Not "Getting It"

[StaffordJR]

"""""Also, I've also been trying to think through how the lack of self kind of teachings could be introduced more widely to other Christians and what would happen if I tried.""""

Hi Bayou,
I'm Glad You Enjoyed the reading I sent You !!! I totally realize this seems like a teaching & that We're Planning & Doing but it's Totally a Free Fall No One There. It Just Really feels like That We're Planning & Doing !?! In other words whatever & Really Whatever comes up That's Exactly what You're going to do. So as much as I Love the Idea for You, if Guiding Christian is what Your going too do it really doesn't mater what would happen it IS what You'll be doing or not !!! I'm Totally not trying too be harsh, it's that I want You too See Who's doing What !?!




""""I'm continuing to just monitor the sense of doership while still keeping in mind what you said about dropping expectations around this - that it's okay if I'm not "remembering" to constantly think "there's no one doing this, I'm not moving my arm, etc." One can be through the gate while not constantly being in recognition of there not being a self, right?""""

Oh Yes & it varies depending on the individual circumstances & experiences ?!? Some get angry because of all the studies & teaching they've been through. They expected some out of the ordinary enlightenment an extraordinary experience a better life & so on !!! Its Really Really just a Simple Seeing No Ones Home Doing anything !!!
I've have something more for you too read & Great Job on monitoring the senses. That was a Big one for me if I'm not in charge of my senses then What am I Really Doing & Still Wow can't Believe What's Happening It's just Happening. So Yeah Wow & Don't Worry This Won't Leave You alone & There's Nothing Too Remember & Nothing Too forget So You can't get This One wrong Lol
I Hope You & Your Family are Having Fun, talk with You soon !!! Thank You & i Appreciate Being Here with You !!! Sending Peace Love Life & Laughter Yours Truly Stafford

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[Bayou1]

Hi Stafford!

I'm back from vacation and will be able to be a bit more timely in my responses; thanks for your patience over the past week. It was a great, fun, and relaxing time!!!

it really doesn't mater what would happen it IS what You'll be doing or not

I understand what you're saying here. Please let me know if this is it / what you were getting at: Stuff happens, but you're talking to what's "outside of" so-to-speak what's happening in that you're not talking to an individual with a body. You're talking almost "beyond" that to where that body and person appear, where thoughts about being a self pop up, and so on. What happens in that place don't matter. What matters is not identifying as a "me" anywhere in it - not the body, not that chair, not anything. Anything can happen, but none of it is because of a me.

Its Really Really just a Simple Seeing No Ones Home Doing anything !!!

That's a great way of putting it :) Calling it the "self" can be confusing. What's a "self" anyways? People can interpret that in different ways. Saying that there's no one home is a much more down-to-earth, tactile way of putting it! That makes more sense to me. You're right - there is no one home. I think that the sense that there is a controller, doer, self, "someone home" is really weakened now. There's fear and nervousness in putting that last statement out there, but it's the truth. I think that nervousness stems from, "what if I'm not 'through the gate' and here I'm signalling that I'm there?! I'm going to be sabotaging the progress made!"

This Won't Leave You alone & There's Nothing Too Remember & Nothing Too forget So You can't get This One wrong Lol

Haha - Thanks for keeping this all lighthearted. Your kindness and care for me (a complete stranger to you) are palpable, and I hope you realize how much I appreciate your help. What country do you live in, by the way?


Thanks again!
Bayou

[StaffordJR]

""""I'm back from vacation and will be able to be a bit more timely in my responses; thanks for your patience over the past week. It was a great, fun, and relaxing time!!!""""

Hi Bayou,
I Appreciate Your Enthusiasm & Your Kind Words but no Patience required Your Response has Been Perfect Thank You I'm So Glad Your Vacation was Great I Wish as Beings We could Live Life as a Vacation & have Fun Relax & Be at Ease with Everything !!!
I Looked at that for a Long Time & had a Realization ! ¿ ! If IT was That Wonderful Here ALL the Time, I Really don't Think it would be Necessary Too Look into the nature of Reality, Who Would care ¿!¿ By the way Vacation is Spelled with the word Vacate interesting Right !?! I Apologize I can get a little carried away but i Love That You & Your Family had a Great Time


""""""what you were getting at: Stuff happens, but you're talking to what's "outside of" so-to-speak what's happening in that you're not talking to an individual with a body."""""

