Passing a threshold

[Tangerine]

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
That LU prompts people to investigate and discover in their own lived experience that the idea of 'self' doesn't point to anything tangible - that it cannot be found outside thought.

What are you looking for at LU?
I am looking for clarity/certainty, the end of seeking, and the beginning the next phase. To pass beyond the threshold of doubt and start the real work. I am looking for the conversation to relent, honestly and thoroughly, until no stone is left unturned.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
I'm not sure. Part of me thinks what I am looking for is impossible or delusional. Part of me has hope. Maybe it wont be fireworks. We shall see. I would be lying if I said there isn't the hope that there will be a noticable shift with joy, connection, outpouring of love, a new mode of perception, access to greater intelligence and awareness, natural wisdom, and stillness and peace.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
I have studied all modes of spirituality for years (since mid teens) in my own time. Buddhism, nonduality and investigating thought have been the biggest themes, as well as conscious use of psychadelics. Given that the majority of my attention over these years have been centred around this, I have had periods of breaking through frameworks that kept me from the present moment - resulting in deep peace and fulfilment (temporarily, of course) - and even overcome deep depression and substance addiction and essentially become a completely different character. Meditation has ramped up over the years. Currently I have a (sort of 65% on 35% off) daily breath meditation practise (following The Mind Illuminated), not yet with enough momentum and vigour to really take off.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self? 9

[Locustafiera]

Hi Tangerine, I read your request with interest and would like to assist if I can. Let me know if you are willing and ready to start.

Best
Raffy

[Tangerine]

Hi Locustafiera, nice to meet you :)

I am willing and ready to start!

I should clarify: I am studying very intensely every day for my exams so I will only be able to reply and probably even do the exercises in the evenings and if/when I have a free day. I hope that's okay.

Also, before we even kick off, I noticed some things coming up, besides the initial clarity from looking I did in my own time: thoughts about the possibility that I will be left totally indifferent, dispassionate, undriven, distant/disconnected (like a mere witness), and maybe even scared or depressed from what has been discovered. None of these would be desirable outcomes. There is also the possibility that this inquiry leads nowhere, or that it just wont work for me.

Anyway, just wanted to let you know. Maybe there's something there to unpick.

Looking forward to your response.

[Locustafiera]

Nice to meet you too. Would you like to be addressed as Tangerine or would you prefer me to call you by another name?

I must say first that since you are studying intensely for exams there are a few reasons why it may not be the best time to embark on this journey.

Firstly, it is usually an intense process in itself. We like to encourage posting at least once a day to maintain momentum. It sounds like this might be hard to achieve given your study schedule, or could take the focus away from revision at a crucial time.

Secondly, if successful, it can result in a significant shifting of priorities. In the short term the shift can be quite extreme and whilst generally liberating, such changes could disturb your commitment and motivation to reach the current very worthy study goals.

For these reasons I would counsel that you think carefully about whether you want to engage with this process now or wait until after your exams. If you decide to continue I would be happy to proceed with you at a slower pace than usual and see how it goes. If at any point you feel study is adversely affected we can put things on hold until after the exams.

Have a think and let me know what you decide.

[Tangerine]

Thanks for getting back to me. Tangerine is fine. Tan for brevity :)

I believe I would be able to post at least once per day and maintain momentum, but it definitely would be more focussed after exams.

I want to ask if there's any way to do this such that I continue driving towards this degree, and ask why my priorities would even have to change at all, but part of me knows the answer is obvious. Do let me know if you are bestowed from up high with a spell that would conjure both insight and certainty in continued motivation to study ;)

I do really want to know the truth. Even now, despite the intensity of exam period. It seems like no matter what, the question remains. Plus, the lack of inherent existence of a self is true in my experience, then it is true whether or not my experience is intense.

I appreciate what you are saying though. I will think about it. If I decide to postpone, then I will message back on the day my exams finish, 17th May!

[Tangerine]

Plus, the lack of inherent existence of a self is true in my experience

if*

[Locustafiera]

OK Tan, I think this can work since your exams are so close.

