -- they think they are important, and they do need attending, but they are not me.

There is still a residue of sensation that needs attending, to be allowed to change -- it's important not to cut that off. But it is not attended in the same way. I know that what is being felt isn't 'me', and 'I' don't need to roll up my sleeves to fix it. Holding it in awareness is enough.

What hasn’t changed?

The sensations still arise. The voices still make themselves known. Habits of mind continue. Even pain, resistance, anger, fear will arise. This is what is so freeing. I could not believe anyone who said these things would just STOP. They are experiences that exist in the universe, so they will arise. But the way they are felt, the way they are believed or engaged with, is completely different.

What is the main difference?

There is no fear of a 'me' coming back again. Of course, it will try -- the habit has been happening for a long time, and already the voices are trying to argue to be scared, or to worried, or to doubt. But they are now voices arising in awareness, rather than my voices. They are habits and experiences that arise, but it is not my responsibility to sort them out. They will shift and change on their own accord when they are held in awareness. A great relief in that, in knowing there is no project of me. That each time sensations arise and try to argue that they need to be listened to, there is an answer: sit in the silence.

[Ilona]

Thank you for clear answers.
Would you say you are ready for the final questions?

Love

[GabrielleDoe]

Yes, I'm ready for the final questions.

There continues to be this quiet extraordinariness. Particularly in the mornings, when the voices are at their loudest; nothing needs to be done. No arguing back, no following them down the rabbit hole.

The strongest change is in the doubting voice, the one that says 'nothing has been seen', 'the old ways are real'. There is now a quiet confidence that whatever happens, whatever habits or voices try to challenge this seeing, they have no hold. There is a deep trusting in what has been seen and felt. That it cannot be unseen.

Yesterday, somewhere 'I' didn't want to be. Each time aversion arose, the question back was: 'really?' 'What would be different if the place was different, the conversation, the activity? Where else is there to go?' Realising there is nowhere to be but here, staying with what is, allowing it to change, allowing things to unfold. Nothing to argue, nothing to force. And nothing missing. Everything happens by itself.

[Ilona]

Everything happens by itself.
Sweet!

Here are the questions :)

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it ufully as you see it now.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

5) Can you talk about decision, intention, free will, choice and control? What makes things happen? How does it work? What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.

6) Anything to add?

Please answer in full, when ready.

Much love.

[GabrielleDoe]

Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

There is not, never was, a separate entity of a self or a me. It's extraordinary and ordinary that there never was. What is present now is seeing the habits, the streams of thoughts, the sensations, that coalesce, and then added to that the volitional thought that all these belong to someone or something. Looking back over years, back to childhood, seeing how different experiences coalesce and collect, solidifying day after day. Like a sandcastle being built; a scoop of sand sculpted, added, shaped until there is an illusion of a whole. Usually this was experienced as a me, with my body, thoughts, feelings. And then, over the past few years, layers started to peel away: recognising the body is not mine, the thoughts are not mine, the feelings are not mine. But still a me that was perceiving all this, recognising it, owning it.

Until now, over the past few days, finally finding nothing behind the awareness. No need for ownership of each of these traits, or habits, or sensations. The sandcastle starting to slip into the sea, until finally there is no form left at all; that there never was a centre or an observer or a watcher, just awareness.

Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

The illusion of the separate self starts in the mind. First there is a thought, a story, generally of something not wanted or not liked. Then there is a sensation in the body that matches the thought. Sometimes they arise so closely together it's not clear which comes first. But then they exist together, and then the view manifests that there is a me feeling and thinking. So something like:

'I don't want to get out of bed and go to work'. A conceptual thought, related to a heaviness in the body and a constriction in the chest, which forms into a story that ties present experience to an imagined future. If continued, this further solidifies to stories about the past: 'I always feel like this in the morning,' and imagined stories about the future: 'What if I always feel like this?' Further thoughts and sensations layer on top, until there is a whole mass of resistance.

To see through the illusion is to peel back the layers. First, drawing back from the future to now: all that can be known is now. The future cannot be seen, guessed, supposed. Then drawing back from the past to now: these are stories, none of them true, about 'how it was'. Nothing can be known about how it was: that knowing is not present now. So then there is sensation in the body: constriction in the chest, heaviness or weight. The words 'I don't want to get out of bed and go to work' become like echoes; a voice is saying them, but it is an old recording. It is not me. Finally, only being with the sensation of constriction. Breathing with it, breathing in, breathing out. Feeling underneath, behind, the constriction, towards the centre -- a centre cannot be found. A generating entity cannot be found. The separate self is only an illusion.

How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

Freedom in this seeing. Freedom is the letting go of the fear of seeing this truth. Freedom is the allowing of sensations to be present without pushing them away, without adding a layer of resistance on top. Freedom is knowing there is not a me who has to fix all this.