Yes Perfect, However it's Never Outside of, Its Always Immediate no Separation Here Now No Effort & Yes Not Talking to an individual with a body ! ¡ !

"""""You're talking almost "beyond" that to where that body and person appear, where thoughts about being a self pop up, and so on. What happens in that place don't matter. What matters is not identifying as a "me" anywhere in it - not the body, not that chair, not anything. Anything can happen, but none of it is because of a me.""""""

You are Seeing this However maybe this might help !?!
This is what also stumped me is IT'S Not Beyond IT'S Not Special IT Has Absolutely Nothing To do with Weather You identify or not identify with a You I or me. Honestly IT'S a Moment to Moment Happening & Our Words are Never Defining Anything. Words Really are Deafening Our Perception. Words can't Tell The Beauty, Reality or Meaning of Any of This ?!? It's Like Looking at the Blue in the Sky and Water but Really You can't find or Explain IT ?!?


"""""" Saying that there's no one home is a much more down-to-earth, tactile way of putting it! That makes more sense to me. You're right - there is no one home. I think that the sense that there is a controller, doer, self, "someone home" is really weakened now. There's fear and nervousness in putting that last statement out there, but it's the truth. I think that nervousness stems from, "what if I'm not 'through the gate' and here I'm signalling that I'm there?! I'm going to be sabotaging the progress made!""""""

I'm So Glad That Helped & Please nobody trying to be Right or Wrong because Really Like You're Seeing Nobody Home too get anything right or wrong so Really Really You can't Sabotage anything. IT'S ALL just Images & Phenomenon Happening as someone or something ¡ ! ¡ I Totally understand the Fear & nervousness. We Have had Our Whole Life Being Someone in Control of Our Lives & Now That Belief is in Serious Question, so Let's take a Look at What Happing ¿ ? ¿ We are So used to figuring & thinking about things (Thing/Think see the Parallel again, sometimes it helps too see what words are Really saying ) anyhow we're used too Thinking instead of Naturally Seeing What IS !!! So if I asked You What Socks are You Wearing & instead of Looking You Tried Thinking about it You could mistake What You Remember Right Lol !?! Now by just Simply Looking & Seeing What's There You can't get That Wrong Lol !!! Ok so Let's Do This, is There a You Home Doing ALL This at all ???

Haha - Thanks for keeping this all lighthearted. Your kindness and care for me (a complete stranger to you) are palpable, and I hope you realize how much I appreciate your help. What country do you live in, by the way?
You are So Welcome, My Pleasure, Remember You are Me no Separation Right Lol & I Appreciate Your Kindness as Well !!! And This is a Lighthearted Thing !!! No/body too get serious, No/body too get Hurt, No/body Responsible, No/thing too Do, Nowhere too Go!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!Now/Here

Oh & I live in The US in Great North West in Oregon, Like There is really a place Called Oregon Lol anyway Thanks again my Friend Sending Peace Love Life & Laughter
Yours Truly Stafford


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[Bayou1]

Hi Stafford!

IT Has Absolutely Nothing To do with Weather You identify or not identify with a You I or me.

Yes, this makes sense. Whatever is identified with or not identified with is just happening on its own. Not being in control means that I'm also not in control of identifying or not.

Words Really are Deafening Our Perception. Words can't Tell The Beauty, Reality or Meaning of Any of This ?!? It's Like Looking at the Blue in the Sky and Water but Really You can't find or Explain IT ?!?

That's true! No amount of description can accurately describe anything and can definitely not communicate anything perfectly. If you described a painting to me with words only, my interpretation of it would be completely different from the picture in front of you, for example.

Ok so Let's Do This, is There a You Home Doing ALL This at all ???

Haha, oh man. It's hard to say this, given the nervousness I mentioned in my last message, but there isn't anyone home controlling this. That's become more and more apparent throughout the past few days for sure.


