Passing through, carrying on

[Thirteen]

Hi Vivien, continuing previous investigation.

How is the decision made to stay sit or to stand up?
What is making the decision to stand up?

I’m cooking at the time of writing this response. There was a thought about checking the boiling water and to get up. Around the same time when the thought arose, there arose some sensations in the temples of my head. Which followed which couldn’t be discerned. Very shortly after, thought about this task of watching the decisions, so sitting continued. Then, again a thought, that was followed by standing up. But in both cases the thoughts and sensations popped up from nowhere. Nor was there a conscious planning of which muscles to activate to get up and walk to the kitchen - and no planner.

When eating, observe very carefully. How is it chosen which piece of food to put onto the fork and eat next?
How is it decided EXACTLY to choose the pea, the rice, the carrot (or whatever is on the plate) to be the next?

There is looking at the plate. Sensations (labeled as ”impulse”) come up ”from nowhere” at similar time with thoughts. A bit later hands move and pick the food.

What is the ‘thing’ that is making the decision about the next piece of food?

There is nothing making decisions. Sensations, thoughts and muscle movements mingle, and it’s hard to say what follows what.

When dressing up, how is the decision is made what clothes to choose?
Observe the movements of dressing up. How is the decision is made when to lift the arms or legs, and which clothes to put on first?
What is making the decision? - Find the location

When showering and towelling, how is the decision made where to move the hands, and in which sequence towel the body?

When shopping in a supermarket, observe the thought processes how the decision is made which line to go in?

Let me know what you find.

Same here as in previous answer. Sensations (including sounds, colors) and thoughts and movements all mingle and it is hard to say what follows what. Sometimes it’s more clear, as in when seeing there is an ad for junk food, thoughts about junk food and sensations labeled as craving pop up soon after. Then there are sensations labeled as anxiety that are released after junk food is bought.

A sticky point for me has been looking out from the window when typing these answers. There are thoughts: ”I am here, looking out of window and answering. Looking out serves no biological function so it is random enough to warrant existence of free will.” But even now, no decider is found. Looking out happens, and there are these thoughts about free will and choosing. But no chooser can be found.

There is lot of tension in body when doing this hunt for decisions / chooser. Also, lot of intellectualisation. Thought: ”it’s frustrating because there is effort to find sensations, thoughts and their sequence related to muscle movement/action - and this is very hard.”

Thought: ”there is belief that there is an objective, ’correct’ sequence of happenings that leads to decision, and frustration is caused when this sequence cannot be seen.”

Thought: ”if there is just looking, things that happen before decision or action cannot be remembered, so one needs to be vigilant and examine. But can there be a chooser if one needs to try to remember what happened before an action?”

Ok, new sticky one appears. Who is choosing to do the looking? Who is trying to find the chooser, the decisions? Who is switching attention from thoughts to sensations, from colors to sounds, ...?

No answers come up. There are sensations in the stomach, chest and throat.

[Vivien]

Hi Sami,

There are other thoughts whose content is more-or-less whatever is wished to be typed.

What ‘wishing’ is experienced?
And what is it exactly that is wishing? – find it, locate it

Thought: ”there is belief that there is an objective, ’correct’ sequence of happenings that leads to decision, and frustration is caused when this sequence cannot be seen.”

What is it exactly that is having the experience of frustration?

Thought: ”it’s frustrating because there is effort to find sensations, thoughts and their sequence related to muscle movement/action - and this is very hard.”

How ‘frustration’ is actually experienced? Is it a sound, colour, sensation, smell, taste, or a thought?

What is it exactly that finds it hard?

“This is very hard” – how ‘very hard’ is actually experienced?

But can there be a chooser if one needs to try to remember what happened before an action?”

If there is REALLY a ‘chooser’ then it must be there somewhere. So find it! Where is it exactly?
And how does the ‘chooser’ look like?

Ok, new sticky one appears. Who is choosing to do the looking? Who is trying to find the chooser, the decisions? Who is switching attention from thoughts to sensations, from colors to sounds, ...?

These questions suppose that there is someone, who is doing these things. So the questions themselves are based on a belief in a ‘doer/chooser/decider’.

So if there is one, then it has to be there. So find it. Look everywhere. Look into thoughts, sensations, images, look into every corner of the body, into the feet, stomach, chest, neck, throat, the back of the head, eyes, behind the eyes, the forehead, the top of the head. Don’t leave anything out.

Where is the one that is supposedly choosing to look?
Where is the one that is trying to find the chooser?
Where is the one that is supposedly directing the attention from thoughts to sensations?

No answers come up. There are sensations in the stomach, chest and throat.

Don’t wait for an answer to come up. That would be only a thought interpretation, a thought content. Rather LOOK.

Vivien

[Thirteen]

Hi Vivien,

What ‘wishing’ is experienced?

