Longing for nothing

[Marigold]

Where does seeing take place? Outside or inside?

I can't find any outside or inside. The seeing is just that. Seeing.

Where is the border between outside and inside?

There is no border. It cannot be.

Does seeing look more like 2D or 3D, if you only actually see and think nothing?

I have a grapefruit in front of me. In "reality" I only see the 2D picture.

Look closely: do you actually see an "apple" apart from a color?

No, only the color is seen.

How do you know the name of the color? Notice how thoughts call what is seen.

I don't know the name of the color. The word "orange" (as a color for grapefruit) is known:) It is perceived as a thought by itself. There is no choice about not knowing the color in this case.

How do you know the name of the apple?

Again - I don't know the name. It is just known without any effort. The thought of grapefruit is perceived:D

Does what you see have a name when you see it or is there just seeing something? Notice the gap between seeing and labeling.

No, when I look at the object it is just seeing. In the DE of seeing there is just the seeing. The knowledge of "this is grapefruit" comes later. So I would say first there is just the seeing and later a thought of "grapefruit" is perceived.
(I am spending more time on this question..somehow "I" cannot grasp it).

Is there someone who sees and the seen, or is there just seeing?

No distinction. It is just the seeing. It is one thing.

Is there an "entity" that perceives a perceived object or is there simply perceiving?

This makes me smile:) There is no entity that is perceiving. It is just happening.

What is the task of thoughts in this whole process of perception?

There is no task. Only the labelling takes place. No other ideas come to "me" of what other use the thoughts can have. There is the DE of sensing which seems to be full in itself. The label comes afterwards.

Do you think the experience or is there only experiencing?

No, I don't think the experience. It is just happening - experiencing.

I had a challenging time on this question

Does what you see have a name when you see it or is there just seeing something? Notice the gap between seeing and labeling.

I said earlier "I" couldn't grasp it but "I" tried to just let it go and see what will happen. Saying this I can see also that there was no choice about this "letting go and see what will happen". It is all just happening on its own. There was no choice to perceive this question as more or less challenging and there was no choice about "letting it go". All the thoughts and thinking just evolved and was perceived without no one controlling it. It is really all just the perception of all the process in this case.
It is all just as it is:)

:)

[barb]

<3

Wonderful seen, you seem very clear :)

Let's have a closer look, if thoughts are able to understand reality:

Sit at home with eyes closed. In your mind, imagine going to the kitchen and getting a piece of fruit (be sure to choose something you already have in stock, as we will need if after).

Try to fully imagine actually going there, picking it up, the look of it, the colour, texture, smell, reflections of light. Then imagine biting into the fruit, tasting it, the texture, sweetness, sharpness, all the qualities. Imagine every aspect, make it as real as possible, and write the descriptions down..

Now open your eyes, and actually go to the kitchen. Take the piece of fruit out for real, and look at it, examine the colour, texture, smell, reflections of light. Now actually bite into the fruit and taste it, experience the texture, the sweetness, sharpness, etc.


Now look at your written words and imagine how you would describe the current experience.

Now ask yourself:

Do the descriptions have anything in common with the reality of actual experience?
Can a word, such as sweet or juicy, know anything about the reality of actual experience?
Can a thought ever know anything about experience in general?

Has a thought/word/imagination anything to do with direct experience? Can a thought anything know about truth/reality?

I'm very curious what you will find :)

[Marigold]

Hi Barb,

I am sorry I didn't write any answer yet. I didn't find any time to do so yet. I know I can take my time.
This is just to let you know it is on my mind and I will write soon.
🙏

[barb]

Thanks for letting me know :)

[Marigold]

Hi Barb,
I am sorry for the delay.

Try to fully imagine actually going there, picking it up, the look of it, the colour, texture, smell, reflections of light. Then imagine biting into the fruit, tasting it, the texture, sweetness, sharpness, all the qualities. Imagine every aspect, make it as real as possible, and write the descriptions down..

So, I am thinking of getting a plum. I imagine the plum is round, dark purple and firm outside and yellowish and little bit juicy inside. It is not overly ripe so it will taste a little sharp. The flesh of it (the inside) is still rather firm. It will be little bit crunchy.