Talk to you soon! Thank you,
Bayou

[StaffordJR]

"""""Haha, oh man. It's hard to say this, given the nervousness I mentioned in my last message, but there isn't anyone home controlling this. That's become more and more apparent throughout the past few days for sure."""""

Hi Bayou,
No Problems my Friend I understand Your Nervousness & I certainly Apologize I'm Not Trying Too be a Spiritual Bully Lol !!!
My Wife has informed many Times I can Be a little intimidating when it Comes to This !!! We're in this for the long haul & so no hurry
For Your next introspection I like You to explore Your Nervousness !?! Look into this & find out Exactly What's Being Nervous, is it Your Nervousness & can You Control The Nerves & What Does it Protect or Accomplishes ?!?
Please let me Know This is Too Much & if You need anything clarified & Thanks for Your Patience & Kindness with me as Well !?!
I Hope Your Day was Great & Sending Peace Love Life & Laughter Yours Truly Stafford

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[Bayou1]

Good morning,

For Your next introspection I like You to explore Your Nervousness !?! Look into this & find out Exactly What's Being Nervous, is it Your Nervousness & can You Control The Nerves & What Does it Protect or Accomplishes ?!?

As far as what is being nervous, there is just the sensations / feeling of being excited or nervous about it - the sensations that are labeled as such, as being nervousness or excitement. Those feelings are just there but without anything that IS being affected by the sensations. Prior to all of this guidance and looking, I would have said that "I am having these nervous sensations." Yes, there are sensations, but in direct experience, there is no me there to be nervous or anything else.

I can't control those sensations, either; they just happen. I think that they just relate to the fact that it feels like I'm reaching the successful end of all of this after a good hard couple years of reading, thinking, etc.

My Wife has informed many Times I can Be a little intimidating when it Comes to This !!

Have you guided your wife through all of this as well? I don't think that you're being intimidating, so feel free to push hard :)

Thanks again!
Bayou

[StaffordJR]

"""""I'm reaching the successful end of all of this after a good hard couple years of reading, thinking, etc."""""

Oh Yes Yes I've Felt That since the Beginning & even when I read over Your Threads
¡ ! ¡ There has Been a Seeing of This.
Everything We've been Indoctrinated By Our Parents, Culture, Society, Social Status, Religion, Extra ! ¿ ! When That whole Personality structure gets Threatened in anyway fight or flight sets in an a Automatic That's not Right We can't stand for That Happening ¿ ! ¿
And Yes I Really Feel You're Through the Gate & Would Love Too have my Mentor go through last part of this part of the Journey & introduce to the Facebook Support Group they have, Where other Clients recently pass Through the Gate & share their experiences !!! That's entirely up too You, I can Guide You Until Whenever You're Like When You say Wow Ok Nobody Home & No Worries Lol
Your Call my Friend

""""" Have you guided your wife through all of this as well? I don't think that you're being intimidating, so feel free to push hard """""

I Appreciate Your Kindness & my Wife & i were so Graced Too meet & Study with a Guru in 2004, Richard Gaibeck, not Sure how He Spelled His Last name ???
My Wife Nick named Him Papa Rick !!! At The Time I was at my Worst ¡¡¡
Studying & Running away for This at the same Time ¿!¿ So She Actually Be came my Best Mirror & Teacher & Now She's Like Why do I even bother with this it's Nothing & No one home !!! And nobody is going Too Hear me the way I Think They are A Total Argument Breaker if One understands The Reality of That Lol It's Been 19 Years & Both of US Know We have No Idea What We're Doing just Sharing Our Ups and downs Loving Life Thanks again for asking & Please Let me Know if You have any Fears & or Clarifying on Seeing This !?! Have a Great One & Sending Peace Love Life & Laughter Yours Truly Stafford

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[Bayou1]

Good Morning,

Thanks again for everything! Sure, talking through anything in the end with your mentor would be fine, and I'd love to be a part of that Facebook group as well for further solidification of all of this for me.

I think that I see that there isn't anyone home; I have no idea how this body does what it does, how thoughts are "written," or how decisions are made. As we already talked through, this isn't something that is constantly in my mind ("there's no one here!" and so on), but that thought or lack of it still just happens on its own - thanks for helping to clear that up for me.