Thoughts. Sensations, labeled pleasurable.

And what is it exactly that is wishing? – find it, locate it

It’s a thought about wishing.

What is it exactly that is having the experience of frustration?

No thing.

How ‘frustration’ is actually experienced? Is it a sound, colour, sensation, smell, taste, or a thought?

There are some body sensations, thoughts that label them as frustration, thoughts that ”I’m frustrated.”.

What is it exactly that finds it hard?

Thoughts that have content ”I find it hard”.

“This is very hard” – how ‘very hard’ is actually experienced?

Thoughts. Also, sensations that are labeled as effort or frustration. There’s thought that effort and frustration relate to similar sensations but the thought content differs.

If there is REALLY a ‘chooser’ then it must be there somewhere. So find it! Where is it exactly?
And how does the ‘chooser’ look like?

When looking, only place where chooser appears is thoughts. It keeps coming back to thoughts. E.g. thoughts about ”I chose this action, but this other action was automatic”. Nothing else in DE contains a chooser.

Where is the one that is supposedly choosing to look?

Again, only in thoughts.

Where is the one that is trying to find the chooser?

Thoughts...

Where is the one that is supposedly directing the attention from thoughts to sensations?

Again thoughts.

There are lot of body sensations related to previous answers, but the most consistent place where I/chooser/decider/looker/looker of the looker appears is in thoughts.

[Vivien]

Hi Sami,

Let’s take a look at the idea that there is a someone who is focusing attention.

Close your eyes and sit quietly for 10-15 minutes.
Watch what focus does.

Focus on focusing, attention itself.
Is there anything moving attention, or it moves by itself?
Is there a focus-er?

Hold focus on breath - see how it moves to thoughts, sensations, feelings, sounds.
Is there something controlling it?
What moves attention?
Is thought in control of attention?

Is it totally clear that there is no such thing a chooser?
Is it totally clear that there is no such thing as choice or free will?
If not, please write some examples when it seems to be otherwise.

Vivien

[Thirteen]

Hi Vivien,

Is there anything moving attention, or it moves by itself?
Is there a focus-er?

Attention moves by itself. Sometimes, ”it feels like” attention is ”voluntarily” moved, but in those cases there’s only a thought about a ”me” moving it. There’s nothing else than sensations, thoughts.

Is there something controlling it?
What moves attention?
Is thought in control of attention?

Attention seems to be scanning all the time, highlighting different sensations in different times. Sometimes, it is moved after a clear stimulus/difference.

Other times, like in the answer above, it seems to be moved by voluntary will. But in those cases, there’s a thought about somebody moving it. Hard to say whether thougt precedes the shift in attention or follows it. But it is only a ”thought” about attention being movied voluntarily, nothing else than sensations or thoughs are discerned.

Is it totally clear that there is no such thing a chooser?
Is it totally clear that there is no such thing as choice or free will?
If not, please write some examples when it seems to be otherwise.

They are clear. There are only thoughts, body sensations, sounds, colors.

[Vivien]

Hi Sami,

They are clear. There are only thoughts, body sensations, sounds, colors.

Great! Nice looking.

Let’s start to investigate the body and sensations. The illusion of the self is not just simply coming from thoughts, but also from the belief that “I am the body” or “I have a body” or that this or that sensation is ‘me’ or the location of the ‘me’, or that this or that sensation is happening to ‘me’. So the thought label ‘this is me’ and the appearing sensations are welded together, creating a ‘sense of self’.

Sit with eyes closed for about 15 minutes.
Paying attention only to the pure sensations, without relying on thoughts or mental images:

Can it be known how tall the body is?
Does the body have a weight or volume?
In the actual experience does the body have a shape or a form?

Is there a boundary between the body and the clothing?
Is there a boundary between the body and the chair?

Is there an inside or an outside?
If there is an inside - the inside of what exactly?
If there is an outside - the outside of what exactly?

What does the word/label ‘body’ ACTUALLY refer to?
What is the ACTUAL experience of the body?

Look very carefully, especially with the last question. Take your time, don’t rush. You can look several times during the day while doing other things (like washing hands, showering, having a short break from work, walking, etc) before replying.

Vivien

[Thirteen]

Hi Vivien,

Can it be known how tall the body is?

No.

Does the body have a weight or volume?

No. There are just sensations, and sensations don’t have weight or volume.

In the actual experience does the body have a shape or a form?

No. Just sensations here and there, changing all the time.

Is there a boundary between the body and the clothing?

No. Just sensations, changing, but without discernible boundary.

Is there a boundary between the body and the chair?

Again, just sensations.

Is there an inside or an outside?
If there is an inside - the inside of what exactly?
If there is an outside - the outside of what exactly?

In DE of body, no inside or outside - just sensations. Inside and outside are found in the contents of thoughts.