Now open your eyes, and actually go to the kitchen. Take the piece of fruit out for real, and look at it, examine the colour, texture, smell, reflections of light. Now actually bite into the fruit and taste it, experience the texture, the sweetness, sharpness, etc.

Looking at the plum, it is not shaped as I imagined. It is round but not perfect round. Also the color is different in some places. Dark purple but with lighter shades and the skin has light brown marks.
It is as I expected crunchy and little bit sharp in taste. It is little bit juicy too.

Do the descriptions have anything in common with the reality of actual experience?

No. It is completely different. There is no thing common in those two separate things.

Can a word, such as sweet or juicy, know anything about the reality of actual experience?

No, it can not. Even though I tried to imagine the sharp taste of the fruit prior to eating - when I actually ate a bite of the plum I can see the word is not able to convey the experience. It has nothing to do with it, nothing in common (even thought I am using the same word when I imagine the sharpness and the same word when I say I tasted sharpness).

Can a thought ever know anything about experience in general?

No. I don't know how else to answer this but that the thought is not real whereas the experience is. Even now thinking about the taste after eating the fruit - it is not real. There is the aspect of the direct experience missing for it to be real.

Has a thought/word/imagination anything to do with direct experience? Can a thought anything know about truth/reality?
Again no. I think I have answered this question already.
Now words come to my mind - how futile to have any ideas about anything when actually only the DE is real.

I am thinking now about it - it is the senses that make the experience real. Can I say that perceiving a thought (if one is not tangled in the content of it) is as real as tasting food? I can see the thought itself cannot act in any way. Would it be the same as the taste of one particular food can not taste otherwise and so it is in a way the same..
Yet the taste seems more real than the thought (again if one is not lost in it).
Probably too much thinking. There is just something not clear or it comes up as something not being clear..even though answering your questions it is clear that the thought of something and then the actual experience are two different things...

Lots of love..

[barb]

Great job!

Do the descriptions have anything in common with the reality of actual experience?

No. It is completely different. There is no thing common in those two separate things. 

Exactly...:)

Can a word, such as sweet or juicy, know anything about the reality of actual experience?
No, it can not. Even though I tried to imagine the sharp taste of the fruit prior to eating - when I actually ate a bite of the plum I can see the word is not able to convey the experience. It has nothing to do with it, nothing in common (even thought I am using the same word when I imagine the sharpness and the same word when I say I tasted sharpness).

Yes

Has a thought/word/imagination anything to do with direct experience? Can a thought anything know about truth/reality?

Again no. I think I have answered this question already.

that does not matter at all (that you've answered already), only repeated looking leads to seeing...;)

Now words come to my mind - how futile to have any ideas about anything when actually only the DE is real.

Are you in control of the appearance of ideas? They will always occur, the point is to see them for what they are... The same with the sense of „I“... You can compare it with a mirage in desert: If you see one, maybe the first time you take it for real and go there to drink water. After seeing that it is just a mirage, maybe you go there a few more times, because you have forgotten. But once it is absolutely clear you never go there. Nevertheless the mirage is still to be seen...

I am thinking now about it - it is the senses that make the experience real. Can I say that perceiving a thought (if one is not tangled in the content of it) is as real as tasting food?

I can see the thought itself cannot act in any way. Would it be the same as the taste of one particular food can not taste otherwise and so it is in a way the same..Yet the taste seems more real than the thought (again if one is not lost in it). Probably too much thinking. There is just something not clear or it comes up as something not being clear..even though answering your questions it is clear that the thought of something and then the actual experience are two different things...

One could say so... The perceiving that there is thought is real, but not its content... Thoughts can point to real things which now can be seen-heard-felt-smelt-tastet, or they can point to other thoughts (past memories, future - all fairytaile) :)

If there are a lot of thoughts, then try to replace the thoughts a few minutes with gibberish or just blablablablabla .... Then look around what is still there of what the thoughts told before (which is really real), and what not ... :)
Do this whenever it comes in mind, and tell me how that goes :)

And don't forget to be aware of DE – seeing-hearing-sensing-tasting-smelling-thinking (only that there is thought) in everyday life... :)

[Marigold]

Hi Barb,

Just to comment on quote]I think I have answered this question already...

