Need guidance

[Olof]

You need to spend most of your time looking this way. Looking at the inner, passively, while doing nothing. Try not to think about thoughts. FOCUS. If you can, be in a quiet place, going outside late in the evening where there is no people is a very good location. Avoid music or anything else that stimulates the mind.

Where is the self?

Dont search for additional information, dont search in the outer world. Just keep looking until you get it.

[Olof]

I want you to seriously do this before you write here. Then tell me what you find. Can you be like this for one hour?

[Olof]

Whats happening Santosh? How is it going?

[santosh]

Whats happening Santosh? How is it going?

I was trying what you told. That is to "be present". I could be present for not more than 20 or 30 seconds. Even when I was present, the feeling that me is watching the fan running, sounds coming from the road or sound of construction happening in next house was there. I did this for some time may be half an hour and in that time thoughts were flying everywhere. It was difficult to bring to the present moment.

I still have doubts about how to be present. Do I have to be bring thoughts back to present when it strays from the present moment. But that would mean I am controlling the thoughts. Tell me man.

[Olof]

Whats happening Santosh? How is it going?

I was trying what you told. That is to "be present". I could be present for not more than 20 or 30 seconds. Even when I was present, the feeling that me is watching the fan running, sounds coming from the road or sound of construction happening in next house was there. I did this for some time may be half an hour and in that time thoughts were flying everywhere. It was difficult to bring to the present moment.

I still have doubts about how to be present. Do I have to be bring thoughts back to present when it strays from the present moment. But that would mean I am controlling the thoughts. Tell me man.

You can be present all the time. It doesnt matter if thoughts come all the time, you just let them pass. The difference is not getting absorbed by them. Its like watching them from third perspective. You can never stop or control the thoughts, because that which you refer to as you is a mental concept that points to nothing.

That which you refer to as you, is among the thoughts that you are trying to watch. Try again, sit still, dont move, have your eyes open but relaxed, just watch the thoughts rise and whatever they say. What is aware of awareness?


Thinking point:
Watch that which you see as watching.

[santosh]

You can be present all the time. It doesnt matter if thoughts come all the time, you just let them pass. The difference is not getting absorbed by them. Its like watching them from third perspective. You can never stop or control the thoughts, because that which you refer to as you is a mental concept that points to nothing.

That which you refer to as you, is among the thoughts that you are trying to watch. Try again, sit still, dont move, have your eyes open but relaxed, just watch the thoughts rise and whatever they say. What is aware of awareness?

Thinking point:
Watch that which you see as watching.

I tried again two or three times. First thing by your statement tha "You can never stop or control the thoughts, because that which you refer to as you is a mental concept that points to nothing" one of my doubts about controlling thought got cleared intellectually. Since when 'you' itself is a thought how can a thought control a thought.

Today morning I laid down in bed for an hour looking in a relaxed manner. Here is what I observed:

1. During the period few times I got absorbed in thought, I brought it back to present moment.

2. One of the main series of thoughts which are creating problem is what I call as 'teaching thought'- I keep recollecting what you told about relaxing and letting thoughts pass by or what Olof said about watching the thoughts or how to be present moment or the thought about how now noise of thoughts is less. I feel these commentary of subtle thoughts in itself is taking me away from the present moment.

3. I still don't know how to 'watch a thought'. I able to recollect or observe a thought after it has passed or after it drifted me from the present moment and then I would realise that and come back. But, how to watch a thought from a background and see them when they arise is what I am not able to understand.

I was watching the white ceiling while laying down in bed today morning and I imagined the background inside me also to be white and told myself "OK, lets watch thoughts pass by against this white background of awareness or whatever". But when thoughts come I am nowhere there to notice or see them pass by, I realise that only after they have already passed by. So, any guidance on that.

[Olof]

I tried again two or three times. First thing by your statement tha "You can never stop or control the thoughts, because that which you refer to as you is a mental concept that points to nothing" one of my doubts about controlling thought got cleared intellectually. Since when 'you' itself is a thought how can a thought control a thought.