It would be great to keep in touch with you, if you would be willing to. Perhaps via email? I can send you a private message with mine.

Talk to you soon!
Bayou

[StaffordJR]

Hi Bayou my Friend,
You're So Very Welcome & Thanks Love Too keep in Touch !!! I sent You a Short PM I Hope That was ok ¿!¿
So You are my First client Here on LU & It's Been my Pleasure Too be a part of This Wonderful Journey, You've Taught me a Lot about Being a Guide, Thank You So Much !!! And if You need any more guiding or clarity before this please let me know k !?!
So Back on Track Before Turning You over Too The Person Who finalizes This
We have a Few Questions right below for You & Remember Just Answer Honestly What You See not Think OK Talk Soon & Sending Peace Love Life & Laughter Yours Truly Stafford

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[Bayou1]

Hello again!

I'll check the PM next, but thanks for sending. I'll definitely keep in touch on issues that may pop up or questions that might arise. Hopefully I was an easy first guiding experience for you! Here are my answers to the questions that you sent:

Question 1 - "Is there a separate entity 'self', ..."
No, a self or "somebody home," as we recently started calling it, is just a thought. More specifically, it's the content of thought that we are the controllers of a body in this place. There are sensations and there are thoughts. All of these happen on their own, however, so where is the controller? That director is only within the content of the thoughts. Because we don't "write" or create the thoughts, we aren't even directing the thoughts that claim that we are the director. This lack of being the doer has always been the case, but I never recognized it before this guiding.

Question 2 - "Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self..."
I touched on this one in my answer to Question 1 above, but it's simply believing the thoughts that say that I'm "someone home" making decisions, having thoughts, and moving around this body. It starts probably just because that's how the vast majority of humanity views itself, as being directors of individual bodies. That's how we're raised by parents as well, and there are very few messages to contrary telling us that we're not in control.

Question 3 - "How does it feel to see this? ..."
It's shocking and exciting at the same time. "Noticing" or thinking about the lack of doership comes and goes on its own, but when it's being meditated on, it's really freaky that there's no control over the body, thoughts, or decisions. It's 180 degrees different from how almost all people see the world. There is a sense of relaxation that can arise since this has been seen and accepted, but I think that this will be a gradual and deepening realization and process. For me, it hasn't been a one pop, and I'm all through the gate.

Question 4 - "What was the last bit that pushed you over;..."
Hmmm. This is a hard one. I've been on this road for a while. It seems like the things that really stumped me and got me to more deeply look were: lack of control over the body, decisions, and thoughts; that our primary experience is not of being a body but of being aware of not just the body but the world as well - awareness is primary; and that outside of thought content, there is nothing separate from experience to be found. Another thing that kind of had me stuck for a while was waiting for a sign of something being different, which would indicate that I'm through that gate. Stafford helped me realize that I needed to drop all expectations on this as well.

Question 5 - "Describe decision, intention, free will, ..."
Decisions happen on their own. Thoughts try to claim them, but usually, decisions are made without any thought. Sometimes, thoughts happen after decisions are made and are actually opposite of the decision that really happened. Intention would just be thoughts about wanting or intending to do something; we don't control those, either. Free will, choice, and control are all in this same boat, in that something may be controlling this body, but I'm not the one pushing the buttons and pulling the levers on it.

I'm not sure what makes things happen and don't want to veer away from direct experience and speculate. I was thinking over the last couple days about one of the things that initially got me started on wondering about what really is going on in the world - a vine growing around a fence next to my driveway. This vine wraps itself around the slats of the fence; it somehow knows how to do that and senses where the fence is. Yes, I understand DNA, but DNA isn't driving individual actions of the vine. Just as newly born humans and animals miraculously know how do to a lot of stuff immediately - without being taught and without the capability of having language-based thoughts. A baby guppy is born and immediately is swimming and knows to avoid the bigger fish (including its own mother). What's doing that?

Getting back to the driveway vine story above that really made me think a while back now, a thought hit me a day or two ago, that perhaps when Jesus said in John, "Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me. I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing." Perhaps it's God living as an infinite "vine," and I and everything is is a "branch" of Him, being lived and moved by God. All of this, of course, is outside of direct experience, but I thought that I'd share where my head has been at the past couple of days.