...that does not matter at all (that you've answered already), only repeated looking leads to seeing...;)[/quote]
I meant I felt I answered the particular question in a way prior of being asked. It wasn't in any way me thinking "I don't have to answer this anymore since I have done it already":) I very much agree the more often I look the better. It feels easier if I find the time to be able to sit,read your posts and do the exercise on daily basis rather than skipping days. So even if you ask me the same questions I don't mind. I just keep looking..:)

Are you in control of the appearance of ideas? 

Of course I am not. Reading my previous answer just makes me sight and roll my eyes up. It is clear to me that I am not in control of the thoughts that appear so I am not in control of thinking "how futile..." either. I have forgotten. And I know it is fine too. Just appearance.

If there are a lot of thoughts, then try to replace the thoughts a few minutes with gibberish or just blablablablabla .... Then look around what is still there of what the thoughts told before (which is really real), and what not ... :)

If it happens that "I catch myself" thinking too much and I do the blablabla as you suggested I find that after this I can hardly go back to the previous thought and continue. The thread is lost. More often than not I don't even remember what was the thinking before so nothing is left of the previous excessive thinking. It was nothing:)

Thank you for reminding the focus for DE. I have downloaded the quote application some time ago. It is a nice way to "remind myself" to look again..(whenever "I" remember to open the app..)
:)

[barb]

 I very much agree the more often I look the better. It feels easier if I find the time to be able to sit,read your posts and do the exercise on daily basis rather than skipping days. So even if you ask me the same questions I don't mind. I just keep looking..:)

Great, yes it's really just about simple looking... :)

Are you in control of the appearance of ideas? 

Of course I am not. Reading my previous answer just makes me sight and roll my eyes up. It is clear to me that I am not in control of the thoughts that appear so I am not in control of thinking "how futile..." either. I have forgotten. And I know it is fine too. Just appearance...

Yes, and this forgetting is also an appearance... :) Try to be gentle and patient with yourself... You've already seen that everything happens on its own, thoughts of futility, ideas, rolling eyes, sights... everythings just like rain, sun, wind...

If it happens that "I catch myself" thinking too much and I do the blablabla as you suggested I find that after this I can hardly go back to the previous thought and continue. The thread is lost. More often than not I don't even remember what was the thinking before so nothing is left of the previous excessive thinking. It was nothing:)

Isn't it amazing? Some thoughts assert the importance of other thoughts and then nothing lasts from this importance... ;)) The best thing that can happen is having fun with thought phenomena :)

Let's have a gentle and friendly look at the body experience:

Sit or lie down for about 15 minutes with eyes closed. Breath softly, relax...
Pay attention only to the pure sensations without relying on thoughts or mental images.

Can you tell how big the body is?
Does the body have a weight or circumference?
Does the body have a shape or form in the current experience?

Can there a border be felt between the body and the clothes?
Can there a border be felt between the body and the surface?

Just with feeling: do you know how many toes there are, does the feeling know anything about toes, or is it just a sensation?
Does the body have a name?

Is there an inside or outside? If there is an inside - inside of what?
If there is an outside, the outside of what exactly?


Does the body perceive or is the body perceived?
Does awareness live in a particular location?
Is there something missing when the body is experienced in this way?

:)

[Marigold]

Can you tell how big the body is?
Does the body have a weight or circumference?
Does the body have a shape or form in the current experience?

No,there is no experience of the size of the body while I am lying down just now. There is also no experience of the weight or circumference. I can feel a pressure on the back so that would be the weight of the body but in DE I can only perceive the sense of touch.There is no weight,just the sense of touch.
And I cannot find any shape or form either.

Can there a border be felt between the body and the clothes?
Can there a border be felt between the body and the surface?

No, the clothes is felt so that is again the sense of touch but I can't point any border between body and the clothes. There isn't any. The clothes is felt.
I can feel the surface but there is no border between surface and the body. It is one experience. It is the touch that is experienced.