When I started this dialogue, I knew the self was an illusion, but there was still a feeling of being responsible for the seeing, or owning the desire to change, or the need to become more aware. Over the past few days, the seeing has allowed that last layer to drop. There is no I to take control. There is unfolding, but there is not a me that is unfolding. Someone asked me today if I would keep deepening this questioning in my future meditations. 'I don't know,' I answered. 'I don't know what 'I' will do, I don't know what will happen, I don't know what will unfold.' There is curiosity, openness, but no agenda.

A tremendous relief that I do not have a plan, that I cannot say what will happen. That there is no need to buy into old stories. That there is always endless capacity to meet whatever arises, whatever arises. Nothing cannot be met, nothing cannot be held.

It is quite extraordinary how sensations do not stop or do not arise, but that there is no need to do anything to them. They only need to be held in awareness.

What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

Seeing that the sensations are not mine. Sitting with the sensations has been a practice for a long time, but they have always been 'my' sensations or 'my' habits, and the view it is 'my' practice to sit with them. Through looking, being with, looking behind, looking underneath, there is a seeing there is no me, and no mine, at all. Being with constriction, and dropping the idea that there is any problem with it being as it is, is liberating. Being with resistance, and dropping the idea that there is a me that I need to change my relationship with it, is freeing. Seeing does not mean sensation goes away, that the voices go away. But there is no need to believe them anymore. They can come, everything can come, but it cannot prove a me.

Can you talk about decision, intention, free will, choice and control? What makes things happen? How does it work? What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.

This question makes me smile. Still there is a feeling of wanting to have control, or wanting decisions can be made. Intention manifests as a push in the body, just as resistance manifests as a constriction. Choice is an illusion of preference; a belief in a me that wants one thing over another. This experience happens when thoughts arise in the mind in conjunction with sensations in the body; a conceptual projection into the future based on a sensation in the body moving towards something. This can be a simple desire for a meal (noodles in miso broth for me), that then becomes a thought of wanting to eat noodles, with a sensation in the belly or the torso of reaching outwards. Then the illusion that I can seek out these noodles; decide where to go, sit down, order them, and eat them.

Actually what happens is the arising of sensation in conjunction with the arising of thought, which propels the body towards a place to sit down, in which a menu appears, after which the noodles appear. An illusion of control allows me to think I have made the noodles come to me, when in fact I have no control over whether the noodles appear or not. In fact, I don't even have the choice of ordering the noodles or of wanting the noodles; these all arise on their own, with no 'me' to call them into being.

In more complex experiences, such as making a difficult or complex decision, the illusion of responsibility comes in more strongly. Wanting to weigh up different options, such as whether to take job or not, or help someone or not, all come out of a projecting forward imagined scenarios and guessing what will happen. It's all fantasy. Instead, all that can happen is staying with what is present in this exact moment, and allowing the next thing to arise. Peeling back resistance or a desire to fast forward. Each time the push of craving or intention arises, breathing into it and settling back into what is at this exact moment.

What are you responsible for?

Without an I to be responsible, there isn't anything to be responsible for. However, it's necessary to acknowledge the uses of conversation, of words, of thoughts, of form, of conceptions, and how others engage in each of these. So there is a responsibility to continue to be open to communicate, to connect, to not be separate or perpetuate the view of separateness. But any of this would only be a perpetuation of self! So all there is to be done is to continue to open to experience, to the being-ness in front, beside, inside. Opening up to the moment will allow deciding to happen.

6) Anything to add?

The most nuanced seeing that has shifted everything is: there is no me to decide, or to make an endless project of a self. There is tremendous relief in allowing all the habits, sensations, doubts and fears to roll on, without any opposition but also without any propagation. For so long there was a waiting for them to stop, a resistance to them being there, a wanting things to be different. Or at least a wanting me to be different in relation to them. And now seeing: nothing to be done. No need to find somewhere better to be, someone better to be. Resting back in such ease, with the greatest trust that everything is unfolding just as it is.

[Ilona]

Thank you so much for clear answers. As you may notice, this is just a beginning, an opening. There will be many more things to explore and insights that will blow your mind. For now, let this settle and as you rightly notice, it’s all happening.. enjoy the ride!

If anything comes up that is too strong and you may need some help, I’m here, you can write to me. Also, if you feel like giving back at some point, please consider guiding here on the forum. It’s a great way to deepen this seeing and you get to walk with someone else and ask questions that you haven’t asked before.

Hope to see you around,

Sending love

[GabrielleDoe]

Thank you so much for your guidance. Yes, this is just a beginning. The voices of doubt still arise, and will continue to arise. But now they do not need to be listened to as if they are true!

Small insights and experiences take on a new sheen and context with this new seeing and feeling. I will keep noticing, keep going with the journey.

Thank you for inviting me to write to you if I need help. I also have friends who have gone through the process, and talking and sharing with them is helpful.

Let's see what unfolds; if guiding presents itself as the next step, I will get back in touch.

Many thanks, Ilona. Love to you, also.