Take me away

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Bengo
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Re: Take me away

Postby Bengo » Mon Aug 12, 2019 7:43 am

Dear Vivien,
I’m not 100% convinced by your replies. Since you say: ‘not really’, and not just simply ‘no’.
:) words...
Is there a little bit of hesitation or doubt with ‘really’?
Can you say NO with 100% EXPERIENTIAL certainty to those questions?
Yes. By "not really" I mean "not in reality". That is to say that, of course, there is still the semblance of self, as a mere reflection of mind, thoughts, memory, etc.
Not much searching/seeking or not at all?
What is it that you are still searching/seeking for?
What is missing?
I'm seeking to better align some aspects of life, that's all. Nothing fundamental, really.
Nothing's missing.
“it’s a matter of acceptance” – acceptance by what?
What is it that has no choice, but can accept this?
Sure, there is no choice and no acceptance, in fact.

Ben

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Vivien
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Location: Australia

Re: Take me away

Postby Vivien » Tue Aug 13, 2019 12:01 am

Hi Ben,

Thank you for your explanation.

Please answer the following questions with some detail please, and answer what's true for you rather than any sort of 'ideal' answer. Also please provide examples where asked.

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form?
Was there ever?

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience.
Describe it fully as you see it now.

3) How does it feel to see this?
What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over; made you look?

5) a) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work?
Give examples from your own recent experiences to how things happen and how things work.

b) What are you responsible for? Give examples from your own recent experiences to how this works.

How does it FEEL now that you have had the realisation?

6) Anything to add?


Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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Bengo
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Re: Take me away

Postby Bengo » Tue Aug 13, 2019 2:09 am

Dear Vivien,
1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form?
Was there ever?
No. There is none and there has never been such an entity.
2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience.
Describe it fully as you see it now
The illusion starts early in life when thoughts arise about one's perceptions, such as of a body, hunger, needs, which are are put in relation to everything that is perceived as falling outside that imagined personal sphere or realm. Life thus becomes that impossible struggle of I in and vs. this world, which gets clad by a heavy cultural straitjacket family and society at large hold ready to impart on every their member in a celebrated cult of the individual. The self is then seen and a sense of it corroborated in every one's own and other's actions, and the entire facade of thought illusions that follows from such perceived separations. An empty mind game of thoughts, memories, expectations. Fear of self destruction (no self) underpins it all. That fear keeps reality hidden, and from revealing itself. Piercing through that fear and sad charade holds the solution.
3) How does it feel to see this?
What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.
It's a sobering sight. It's also a relief. It's a direct, experiential insight that differs from the held belief about no-self prior to starting this dialogue. Compared to before, seeking somehow stopped.
4) What was the last bit that pushed you over; made you look?
Most crucial was the realization that what was previously viewed as awareness, witness, decision-maker, etc. is not some deep or higher self, but merely part of the thought illusion. Absent that, there is no self to refer to. It's as simple as that.
5) a) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work?
Give examples from your own recent experiences to how things happen and how things work.
Decision, intention, free will, choice and control are illusory creations made by thoughts that interweave in relation to perception. They create that movie-like sense of life and living, in which self fights its battles for survival. For example, take a seeming decision to spend the weekend at home, rather than driving to a beach resort. That decision springs out of a stream of thoughts weighing the pros and cons about various factors, and eventually a formulated choice of going or not. One would thus feel in control of spending the weekend at the beach, out of free will, but this is not so. For, upon looking, there is no evidence at all about any of these thoughts relating to a decision being made, at first, and the body actually not going to the beach when time comes. All that is seen is a whole lot of thoughts surrounding a body at home, that's it, and that has nothing to do with decision, free will, choice or you have it. It's all but a movie.
b) What are you responsible for? Give examples from your own recent experiences to how this works.
Nothing really. How could one be if one lacks free will? For example, my non-decision to not going to the beach makes me not responsible for whatever happened at home instead.
How does it FEEL now that you have had the realisation?
I feel nothing in particular. I wear the imagined self as if it were an old pullover on naked skin or less, no more than that.
6) Anything to add?
I am most grateful to you, dear Vivien, for guidance and support.