Just with feeling: do you know how many toes there are, does the feeling know anything about toes, or is it just a sensation?
Does the body have a name?

:) No,when I move my toes I can feel the sensation but I don't know how many toes there are. It is not experienced.
No, there is no name either..How could be:):)

Is there an inside or outside? If there is an inside - inside of what?
If there is an outside, the outside of what exactly?

There is no inside neither outside. There is a sensation but I can't point out where it is sensed.It is just sensed at this moment right now.Only now. It cannot be sensed in the past or future.

Does the body perceive or is the body perceived? 
Does awareness live in a particular location?
Is there something missing when the body is experienced in this way?

"It" is perceived. The body itself cannot perceive (this is surprising discovery. I always thought the body can perceive).
The awareness is always here, always present but there is no location. Just always here.It is not located anywhere. It is just here.
There is nohing missing when the body is experienced this way. It is perfect and it cannot be perceived otherwise..

:):)

[barb]

:)

Wonderful seen!

I can feel a pressure on the back

Can you find „a back“ in DE? Does the raw feeling know something about back, or is there just sensation?

And I cannot find any shape or form either.

Yes, exactly

No, the clothes is felt so that is again the sense of touch but I can't point any border between body and the clothes. There isn't any. The clothes is felt.

Are there really clothes be felt, or is there just sensation and thoughts (memories) puts the label "clothes" on the sensation?

I can feel the surface but there is no border between surface and the body. It is one experience. It is the touch that is experienced.

 
The same: Can a surface be found in DE, or just touch labeled as surface?

Sorry if I seem fussy, but for our investigation it's essential to know what's really tangible and what's being labeled.
Labels are useful as long as it is clear that they are only an insufficient description of reality... :)

Sure, seeing-hearing-touching-tasting-smelling-thinking are also labels, once again steamed down "experience" remains and even the word "experience" has nothing to do with reality. No word can describe what is, but we have to use them to communicate... :)

There is nohing missing when the body is experienced this way. It is perfect and it cannot be perceived otherwise..

:)

Let's make a little Reality-Check

Here are 3 words:

The first: “table”, it points to a material thing;
the second: “university”, a label that is used for communication but can not be found as a thing, but still its components like buildings, students, professors...
the third: “the famous Santa Claus”, is an imaginary character, a word that points to something that isn't real.

To which category belongs the “I”?

Real is that which does not disappear when you stop thinking of it... ;)

You seem very clear... If you look back to the begin of our investigation, what would you say where you stand? Would you say that you've clearly seen, that the separate „I“ is an illusion?

Much love <3

[Marigold]

Can you find „a back“ in DE? Does the raw feeling know something about back, or is there just sensation?

Actually no, there is just the sensation. Saying that I feel pressure on the back is just putting a label on the DE. There is just the sensation.

Are there really clothes be felt, or is there just sensation and thoughts (memories) puts the label "clothes" on the sensation?

Again Barb, when I look properly there is just sensation.No clothes to be found.

The same: Can a surface be found in DE, or just touch labeled as surface?

And there is no surface either:) It is just the sensation.

It is quite clear that there is only the sensation to all of the above questions. There is no surface,no back,no clothes. Only a sensation.

I know the answers to your last post were given as they came at that moment. But I knew "deep down" I rushed as I was tired. Again - I am aware it appeared as it did,there was no choice whether to rush it or not to rush,no one was deciding:)And consequently feelings of little guilt are here.There is no choice about them either:)
There are moments like this during the day that it is spontaneously recognised (no one deciding how things progress,turn out or what thoughts come up).
What is then is:)

Answer to your question..

To which category belongs the “I”?

"I" is a label that is used for communication but in reality there is no "I" so it is like "Santa Claus" - "I" points to something that doesn't exist in search of direct experience which is all there is in reality.

If you look back to the begin of our investigation, what would you say where you stand? Would you say that you've clearly seen, that the separate „I“ is an illusion?

