Seeking assistance to see through illusion of self

[jeffreywill]

Thanks Vivien, I will work through this exercise and post my reply tomorrow.

-Jeff

[jeffreywill]

Hi Vivien,

I no longer question the concept of learning being different from a learned activity, I truly see this.

Good. I’m glad to hear that.
Do you feel that you might benefit from doing more exercises on control/decider?

No, I don’t think I need any more controller/decider exercises.

For example, as these words are read off the screen, is there a sense that there is a ‘me’ doing the reading?
Or that there is a seer somewhere behind the eyes or inside the head looking out through the eyes and perceiving the world out there?

No I don’t sense a reader of the words or a seer behind the eyes. The words are simply being read with no effort. I do not feel a separate entity perceiving the world, there isn’t a separation.

Can you see clearly that the sensation mislabelled as me/experiencer/knower/seer is no different sensation than the sensation labelled foot, stomach or hand?
Radically ordinary, bereft of any meaning?

Please let me know how the looking goes.

I performed this exercise many times over the last couple days. I see that the sensation of me is no different from any other labeled sensation. This is sinking in for me. For example a felt down after work and laid down for a bit. I focused on the physical sensations, ‘queasy stomach’, ‘empty feeling in chest’, ‘brain fog’. They are all just individual physical sensations that sum up to a greater labeled feeling of ‘down/depressed’. There is no me there to be found. The individual sensations are very ordinary and neutral on their own, free from thought labels.

Thanks
-Jeff

[Vivien]

Hi Jeff,

I do not feel a separate entity perceiving the world, there isn’t a separation.

Good :)

V: Can you see clearly that the sensation mislabelled as me/experiencer/knower/seer is no different sensation than the sensation labelled foot, stomach or hand?
Radically ordinary, bereft of any meaning?
Please let me know how the looking goes.

J: I performed this exercise many times over the last couple days. I see that the sensation of me is no different from any other labeled sensation. This is sinking in for me. For example a felt down after work and laid down for a bit. I focused on the physical sensations, ‘queasy stomach’, ‘empty feeling in chest’, ‘brain fog’. They are all just individual physical sensations that sum up to a greater labeled feeling of ‘down/depressed’. There is no me there to be found. The individual sensations are very ordinary and neutral on their own, free from thought labels.

Very good. Please look for the sensation that is labelled as ‘me’ for a few more days, as often as you can remember.

Especially pay attention to it when there is an emotions present, like anxiety.

If there is no strong emotion or anxiety present, then please bring up a memory of something that triggered a stronger emotional response.

When the emotion is there, look for the sensation that is labelled as ‘me’, who is having the emotion. What can you find?

Vivien

[jeffreywill]

Hi Vivien,

When the emotion is there, look for the sensation that is labelled as ‘me’, who is having the emotion. What can you find?

I did this exercise many times over the last few days. The emotion is a thought/label for one or more physical sensations. I was “anxious” this morning for example, which was a label for tension in my forehead and butterflies in my stomach, just sensations in my head and stomach.
Later on I was “frustrated” which was a sensation in my head and in my chest. I also took notice when I was calm, which was an empty feeling in my chest, which I also have when I’m “depressed”. Based on thoughts the same raw sensation is labeled in two different ways, just stories. Not once did I find a ‘me’ that was having these emotions.

-Jeff

[Vivien]

Hi Jeff,

I also took notice when I was calm, which was an empty feeling in my chest, which I also have when I’m “depressed”. Based on thoughts the same raw sensation is labeled in two different ways, just stories.

Yes, nice observation. By thoughts labelling the same sensation differently, gives the impression of the seeming experience of ‘depression’ or ‘calmness’. While the only difference is the label.

Here are some more questions. Please look very carefully with EACH one, and check several times again and again if an ‘I’ can be found or not. Don’t rush, be thorough.

Just look now...a thought can be found, but can a thinker of thought be found?
Can an “I” be found in thought itself?

Sound can be found, but can a hearer of sounds be found?
Can an “I” be found in sound itself?

Colour can be found, but can a see-er of colour be found?
Can an “I” be found in colour itself?

Sensation can be found, but can a feeler of sensation be found?
Can an “I” be found in sensation itself?

Smell can be found, but can a smeller of smell be found?
Can an “I” be found in smell itself?

Taste can be found, but can a taster of taste be found?
Can an “I” be found in taste itself?

So can anyone/anything be found that has “belief and faith” in thoughts?

Experience can be found, but can an experiencer of experience be found?

It's as simple as that. Just look and see what is actually present - and what is only imaginary.

Vivien

[jeffreywill]

Thanks Vivien, I will post my reply tomorrow.

[jeffreywill]

Hi Vivien,

Just look now...a thought can be found, but can a thinker of thought be found?
Can an “I” be found in thought itself?

I can’t find a thinker nor an I in thought itself.

Sound can be found, but can a hearer of sounds be found?
Can an “I” be found in sound itself?

Just the sounds, an I cannot be found in sounds.

Colour can be found, but can a see-er of colour be found?
Can an “I” be found in colour itself?

No see-er can be found just colour/what is seen. There is no I.

Sensation can be found, but can a feeler of sensation be found?
Can an “I” be found in sensation itself?

There is only raw sensation, no feeler or I.

Smell can be found, but can a smeller of smell be found?
Can an “I” be found in smell itself?

No smeller can be, there is no I in the smell itself. There is only smell.

Taste can be found, but can a taster of taste be found?
Can an “I” be found in taste itself?

There is no taster only taste, no I to be found.

So can anyone/anything be found that has “belief and faith” in thoughts?

No I can’t find anything that has “belief and faith” in thoughts.

Experience can be found, but can an experiencer of experience be found?