Exactly. It's an automatic process. So is the beating of your heart, the pumping of your blood, the secretion of sweat and saliva, the movement of your muscles, the thinking of thoughts, the response to external situations. This is the same automatic process that is shining the stars and revolving the planets around the sun.

Today morning I laid down in bed for an hour looking in a relaxed manner. Here is what I observed:

1. During the period few times I got absorbed in thought, I brought it back to present moment.

2. One of the main series of thoughts which are creating problem is what I call as 'teaching thought'- I keep recollecting what you told about relaxing and letting thoughts pass by or what Olof said about watching the thoughts or how to be present moment or the thought about how now noise of thoughts is less. I feel these commentary of subtle thoughts in itself is taking me away from the present moment.

Just watch thought as thought, it doesn't matter what they say. It doesn't matter what kind of feeling that arises. Watch them all objectively for what they are, thoughts, it doesn't matter what they say. If thoughts arise about the subject of what you should or not do, what I said or didn't say, then watch that too. If they say you are absorbed in thought, watch that. Just see how it happends from a third perspective. Can you see the untested assumption you make all the time about a thinker of these thoughts?

3. I still don't know how to 'watch a thought'. I able to recollect or observe a thought after it has passed or after it drifted me from the present moment and then I would realise that and come back. But, how to watch a thought from a background and see them when they arise is what I am not able to understand.

Good point, as everything is a happening, you can only interpret the thoughts with the use of memory. Memory in turn, links these thoughts to the memory based mind made construction of the separate self. You can notice them as they happen, but interpretation of them requires memory. That makes you more absorbed in form.

A problem we have today is that we are too absorbed in form, i.e. thoughts and physical objects. But they are always momentarily. They disintegrate. The unmanifested manifests different things.

I was watching the white ceiling while laying down in bed today morning and I imagined the background inside me also to be white and told myself "OK, lets watch thoughts pass by against this white background of awareness or whatever". But when thoughts come I am nowhere there to notice or see them pass by, I realise that only after they have already passed by. So, any guidance on that.

So the mind made self said "ok, lets watch thoughts, of which myself is one". You shouldn't really see it as a background of awareness as that can easily be interpreted as another escape for the existence of the self. The self is only an imaginary construct based on thoughts (mostly memory). Reality is, and thoughts and actions just happen by themselves. You can say that the universe does it there where you are. Its not personal.

"You" notice them only after they have passed by, because "you" is in itself a thought. Thats why it can never percieve whatever happends in real time. The you links the memory of the thought to the necessary memories that make up the you. If you play a sport or dance for example, and is completely absorbed in the activity, you just do, it doesn't require a you inside the head. It's what's called flow, a happening, without thought.

This is the way you really work all the time in life, its only that the mind made self comes in between, its an addition on top of this flow, it clouds your perception and makes it feel like you are separate from whatever happends.

Just continue staring at the mind. Can you see how the thoughts arise from nowhere? Can you see how the I thought links itself to other thoughts, how it is a mental concept that isn't really pointing to anything of real substance?

[santosh]

Good point, as everything is a happening, you can only interpret the thoughts with the use of memory. Memory in turn, links these thoughts to the memory based mind made construction of the separate self. You can notice them as they happen, but interpretation of them requires memory. That makes you more absorbed in form.


Still I have doubt. How to watch or notice a thought when it is happening. Because as I said I am able to realise that only after the thought story has gone on for some time.

So my question is, if watching means to see the thought simultaneously has it is happening , then how to do that.

Just continue staring at the mind. Can you see how the thoughts arise from nowhere? Can you see how the I thought links itself to other thoughts, how it is a mental concept that isn't really pointing to anything of real substance?

I am not able to notice thought when it is rising because after the thought gone for maybe 5 or 10 seconds then only I realise that I have drifted. And then I able to recollect what was that thought about, not in the starting. Maybe I have not reached that stage.