Question 6 - "Anything to add?"
Non-duality and the related philosophies seem to really over-complicate this and then build up the expectations that some miraculous experience is supposed to happen when you really understand this, this "enlightenment" idea that they sell in those books, websites, and videos. Going down that path before coming to Liberation Unleashed probably tangled me up for longer than if I had forgone all that reading ahead of time. However, I wasn't the one choosing to read those books...or the one reading, either. How the words on the pages are understood and translated to an inaudible voice is unbelievably complex and not something that I'm pushing all the buttons to make happen. There are feelings of looking forward for the realization of non-doership / lack of being a controller to deepen as well.

So, I think that those are my answers! I have seen other guides recommend that when someone reaches the point I'm at now that they check out the "aftercare" in that forum and consider going right into guiding others to help clear up stuff for themselves as well. If you'd recommend one or both of those things, I'd be interested! I really appreciate all of the guiding that I've been given - from all 3 of my guides! It is so generous of them all to put in time and effort helping a complete stranger out in this way.

Thanks again!
Bayou

[StaffordJR]

"""""I think that I see that there isn't anyone home"""""
""""""I think that those are my answers!"""""
Hi Bayou my Friend,
Ok Great We just want to spend just a little more time on the difference between What IS, the Actual Experience & Thinking about what is. We just don't want this a Belief for You !?! A Belief in something is a Learned & Memory about Something, which isn't Direct Experience.
Ok Bayou Let's try something Different ??! Write about Your Thinking Experience, Then write about Your Actual Experience, read them too Yourself & Then explain the Difference if that makes sense !!!
Apologize for this Being so Late Talk more Tomorrow Sending Peace Love Life & Laughter Yours Truly Stafford

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[Bayou1]

Good Morning, Stafford!

Write about Your Thinking Experience, Then write about Your Actual Experience, read them too Yourself & Then explain the Difference if that makes sense !!!

The experience of thinking is generally chaotic. Thoughts come out of nowhere on a huge array of topics. One stream of thoughts might be on something recently witnessed, and then they can pivot to another stream on a completely unrelated topic before stewing about some slight that happened to me many years ago. They jump around and are often unceasing in their barrage of thoughts upon thoughts.

Also, they're often unrelated to what's going on. I'll be thinking about work when I'm at home. When I'm at home, I might be thinking about vacation. I'll be thinking about the weekend when I'm at work and about work during the weekend. They often are worrying about various things as well - worrying about saving money for this or that, worried about various people, worried about not knowing how certain things are to go, and so on.

We have done experiments in the guiding as well that thoughts cannot fully describe actual experience, either. Actual experience is too rich and too complicated to describe with words, and even if one took the time to try to describe in words every minute detail of a present experience, any reader of that massive tome would be interpreting it differently - making that present experience of the writer into a completely different interpreted scene.

Actual experience is richer and more vibrant. For whatever reason, however, maybe because we've been trained in this way growing up, we pay more attention to those thoughts. That's the "smarter" thing to do - pay attention to the thoughts worrying about saving for retirement 30 years from now. Actual, present experience is always moving and changing as well, often at a fast pace, a pace that's way faster than thoughts could keep up with due to them being only one stream of words at a time, whereas experience is a ton of various things going on simultaneously. Thoughts are more "two dimensional" or flat while actual experience is "3D."

Talk to you soon!
Bayou

[StaffordJR]

""""""I'll be thinking about work when I'm at home. When I'm at home, I might be thinking about vacation. I'll be thinking about the weekend when I'm at work and about work during the weekend. They often""""""

We'll Look into this ???

""""""Thoughts are more "two dimensional" or flat while actual experience is "3D."""""""

Yes Absolutely Right !!!