No, all that I can find is the experience, there is no separation, there is no experiencer.

My answers were brief, but I found these exercises quite clear and straightforward. Let me know if you need more details.

Thanks
-Jeff

[Vivien]

Hi Jeff,

My answers were brief, but I found these exercises quite clear and straightforward.

When we restarted looking, you said that a great deal of your understanding was intellectual. What would you say now? Can you see experientially without any doubt that there is no me/self in any shape or form?

Has there been a change in perception since we restarted looking?

Is searching/seeking still going on?

Has there been an impact on your day to day life as the result of seeing through the self (especially on how you feel)?
If yes, how so?

Vivien

[jeffreywill]

Hi Vivien,

When we restarted looking, you said that a great deal of your understanding was intellectual. What would you say now? Can you see experientially without any doubt that there is no me/self in any shape or form?

When I look in experience I don’t see a me or self. This is clear.

Has there been a change in perception since we restarted looking?

Yes I have experienced a subtle change in perception since the restart. Thoughts are no longer as important as before, they are just a part of experience such as the five sensations. I see the thoughts as stories, and I don’t identify with them as much anymore. It’s not a huge change, but enough for me to take notice.

Is searching/seeking still going on?

The seeking has greatly diminished, it remains only slightly. Basically I am interested to see where these exercises take me. Before, the seeking was starting to frustrate me, it was almost an obsession. But that has gone away, what remains is a fun curiosity, much more calm.

Has there been an impact on your day to day life as the result of seeing through the self (especially on how you feel)?
If yes, how so?

Yes there is a change in my day to day life. I am not getting caught up in the stories and thoughts. I see them for what they are and I don’t listen to them in depth. Thoughts are less ‘sticky’.

Thanks
-Jeff

[Vivien]

Hi Jeff,

When I look in experience I don’t see a me or self. This is clear.

And if there is no looking, is there a ‘me’?
What is it that can look at experience?

I see the thoughts as stories, and I don’t identify with them as much anymore.

Search for the one that do or don’t identify with stories. Where is it? And what is it?

I am not getting caught up in the stories and thoughts

Search through the whole body that could be caught up in stories and thoughts. Where is this one?

I see them for what they are and I don’t listen to them in depth.

What is it that can see thoughts for what they are?
What is it that don’t listen to them in depth?

The reply might seem obvious and there could be a quick claim that there is nothing doing those above things, but please don’t do that, since that would stay on the intellectual level only.

Even when the reply seems obvious, please LOOK very carefully at experience. Spend several minutes with each questions. And repeat looking them again and again before replying.

Vivien

[jeffreywill]

Hi Vivien,

I won't be able to reply today. Please look out for my reply tomorrow.

Thanks
-Jeff

[jeffreywill]

Hi Vivien,

When I look in experience I don’t see a me or self. This is clear.

And if there is no looking, is there a ‘me’?
What is it that can look at experience?

When there is no looking there is no me. I can’t find a looker, one who looks at experience.

I see the thoughts as stories, and I don’t identify with them as much anymore.

Search for the one that do or don’t identify with stories. Where is it? And what is it?

When I look all I find is more thoughts and concepts in AE. I can’t find anything that could identify with the stories.

I am not getting caught up in the stories and thoughts

Search through the whole body that could be caught up in stories and thoughts. Where is this one?

When I search the body I don’t find anyone or anything that could get caught up in stories.

I see them for what they are and I don’t listen to them in depth.

What is it that can see thoughts for what they are?
What is it that don’t listen to them in depth?

Ah, this one had an impact on ‘me’. When I look at these statements in AE, I can’t find anyone to consider them, these are just more thoughts. Thoughts can’t listen or not listen to other thoughts in depth.

Thanks
-Jeff

[Vivien]

Hi Jeff,

V: What is it that can see thoughts for what they are?
What is it that don’t listen to them in depth?

J: Ah, this one had an impact on ‘me’. When I look at these statements in AE, I can’t find anyone to consider them, these are just more thoughts. Thoughts can’t listen or not listen to other thoughts in depth.

Can a thought ACTUALLY listen?
Does a thought have the ability to listen to other thoughts?

If you say yes, then it would mean that thoughts are some sort of entities that are aware of other thoughts, thus they can listen or not listen to them. But is this so?

So, there is not just no listener, but even thoughts cannot listen.
Only there could be thoughts ABOUT listening, but there is no actual act of thoughts listening.
Can you see this clearly?

So not just ‘outside’ of thoughts there is no listener, but there is no ‘listener’ in thoughts either.
There are only thoughts about listening, but just because the word ‘listening’ is in the sentence, it doesn’t mean that there is any sort of listening going on. Can you see this experientially?

Vivien

[jeffreywill]

Sorry Vivien, I won't be able to post today. I will get back to you tomorrow.

Thanks
-Jeff

[jeffreywill]

Hi Vivien,

Can a thought ACTUALLY listen?
Does a thought have the ability to listen to other thoughts?

No, a thought cannot listen, it doesn’t have the ability to listen to other thoughts.

If you say yes, then it would mean that thoughts are some sort of entities that are aware of other thoughts, thus they can listen or not listen to them. But is this so?

No this is not the case.

So, there is not just no listener, but even thoughts cannot listen.
Only there could be thoughts ABOUT listening, but there is no actual act of thoughts listening.
Can you see this clearly?

Yes I see this clearly.

So not just ‘outside’ of thoughts there is no listener, but there is no ‘listener’ in thoughts either.
There are only thoughts about listening, but just because the word ‘listening’ is in the sentence, it doesn’t mean that there is any sort of listening going on. Can you see this experientially?

Yes I see this in AE. I don’t have to do anything in order to listen. Sound itself is happening without “my” involvement.

Thanks
-Jeff