[santosh]

Ignore my earlier post, quotes were not placed correctly.

Good point, as everything is a happening, you can only interpret the thoughts with the use of memory. Memory in turn, links these thoughts to the memory based mind made construction of the separate self. You can notice them as they happen, but interpretation of them requires memory. That makes you more absorbed in form.

Still I have doubt. How to watch or notice a thought when it is happening. Because as I said I am able to realise that only after the thought story has gone on for some time.

So my question is, if watching means to see the thought simultaneously has it is happening , then how to do that.

Just continue staring at the mind. Can you see how the thoughts arise from nowhere? Can you see how the I thought links itself to other thoughts, how it is a mental concept that isn't really pointing to anything of real substance?

[/quote]

I am not able to notice thought when it is rising because after the thought gone for maybe 5 or 10 seconds then only I realise that I have drifted. And then I able to recollect what was that thought about, not in the starting. Maybe I have not reached that stage.[/quote]

[Olof]

You cant watch thought with thought mate. When you say you have driften, do you mean you fell away from what you were supposed to do? Your identification with thought is really strong if you see it like that. Just drop it all. Thoughts rise independently of you, they just rise. Just try to see them without interpretation/condemnation/analysis. Just look at them happening witout trying to understand what they are about. Like looking with your eyes without labeling the things you see.

The eyes see by themselves, its not a you who sees.
The ears hear by themselves, theres not a you who hears.
The thoughts rise by themselves, theres not a you who thinks the thoughts.

The you is more thoughts, which rise by themselves, in the moment.

Keep staring at the mind, thats whats gonna help you realize this, it might feel like you are getting nowhere, but it always does in the beginning, then you might start feeling scared or like you are going crazy, but dont be put of, keep at it man. Everything is gonna make sense.

[santosh]

You cant watch thought with thought mate. When you say you have driften, do you mean you fell away from what you were supposed to do? Your identification with thought is really strong if you see it like that. Just drop it all. Thoughts rise independently of you, they just rise. Just try to see them without interpretation/condemnation/analysis. Just look at them happening witout trying to understand what they are about. Like looking with your eyes without labeling the things you see.

When I say drifting it means that I am supposed to watch the thought rising/happening, instead for some seconds I was inside the thought or that thought was only there. Then I came back to the present moment.

You say that "Just look at them happening without trying to understand what they are about".
1. How to look at a thought when it is going because at that moment it only is there and nothing else.
2. The question is how to become the passive observer overlooking the thought.
3. And what or who is this observer, if there is one, although I have not reached that observer stage, just for curiosity I am asking.

Keep staring at the mind, thats whats gonna help you realize this, it might feel like you are getting nowhere, but it always does in the beginning, then you might start feeling scared or like you are going crazy, but dont be put of, keep at it man. Everything is gonna make sense.

Please don't mind my pestering you with this, I want to understand it more before I really go full steam with this.
And off course I do get lots of doubts.
So other minor problems I am facing is this;
1. For one minute or so in the starting of observing, I dont get any thoughts. Is it natural or my mind is playing games?
2. Many of the times I tend to get sleep withing two or three minutes. Is it natural in the start?

[santosh]

Please ignore my earlier reply. Again problem with quotes.

You cant watch thought with thought mate. When you say you have driften, do you mean you fell away from what you were supposed to do? Your identification with thought is really strong if you see it like that. Just drop it all. Thoughts rise independently of you, they just rise. Just try to see them without interpretation/condemnation/analysis. Just look at them happening witout trying to understand what they are about. Like looking with your eyes without labeling the things you see.

When I say drifting it means that I am supposed to watch the thought rising/happening, instead for some seconds I was inside the thought or that thought was only there. Then I came back to the present moment.

You say that "Just look at them happening without trying to understand what they are about".
1. How to look at a thought when it is going because at that moment it only is there and nothing else.
2. The question is how to become the passive observer overlooking the thought.
3. And what or who is this observer, if there is one, although I have not reached that observer stage, just for curiosity I am asking.