Yes Barb, it is clear that there is no separate "I". There are still some expectations like "well,now you are clear but nothing happened" (I mean like a blissful states) but that is seen as a thought without anyone deciding about this thought to appear or not to appear.
I feel more relaxed as I see things just happen on their own. I see there is no "I" in charge of thinking or any other sensing. It is only the perception of the senses that is happening.Nothing else is here.
It is all put down so plain but it is amazing while "making" all those discoveries while contemplating your questions..

I don't want to hold on if you feel like there is no more pointing at the moment at the same time I am happy to continue..
So far thank you for the time you spend to guide me to all the discoveries 🙏🙏😊

[barb]

I know the answers to your last post were given as they came at that moment. But I knew "deep down" I rushed as I was tired. Again - I am aware it appeared as it did,there was no choice whether to rush it or not to rush,no one was deciding:)And consequently feelings of little guilt are here.There is no choice about them either:)

There are no right or wrong answers anyway, I just wanted to make sure (as I suspected) that this is clear to you :)

There are moments like this during the day that it is spontaneously recognised (no one deciding how things progress,turn out or what thoughts come up).
What is then is:)

Very good, keep looking...:)

Yes Barb, it is clear that there is no separate "I". There are still some expectations like "well,now you are clear but nothing happened" (I mean like a blissful states) but that is seen as a thought without anyone deciding about this thought to appear or not to appear.

Good observation :)

I feel more relaxed as I see things just happen on their own. I see there is no "I" in charge of thinking or any other sensing. It is only the perception of the senses that is happening.Nothing else is here.

Wonderful...

It is all put down so plain but it is amazing while "making" all those discoveries while contemplating your questions..

Yes, it is so simple, and this simplicity allows to see deeper in „ordinary“ life... :)

I don't want to hold on if you feel like there is no more pointing at the moment at the same time I am happy to continue..

Oh darling, this is not the end, its just a beginning <3 When you are through the gate there a some FB groups for exchange and I would also love to stay in touch with you via PM in this forum or in FB... :)

But here I have another beautiful experiment for you... It is a little bit extensive, so take all the days you need for. You can also split it up and do not have to do it all at once... :)

Stand in front of a larger mirror.

1. First, close your eyes and feel the sensations called "body."

2. Then open your eyes and look in the mirror while still paying attention to the sensations.

Is there a connection between the perceived sensations and the image in the mirror? Or just thoughts (and/or mental images) that suggest that?

3. While still paying attention to the sensations, move one hand and observe the movements in the mirror.

Is there a connection between the perceived sensation (referred to as the "hand") and the image of movement in the mirror?

4. Now do the same movement with your hand, but this time, look directly at the hand, not in the mirror.


Is there a connection between the perceived sensations (called "hand") and the image of "movement"? Or only thoughts indicate it?

5. Now pay attention only to the picture in the mirror.

Does the picture say on its own that it is "you" or "your body"?

Does the picture in any way say that it is a "body" at all?

Or are there only colors and shapes?

6. Where the mirror ends, some parts of the body (probably legs or feet) can not be seen.

Only through the image in the mirror, is there any "knowledge" that there must be legs/feet or just thoughts and mental images suggesting that?


7. Now turn away from the mirror and look forward (do not look directly at body parts).

Is there a "body" somewhere when all thoughts and images are ignored or are there just sensations?

8. Start walking slowly
Is there a "body" that moves or is it just sensations?

Is there any experience of "walking" at all? Or just THOUGHTS about "going"?

Can something like "body" be found or just thoughts about a "body"?

Can something like "walking" be found?

9. Are the sensations localized in space (as through space), OR is there only one image labeled "space" and ascending sensations without a location?


Have fun with it!

So far thank you for the time you spend to guide me to all the discoveries

It's my pleasure :) The discoveries will never end, and also not our contact if you wish... <3

[Marigold]

Hi Barb,

I have not done any of the exercise today but again - I will write when I am able to do it. As you suggested I might not do all of the questions in once..will see how it goes. It looks like fun:)

Thank you for your last message.It feels reassuring😊🙏🙏
I will write soon😊

[Marigold]

Hi Barb,

Is there a connection between the perceived sensations and the image in the mirror? Or just thoughts (and/or mental images) that suggest that?