Ben

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Vivien
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Location: Australia

Re: Take me away

Postby Vivien » Tue Aug 13, 2019 2:21 am

Hi Ben,
Thank you for answering the questions. I have some more, if you don’t mind.
I wear the imagined self as if it were an old pullover on naked skin or less, no more than that.
What is it that is wearing the imagined self as if it were an old pullover?

And I asked these before but could you please answer them again:

Did you experience any shift in perspective, even if it didn’t last?
If yes, could you please write a bit about it?

What has changed since the start of conversation, what hasn’t? – please talk about your feelings
I am most grateful to you, dear Vivien, for guidance and support.
You are very welcome :)

Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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Bengo
Posts: 74
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Re: Take me away

Postby Bengo » Tue Aug 13, 2019 10:09 am

Dear Vivien,
What is it that is wearing the imagined self as if it were an old pullover?
The I we are using here for conversation. The I that seemingly exists but does not.
Did you experience any shift in perspective, even if it didn’t last?
If yes, could you please write a bit about it?
A shift in perspective came with the realization that there is no self even as awareness, which I described earlier. That leaves no space for the self to hide and its inexistence is seen clearly.
What has changed since the start of conversation, what hasn’t? – please talk about your feelings
What changed is the perception of no self, which I find easier now to corroborate from an experiential perspective. As for feelings, there's not much I can write about really in terms of change.

Ben

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Vivien
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Location: Australia

Re: Take me away

Postby Vivien » Wed Aug 14, 2019 1:19 am

Hi Ben,

Thank you for your responses. I am going to get other guides to have a look at the thread to ensure that I have covered everything and that my pointing has been clear. This may take a day or so. Sometimes, not always, the other guides may have further questions which I will bring to you.

Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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Vivien
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Location: Australia

Re: Take me away

Postby Vivien » Wed Aug 14, 2019 2:08 am

Hi Ben,

One of the guides has some questions for you.

Could you please tell the exact point in the conversation when the shift happened?

What it is that's looking at the computer display as you read this post, without expressing it as "no one is looking at it"?


Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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Bengo
Posts: 74
Joined: Sun Jun 16, 2019 2:59 pm

Re: Take me away

Postby Bengo » Wed Aug 14, 2019 2:38 am

Dear Vivien,
Could you please tell the exact point in the conversation when the shift happened?
First, when I realized that there is no self making decisions (in reference to making tea), and then when I realized that there is no self in the form of awareness.
What it is that's looking at the computer display as you read this post, without expressing it as "no one is looking at it"?
(In reality) there is no looking at a display and there is no guides to be responding to. What's (not) keying in these words is the very same that is (not) asking these questions.

Ben

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Vivien
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Location: Australia

Re: Take me away

Postby Vivien » Wed Aug 14, 2019 3:43 am

Hi Ben,

There are no further questions for you. Congratulations for seeing through the self and for your persistent looking. It has been a pleasure to explore the concept of the separate self with you. Thank you for being open and willing to look.

Keep an eye out for an email notification notifying you of a PM (private message) from the forum inviting you to join our aftercare groups on Facebook. If you don't receive an email notification, you can access your PM's from the forum once you have logged in. The PM also details other resources available to you. Your username will change from green to blue which indicates that you have had the realisation of there being no separate self.

You can contact me at any time if you have any questions via private message here on the forum, or via Facebook if you decide to join our groups there.

Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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Bengo
Posts: 74
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Re: Take me away

Postby Bengo » Wed Aug 14, 2019 7:04 am

Dear Vivien,

Thank you for generously guiding me through this process. I truly appreciate.

Best wishes,
Ben

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Vivien
Posts: 9122
Joined: Sat Jun 07, 2014 3:07 am
Location: Australia

Re: Take me away

Postby Vivien » Wed Aug 14, 2019 8:31 am

Dear Ben,

You are more than welcome :)

All the best,
Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/


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