Keep staring at the mind, thats whats gonna help you realize this, it might feel like you are getting nowhere, but it always does in the beginning, then you might start feeling scared or like you are going crazy, but dont be put of, keep at it man. Everything is gonna make sense.

Please don't mind my pestering you with this, I want to understand it more before I really go full steam with this.
And off course I do get lots of doubts.
So other minor problems I am facing is this;
1. For one minute or so in the starting of observing, I dont get any thoughts. Is it natural or my mind is playing games?
2. Many of the times I tend to get sleep withing two or three minutes. Is it natural in the start?

[Olof]

Watching the mind this way really makes you sleepy, yes, me too. Its because you let go, thats the only way to fall asleep, i.e. allowing the process to just happen on its own. Theres nothing you can do to sleep right? Trying to sleep only makes it much harder. The eyes work the same way, just relax and allow them to work on their own, and they work most efficiently. When "you" try to do things, they really only get worse, and if its a project, you have to motivate yourself - instead of working by inspiration.

Motivation: Doing something because you want something to happen
Inspiration: Doing for the fun of doing it.

This is one of the differences between being identified by thoughts and not.

When I say drifting it means that I am supposed to watch the thought rising/happening, instead for some seconds I was inside the thought or that thought was only there. Then I came back to the present moment.

You say that "Just look at them happening without trying to understand what they are about".
1. How to look at a thought when it is going because at that moment it only is there and nothing else.
2. The question is how to become the passive observer overlooking the thought.
3. And what or who is this observer, if there is one, although I have not reached that observer stage, just for curiosity I am asking.

When you watch thoughts, what do you see yourself as? Theres just noticing the thoughts. What I'm trying to help you do is break the complete identification with form.

Ultimately you are the empty moment where all form rise.

But reality gets too absorbed in the world of form. The thoughts talk to themselves the way we would speak with another person. They do this all the time, but with thoughts instead of words. This makes us think that there actually is a person to talk to inside the head.

The thoughts talk to themeslves. Chains of reasoning follow from thoughts. The you in this part is the assumption we have been talking about during this entire thread.

When you say or think: "I am that" its always an extension of the mind. Something for the mind to identify with. When we talk about "I am" as truth, it points to that the world is an eternal empty moment where matter, thoughts, feelings, and the illusion of time arise. Time is a concept we create inside our head in order to keep track of changes. Really, its always the now, but the forms continuously change in this moment.

There is no stage to reach, because when you talk like that, you refer to a stage to reach for the self. As the self can never be this watcher, it can never "learn" how to do it. It is the self that we want to watch objectively. Life is the observer, the current moment is watching the thoughts. When you get some distance, you are going to laugh a lot at what the thoughts say.

When watching thoughts, you can use some tricks that can help you get drawn out from the absorbtion in the mind. For example, feel how it is to be aware of awareness. Sit like that for a while, be aware of awareness. Where is the self when you do that?

[santosh]

When watching thoughts, you can use some tricks that can help you get drawn out from the absorbtion in the mind. For example, feel how it is to be aware of awareness. Sit like that for a while, be aware of awareness. Where is the self when you do that?

I was trying this present moment awareness. Just being present, being aware of the room and mainly of sounds coming, sound of the fan running, clock ticking, dog barking in the neighbourhood and of traffic in the road. I was aware of being aware of all this, but I was aware of myself also. Its bit confusing.

Whenever that transition from awareness to "being aware of awareness" was taking place, it was thought which was telling it to do. So I guess thought is meddling in between.

At other times when being in the present moment "being aware of awareness" looked very natural, but it was for a very very short time. Maybe that is the reason that in those very shorts moments also the presence of a self was felt. I guess again thoughts must be rushing in quickly, that's why I could not feel the absence of self.

[santosh]

Hi. Where are you? No response from some days. Held up somewhere?