No,in direct experience it is very clear that there is no connection. The one in the mirror is just an image but it has nothing to do with the perception of the sensation. I see it is learned - it is only a thought that this is "me" in the mirror.

Is there a connection between the perceived sensation (referred to as the "hand") and the image of movement in the mirror?

No, there is no connection. There is nothing that would suggest any connection between the sensation of the "hand" being moved and movement in the mirror.

4. Now do the same movement with your hand, but this time, look directly at the hand, not in the mirror.
Is there a connection between the perceived sensations (called "hand") and the image of "movement"? Or only thoughts indicate it?

It is only the thought that is suggesting the connection between the sensation and the image of the movement. There is no connection between those two either:)

5. Now pay attention only to the picture in the mirror.
Does the picture say on its own that it is "you" or "your body"?
Does the picture in any way say that it is a "body" at all?
Or are there only colors and shapes?

No, the image in the mirror is not suggesting that this is "my" body, neither that this is "me".
And it doesn't say anything about being a "body". In the mirror it is perceived as any other object with "its" shape and color but it is only a thought labelling this is a "body".

6. Where the mirror ends, some parts of the body (probably legs or feet) can not be seen.
Only through the image in the mirror, is there any "knowledge" that there must be legs/feet or just thoughts and mental images suggesting that?

The mirror doesn't reflect part of the leg and arm and so it is only the imagination - a though - that is suggesting there is part of the leg and arm even though they are seen.

7. Now turn away from the mirror and look forward (do not look directly at body parts).
Is there a "body" somewhere when all thoughts and images are ignored or are there just sensations?

There is no body anywhere. Just the sensations.

8. Start walking slowly
Is there a "body" that moves or is it just sensations?

No, it is again just the sensations.

Is there any experience of "walking" at all? Or just THOUGHTS about "going"?
There is just the sensation. There is no walking. However, "I" can thought saying that "I" am walking. Also walking slowly through different rooms the thoughts are coming "you just walked" as new scenery is seen. The thought appear "you are moving".
It is quite difficult to perceive only the sensation and distinguish it from the thoughts of "you are walking". I think I try again quite hard to concentrate only on the sensation but I can see it is only the sensations. The "my body walking" is a concept, a thought.

Can something like "body" be found or just thoughts about a "body"?

It is only the perceptions so there is no "body". It cannot be located through the direct experience of only sensations.

Can something like "walking" be found?

No, it is only the sensation. And actually it is more clear now that there is no "walking" :)

9. Are the sensations localized in space (as through space), OR is there only one image labeled "space" and ascending sensations without a location?

While "I walk" there is not sensations as "through space". The sensations are not located anywhere. They are just perceived. There is no movement from A to B. Every "step" and the "movement of the body" is perceived in the same "space" but it cannot have any description of where it is perceived. It is just perceived.


I really enjoy those kind of examinations. I can see all those concepts and we take them as the truth. For example when I look at the image in the mirror it is without any big concentration clear that there is no connection. The same with missing leg or arm - I just imagine that they are there even though they are not visible in the mirror to "make the body whole".
I also remember as a child when we moved to a new flat there was a new mirror and for a long time I was scared to walk in front always seeing the "person" in there. Could that be that as a "child" I didn't have yet the knowledge that "I am the body"?

Thank you for all those questions. I will play with it again. I hope I didn't miss anything. Last two days I was waiting for a good moment to do this exercise but I can hardly be on my own so while I was doing this I had to attend many times to my little one which made me quite agitated at the beginning but then "I" just accepted things are the way they are and even with the little distraction it is enjoyable:)

Looking forward to do more of this...
Lots of love:)

[barb]

Wonderful :)

Yes such experiments are very exciting... Be creative, curious - find your own investigations... :)

It would be a good idea to go into nature, sit there for a bit, and watch how everything moves and wiggles, how the wind blows, how the clouds move.

If you can’t go, a view through a window is fine too. People and animals move. Everything is one movement, including your body, breath, and thoughts. Watch the totality, and notice - there is no“noticer” separate from the noticing...

Enjoy it, enjoy the seeing of „there is no I“ …..

When you are ready then tell me how this is for you... :)

<3 _()_