Regarding priorities, they don’t HAVE to change - nothing about this process dictates that, it’s just that you may find your own priorities change by themselves as insight occurs. I wouldn’t want to be the one responsible for you not turning up to exams because they seemed so trivial in your new post-gate reality paradigm!

So let’s begin. First, some rules of engagement;

Please try to post once a day at least. If you run out of time to post anything meaningful just post a ‘too busy today’ message and I will at least know you are still engaged.

Be 100% honest in your responses.

Work with only what you experience directly, try to avoid responding with other people’s theories and teachings that you have read or heard.

Avoid reading spiritual material for the remainder of this process.

Let me know if these guidelines are OK with you.

[Tangerine]

Hi, I was just about to message you saying I've decided to continue with the process, before noticing your response!

I think I would continue looking regardless, so it would be better to have guidance so I don't end up taking a wrong turn and sticking points can be reflected more efficiently. Perhaps we should go more slowly though, as you suggested. If I feel it is interfering with exams, I will bring it up and we can decide what to do from there.

Let's do it.

I am ok with these guidelines. It might be a little hard to avoid spiritual material due to the circles I run in, but I won't seek it out.

because they seemed so trivial in your new post-gate reality paradigm!

Does this happen often? This also makes me think of dark night. Is dark night akin to not fully seeing or not being guided to the right place?

[Locustafiera]

Does this happen often?

It’s just as likely that the result would be a new found confidence and freedom of expression, fresh enthusiasm within a new perspective etc etc, but since it’s unpredictable, I wanted to tread carefully.

This also makes me think of dark night...

It’s tempting to try and relate this process to a map you already know, but it is usually not helpful because expectations always get in the way. It’s best to see this process as something completely different until it is complete - you can do the comparisons to established spiritual maps at the end, when it will be easy!

So that I can get a better handle on exactly where you are, could you elaborate on some of the material you have already provided? Specifically the following;

I have had periods of breaking through frameworks that kept me from the present moment - resulting in deep peace and fulfilment (temporarily, of course) - and even overcome deep depression and substance addiction and essentially become a completely different character.

Can you say more about the breakthroughs? Maybe pick one or two big ones and describe them in detail. What insights were involved?

When you talk about overcoming substance addiction, was that an outcome of a breakthrough or did it result in a breakthrough?

I realise I’m sending this quite late in the day so don’t feel you have to rush a response out today - tomorrow will do fine.

Hope the studies are going well.

[Tangerine]

It’s tempting to try and relate this process to a map you already know, but it is usually not helpful because expectations always get in the way. It’s best to see this process as something completely different until it is complete

Fair enough.

Can you say more about the breakthroughs?...

It's hard to say because many of them have occurred with varying strengths stretched over a long period. It's also difficult to distinguish from the very gradual clarity that grows as one matures.

There have been periods of strong sense of presence, letting go, mindfulness and enthusiasm regardless of circumstance. Sometimes these came about from analysing the role of thought patterns in feeling/behaviour - recognising their transparency or falsehood. Psychadelics have always, without fail, produced strong disidentification and insight into nature of self, mind and consciousness. Sometimes it was just a flash decision to drop everything and be okay or recognition that there's no reason to not be okay.

Wrgt overcoming substance addiction (and depression), I think this tied in with a gradual (and ongoing) realisation of the arbitrariness of identity (i.e. I could be anyone, although I may not have thought of it like this at the time), as well general tiredness of myself/the cycles and feeding it.

I don't want to over (or under) play these experiences though. I know I am most certainly young and stupid. It is clear that some attachment to sense of self, lack of freedom, unhappiness, attention to thoughts, etc, always remained. I am sceptical about their true depth. Day-to-day self evolves on a slower timescale. Regardless, I'm here now.

I hope that answer was relevant to your question

[Locustafiera]

Yes, that helps, thanks. Congratulations on working out the quote function so quickly by the way!