Hi Bayou my Friend,
Apologies my Friend just making sure You're Seeing This Not Intellectually Understanding This, it's Totally not the same & Intellectualizing Will Lead Too more Misunderstandings Questions & Suffering !!! Thanks for Your Patience !!!
So this is what I'm Trying to Point out is Who is Thinking about Work or Weekend extra ?!? Now understanding We have Use Words & sometimes can't get past I think or I do i am Extra !!! I just want You Seeing This & Knowing the Difference between Intellectualizing This & The Actual Seeing That Nobody's Home thinking !?!
Ok So I Like You Too spend time observing the thinking & See when thinking becomes a You ?!? I understand this might Seem Redundant However it does Clarify What IS & if this Doesn't make sense I'll Clarify this more for You !!! Ok my Friend will talk Soon Sending Peace Love Life & Laughter Yours Truly Stafford


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[Bayou1]

Hi Stafford,

Apologies my Friend just making sure You're Seeing This Not Intellectually Understanding This, it's Totally not the same & Intellectualizing Will Lead Too more Misunderstandings Questions & Suffering !!!

It sounds like a perfect plan. Thank you for helping me be sure on this and the other points.

So this is what I'm Trying to Point out is Who is Thinking about Work or Weekend extra ?!? Now understanding We have Use Words & sometimes can't get past I think or I do i am Extra !!!

You're right - the thinking about all of these and all other topics just happens on its own, with thoughts just occurring.

Ok So I Like You Too spend time observing the thinking & See when thinking becomes a You ?!?

When I am watching thoughts and looking for a "thinker" of them, it is clear that they are happening on their own. In the regular parts of the day, I may not be examining thoughts in this way when in really stressful work situations, dealing with kids at home, etc., but it's evident when I'm watching that I'm not a part of thought creation. It seems that thoughts became a "me" when we pay a lot of attention to them. It seems that this attention almost feeds them to continue even stronger in that stream and gets us more "invested" in those thoughts. In those times of paying significant attention to thoughts, it may not be evident that the thoughts are happening on their own, but they still are. Is this normal, or is there still seeing to be done on my part so that even in the midst of stressful situations and others, attention really isn't paid to thoughts?

Thank you!
Bayou

[StaffordJR]

""""""When I am watching thoughts and looking for a "thinker" of them, it is clear that they are happening on their own.""""""


"""""It seems that thoughts became a "me" when we pay a lot of attention to them. It seems that this attention almost feeds them to continue even stronger in that stream and gets us""""""


"""""Is this normal, or is there still seeing to be done on my part so that even in the midst of stressful situations and others, attention really isn't paid to thoughts?"""""


"""""""Jesus said in John, "Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me. I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing." Perhaps it's God living as an infinite "vine," and I and everything is is a "branch" of Him, being lived and moved by God. All of this, of course, is outside of direct experience, but I thought that I'd share where my head has been at the past couple of days.""""""

Hi Bayou my Friend,
Apologizes for Late Reply, I've been Thinking about You All Day !!! And by saying I've Been Thinking, Please Know it's not a me Thinking & Yes That's Normal & No such thing as Normal ?!? I Loved How You Related The Bible Verse & If You Look at the Word Bless its made from Be Less, However None of These Knowledgeable Things is IT !!!
This can't Be Known by words However can Be Pointed Too & Seen That Nobody's Home !!! So Really I'm Trying Too get You Too Drop what You Know & Really Really See for Yourself What You are ???
For myself I have No clue What I am or How This Whole Life Thing Works, But there's one Thing That doesn't need Questioned There is Nobody Home Controlling This !!! Totally feel as Though I'm writing thinking & Doing Extra, Seeing That its not True, Allows a Freedom Too Be as Whatever comes up Especially Cruz IT can't Be Explained, it's just not as Sticky !!!
So it was Shown Too me Earlier Today By People just asking, What Have You Become, How are You & What are You Doing & I can't Believe That !?!
If There was Someone Home Why Would We have too ask So Many Questions & How is it we can't Believe Anything, I'm Mean Really What Do We Really Believe ?!? Plus We Talk About Stuff & its Like This or Like That Never Ever The Thing Itself !!!
OK if There's Nothing I can Talk about Really !?! Then there Nothing or Nobody That can Explain anything Too a You or me !!! What can Be Found or Do Then for Whom ?!? Meditate on this for a Bit & Let me Know What come up if Anything Lol
Sending Peace Love Life & Laughter Yours Truly Stafford

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