What does the word/label ‘body’ ACTUALLY refer to?
What is the ACTUAL experience of the body?

Body sensations (i.e. not colors, sounds, thoughts).

[Vivien]

Hi Sami,

You did a very nice looking!

Here is a little exercise. With eyes closed, put one of the hands on a desk or a table. Pay attention only to the pure sensation.

Does the pure sensation itself suggest in any way that the hand is doing the touching?
Does the pure sensation itself suggest in any way that there is a hand (subject) that touching the table (object), or is there only touching?
When all mental images and thoughts are ignored is there a ‘hand’ or a ‘table’ at all, or is there only touching (pure sensation)?

Can an ‘INHERENT FEELER’ be found?
Would anything that is suggested as the ‘feeler’, be anything other than a concept/idea/thought?

--
Let’s see if there is a connection between a visual image and sensations.

Here is an exercise that helps to see how the illusion of the body is ‘created’, so to speak. Normally we believe that sensation is coming from sight (colour), meaning the object seen. In this example, the object being the ‘hand’ (colour labelled as ‘hand’).

1. Close the eyes and hold up one hand. Pay attention only to the felt sensations ‘of the hand’.
2. Open the eyes, and now observe the hand by looking only.
3. While looking at the hand, pay attention to the felt sensations.

Repeat 1 to 3 as many times as needed and investigate…

Normally we believe that the sensation is coming from the sight, the ‘object’ seen (hand).
But if you look, is there any link between the sensation and the sight? In other words, is the sensation ‘coming from’ the sight (labelled as hand) or only thoughts and mental constructs link them?

Can you see that both the ‘visual sight’ and the sensation appear simultaneously but ‘separately’, meaning that none of them is coming from the other or contained by the other?

So they just appear equally, ‘beside’ each other without any hierarchy or link between them?

So you can repeat this with all of the body parts below, one-by-one.
- feet
- legs
- arms
- belly
- chest
- head (looking into the mirror)

What do you find?

Vivien

[Thirteen]

Hi Vivien,

I’ll answer ASAP, most likely tomorrow.

[Vivien]

Hi Sami,

Thank you for letting me know.

Have a nice day,
Vivien

[Thirteen]

Hi Vivien,

Does the pure sensation itself suggest in any way that the hand is doing the touching?

No.

Does the pure sensation itself suggest in any way that there is a hand (subject) that touching the table (object), or is there only touching?

No. There are only sensations that fluctuate.

When all mental images and thoughts are ignored is there a ‘hand’ or a ‘table’ at all, or is there only touching (pure sensation)?

There are just sensations.

Can an ‘INHERENT FEELER’ be found?
Would anything that is suggested as the ‘feeler’, be anything other than a concept/idea/thought?

There are only sensations. Hand, table are found in thoughts, along with ”someone who touches”.

But if you look, is there any link between the sensation and the sight? In other words, is the sensation ‘coming from’ the sight (labelled as hand) or only thoughts and mental constructs link them?

Can you see that both the ‘visual sight’ and the sensation appear simultaneously but ‘separately’, meaning that none of them is coming from the other or contained by the other?

So they just appear equally, ‘beside’ each other without any hierarchy or link between them?

Yes, they appear and are maintained on their own.

What do you find?

Some thoughts: ”a sense of self” is created when different sensations are integrated into a seameless whole. The thought ”I” organizes experience. Sensations are running in parallel.

[Vivien]

Hi Sami,

Some thoughts: ”a sense of self” is created when different sensations are integrated into a seameless whole. The thought ”I” organizes experience. Sensations are running in parallel.

“The thought ‘I’ organizes experience” – could you please say a bit more about this? What do you mean by ‘thought organizes the experience’?

Now, let’s look at emotions, what they really are. Bring up an emotion, feel it, and let’s examine what is really going on.
An appearing ‘emotion’ like ‘fear’ or ‘happiness’ has three ‘components’:

(a) a pure bodily sensation, like contraction or relaxation
(b) a mental label stuck to (layered over) the sensation, like “this is fear” or “this is contraction in the stomach” or “unpleasant” or “I am happy”
(c) and simultaneously appearing mental images (pictures) about a certain body parts, like picture about the stomach or the chest

So when an emotion is present, identify these three components, and investigate them:

Does the pure sensation suggest in any way that this is ‘sad’, ‘happy’, ‘uncomfortable’, ‘pleasant’ or ‘unpleasant’, ‘bad’ or ‘good’?

Or ‘happy’, ‘sad’, ‘good’ or ‘bad’, ‘uncomfortable’, ‘pleasant’ or ‘unpleasant’ are just mental labels on the pure sensation?

Does the pure sensation have any innate attributes, or is it totally NEUTRAL?