Let’s look first at your expectations for this process which you expressed very clearly in your first post

I am looking for clarity/certainty, the end of seeking, and the beginning the next phase. To pass beyond the threshold of doubt and start the real work.

Part of me thinks what I am looking for is impossible or delusional. Part of me has hope. Maybe it wont be fireworks ... I would be lying if I said there isn’t the hope that there will be a noticable shift with joy, connection, outpouring of love, a new mode of perception, access to greater intelligence and awareness, natural wisdom, and stillness and peace.

You have expressed a pretty healthy scepticism alongside these hopes and expectations so the only question I have is this -
In the past when a breakthrough has occurred into new territory, how has actual experience compared to what might have been hoped for or expected? Think also of an actual experience of visiting a new country or city - how does the actual experience compare with the prior hopes and expectations?

Then, what does the answer to the above question imply for your expectations of this process?

[Tangerine]

Wrgt breakthroughs, its hard to say but I think I expected that *I* could reliably cause them and then I would reliably feel a certain way (vaguely defined in my mind). I sinfulness expected I would feel total freedom that would last forever. None of this ever turned out to be true, and the experience was always more than the way it was vaguely defined in my mind. I suppose though that it 'felt' like I caused some breakthroughs, and I did feel 'freeER'. *shrugs*

Similarly, my experience of going to other countries is that they turned out to be much more detailed and life-like in person than in my mind haha! And none of the actual activities I'd do there cross my mind beforehand, I''m just imagining the general vibe.

Overall I suppose that means that my expectations won't be helpful because ill be comparing my experience against a map drawn with little data, that will either only be a vague charicature of what really happens, or will be false. I'd rather just see.

[Tangerine]

sinfulness

Sometimes*

Sorry, writing this on my phone.

[Locustafiera]

the experience was always more than the way it was vaguely defined in my mind ....

.... experience of going to other countries is that they turned out to be much more detailed and life-like in person than in my mind haha! And none of the actual activities I'd do there cross my mind beforehand, I''m just imagining the general vibe.

Exactly 👍. Following the actual experience, when you look back to the prior expectation, isn’t it always obvious that expectations could never have accurately predicted the actual experience? The experience is always different and richer in ways you could not have imagined.

Likewise here - if you can see those current expectations in this same light, then they will fall in to their proper place. There’s nothing wrong with them - after all without them you wouldn’t be here right? - but the actual experience will be always be different and more rich in ways you cannot imagine.

What’s more, the experience itself will be real, whilst the expectation is mere fiction, really nothing more than a thought.

Which brings us to the next topic:

Earlier you expressed thoughts that came up about

the possibility that I will be left totally indifferent, dispassionate, undriven, distant/disconnected (like a mere witness), and maybe even scared or depressed from what has been discovered.

Let’s just take a moment to check if these concerns are still there, or have changed or gone. When you consider these concerns now, what comes up?

[Tangerine]

expectations could never have accurately predicted the actual experience

experience itself will be real, whilst the expectation is mere fiction, really nothing more than a thought

Yeah, I see that. I never thought about it like this before. Makes me wonder in how many ways I'm living in expectations.

When you consider these concerns now, what comes up?

I really don't know what will happen. Sure it's *possible* these things could happen, just like it's possible I could be hit by a car the next time I cross a road. I'm not gonna never cross a road, I'll just cross carefully enough. Having these outcomes could also be a growing experience. Part of me even thinks it's not going to end up that way anyway - so it's obviously pretty arbitrary what I think right now. All of these expectations about seeing no self are just vaguely defined general vibes and really *nothing* akin to an experience. It's doubtful they'd be useful to confirm whether I have arrived or not.

On the other hand, if the experience is richer than the expectation, then it could be far more depreciating than previously imagined.

they will fall in to their proper place

That is where I feel I am now, having gone through this conversation. I'm willing to see how experience differs from expectation.

P.S. I have a few exams next week and am doing long study sessions every day without days off so I may have less focus until next weekend. It's chill though, I'll continue engaging with this.

P.P.S. Let me know when I'm waffling too much :)