Is there REALLY ‘sadness’ or ‘sorrow’ or ‘suffering’, or are there only thoughts about ‘sadness’ or ‘suffering’?

So if you look very closely, you’ll see that there is neither sufferer, nor suffering. There are only thoughts ABOUT a sufferer and suffering. Can you see this?

Vivien

[Thirteen]

Hi Vivien,

“The thought ‘I’ organizes experience” – could you please say a bit more about this? What do you mean by ‘thought organizes the experience’?

That the thought content ”I” binds the disparate sensations, colors, sounds to a coherent and continuous moment of perception. That ”these sensations + these colors + these sounds” become ”Me laying on bed, looking at the roof and listening to music.”

Does the pure sensation suggest in any way that this is ‘sad’, ‘happy’, ‘uncomfortable’, ‘pleasant’ or ‘unpleasant’, ‘bad’ or ‘good’?

No. The pure sensation has no labels.

Or ‘happy’, ‘sad’, ‘good’ or ‘bad’, ‘uncomfortable’, ‘pleasant’ or ‘unpleasant’ are just mental labels on the pure sensation?
Does the pure sensation have any innate attributes, or is it totally NEUTRAL?

Yes - just labels. Even sensations labeled as ”pain” are neutral.

Is there REALLY ‘sadness’ or ‘sorrow’ or ‘suffering’, or are there only thoughts about ‘sadness’ or ‘suffering’?

The sensations related to sadness and suffering are neutral and don’t contain these qualities.

So if you look very closely, you’ll see that there is neither sufferer, nor suffering. There are only thoughts ABOUT a sufferer and suffering. Can you see this?

Yes, this is how it is seen in DE when looking.

[Vivien]

Hi Sami,
Now let’s examine the pure sensations without the labels. In reality, there are only 3 types of sensations. Pleasant, unpleasant and neutral. But usually the neutral ones are ignored, we hardly notice them. All the negative emotions generate unpleasant sensations, and in reality there is no difference in sensation of ‘sadness’, ‘anger’, ‘fear’, etc. There might be differences of the location and the intensity of the sensations, but the ‘feeling’ is the same. All these sensations feel contracted (actually the muscles are contracted). That’s why they are unpleasant.

The pleasant sensations are just the opposite of contraction, they feel open, expanded (because the muscles are relaxed) That’s why they feel pleasant. ‘Love’, ‘peace’, ‘calmness’, ‘gratitude’… these are all expanded sensations. The pure sensations of them are the same. There might be difference in location and intensity, but that’s all.

For the exercise you’ll have to bring up certain emotions, both pleasant and unpleasant ones. You don’t have to dive deeply into the unpleasant ones, you just bring up them lightly, just enough intensity that you can observe the underlying sensations.

So bring up the memory of ‘sadness’. When the sensation is present, don’t pay attention to the thought story, just stay with the pure sensation for a minute.
After about a minute let go of the sensation labelled ‘sadness’, and try to slightly feel ‘fear’ (just gently). Let go all thoughts, and just feel the pure sensation.
Now try to feel the sensation of ‘anger’ for a little while. Then let it go. Let your body calm down.
So, could you see that all the negative emotions felt very similar, contracted and unpleasant?
And only the labels make them seemingly different?

Now bring up the feeling of ‘love’, and pay attention only to the pure sensation. Let it be there for a while.
Then bring up the feeling of ‘peace’, observe the sensation carefully.
Now bring up the feeling of ‘gratitude’, and stay with a sensation as long as you like.
So, could you see that all the positive emotions felt very similar, expanded, pleasant?
And only the labels make them seemingly different?

And now the last step. Bring up just the feeling of an unpleasant sensation. You don’t even have to label it, just feel it. When the sensation is present observe it very carefully.
Does the pure sensation suggest in any way that it’s ‘unpleasant’?
Does the pure sensation itself is REALLY unpleasant?

Now, bring up a pleasant sensation, stay with it for a while, and observe it carefully.
Does the pure sensation suggest in any way that it’s ‘pleasant’?
Does the pure sensation itself is REALLY pleasant?

Vivien

[Thirteen]

Hi Vivien,

So, could you see that all the negative emotions felt very similar, contracted and unpleasant?
And only the labels make them seemingly different?

Yes, there’s tension involved with these. Location and intensity may change but there is contraction.

So, could you see that all the positive emotions felt very similar, expanded, pleasant?
And only the labels make them seemingly different?

Yes. There is almost like a flowing quality in these sensations.

Does the pure sensation suggest in any way that it’s ‘unpleasant’?
Does the pure sensation itself is REALLY unpleasant?

Does the pure sensation suggest in any way that it’s ‘pleasant’?
Does the pure sensation itself is REALLY pleasant?

Here, in both cases, the same observation as last day’s exercise: the sensations themselves are neutral, whether they are ”pleasant” or ”unpleasant”.