Please, help me see this once for all

[Verananda]

Hi Nelson

fine!

I imagined that seeing no-self would scare me to death, but it is so normal.

:-)
another lesson about the truth of thought ;-)

Should I be seeing that everything is just one thing? Or that I'm one with everything? This is not what is happening.

no. but you can investigate if there are any solid borders, any seperation between "you and the world".
YOu can investigate this in the same way as you did with the "I" in actual experience.
What do you find?

Indeed, those thoughts can't fool me no more, but I've noticed that from time to time I have to look for this "I" just to be sure. This also helps me to get some distance of thoughts. Is this ok?

Yes, exactly. That is important. So old beliefs will drop step by step and the new perspective gets stabilized.

I've also noticed that mind is still trying to grasp the implications of it, but it generally just goes blank. There are thoughts saying that can't be just it. Other saying that I have more work to do. Other saying that I'm deceiving myself. Some worries about finishing this conversation without being ready. But, well, thoughts say anything...

Yes ;-)
Just watch this show and keep looking.

There is a sense that this can be deepened, but also a sense of okayness to what is.

Yes both is true. deepening happens by its own step by step.

I confess that there is also some disappointment and doubt, all these books and teachers have created so many expectations.

Now the expectations can be seen as what they are. :-)

Are there any sticking points you'd like to explore?

We have the 6 final questions, so when you feel ready I can give it to you and we will see if all aspects are clear or need more claryfication?

Love Ve

[nothingness]

Hi Verananda,

Thank you so much for all the help that you are giving to me.

no. but you can investigate if there are any solid borders, any seperation between "you and the world".
YOu can investigate this in the same way as you did with the "I" in actual experience.
What do you find?

I'm still exploring this, especially through which sense individually, but until now I couldn't find any solid border, any separation between "me and the world". First of all, because this "me" just happens in thoughts, and second because I can't find any separation between "whatever" and colors, sensations, sounds, smells, tastes or thoughts.

Are there any sticking points you'd like to explore?

Realizing that "I" is just another thought in the stream of thoughts, and that a "thinker", a "controller", or a "knower" only happens in thoughts, didn't trigger the fear that I was expecting. But exploring this, and the fact that I can't find any solid borders in experience, still makes my heart beats fast, especially during meditation. It also seems that mind was kind of trying to not go there, but during meditation I can explore this better. The fact that this "fear" is still happening is ok?

We have the 6 final questions, so when you feel ready I can give it to you and we will see if all aspects are clear or need more claryfication?

We can explore these questions, if it is also ok for you.

Best,
Nelson

[Verananda]

lets explore the fear and then we go to the 6 finals ....

The fact that this "fear" is still happening is ok?

yes that happens in some cases.
its good to explore it and if possible do nothing with it, just let it be as it is.
are you afraid of something or is it more a nameless feeling of fear?

here is an investigation to explore it:
If "fear" is a better term for you, replace "anxiety" with "fear":

So let’s look at the idea of fear/anxiety that seems to appear with the thoughts about a future.

So bring to mind the thoughts about the future that seem to bring with them the feelings of ‘anxiety’. Then close your eyes and do the following:

1) Look at the label/thought ‘anxiety’ itself. See the label/word ‘anxiety’ as a typewritten word in the ‘mind’s eye’ across the forehead

Does the label ‘anxiety’ know anything about anxiety, or is the word just a bunch of letters?
Is the label ‘anxiety’ itself anxious?
Can you find anyone/anything in the word itself that is anxious?

2) Then look at the sensation and ignore everything else but the sensation itself.
Inquire into the sensation and ask if the sensation itself knows anything about ‘anxiety’.

Look and see if the sensation itself is the anxious self. If the words ‘yes’ , or ‘yes, this is the self’ appears, go back to Step 1 and see the words across the forehead and repeat step 1.

Does the sensation itself suggest in any way that it is 'anxiety' or that it is anxious?
Can you find anyone or anything within or behind the sensation that is 'anxious'?

If other random mental images appear during the noticing of the sensation, check to see if those images are the self who is anxious, or are they images that are simply arising and subsiding? If other ‘loud’ thoughts appear, check to see if they are the self that is anxious as you did in step 1.

3) Look at the mental image/outline labelled body.

Does the image/outline itself know anything about ‘anxiety’?
Can you find anyone/anything in the image/colour itself that knows anything about ‘anxiety’ or that can be ‘anxious’.

If other random mental images appear during the noticing of the sensation, check to see if those images are the self who is anxious, or are they images that are simply arising and subsiding? If other ‘loud’ thoughts appear, check to see if they are the self that is anxious, as you did in step 1.

4) With eyes still closed look everywhere (look where thought says your feet are, to the left and right, up above…look everywhere) and see if you can find anyone or anything that is anxious.

Did you find anyone or anything that is anxious?

When you have done this and if no one/no thing is found, then just sit with the sensation. Just breathe normally, notice the thoughts and images that appear and let them pass on by unless they seem to hang around, then do the appropriate steps above. Allow the sensation all the room it needs in the body without pushing it aside or judging it. If it becomes too intense just take a couple of deep breaths into the sensation itself, and then notice the floor under your feet, notice your backside on the chair and then notice what is in the room you are sitting in and name them out loud, while being aware of the sensation and remember to breathe normally. If the sensation does not dissipate at all or only dissipates a little, that is okay, just notice it, without doing anything with it and just go about your day.

We are not trying to get rid of the sensation labelled ‘anxiety’ or the arising thoughts or images. We are only LOOKING to see what is actually appearing (ie thought, sensation, colour/image) as opposed to what thought is saying ABOUT what actually IS.

Let me know how you go.

The label ‘anxiety’is the AE (actual experience) of thought and not the AE of anxiety
The sensation labelled ‘anxiety’ is the AE of sensation and not the AE of anxiety
The colour labelled ‘me/I/body’ is the AE of colour and not the AE of anxiety
The thoughts ABOUT anxiety are AE of thought and not AE of anxiety

So, is there actual experience of ‘anxiety’ or what is actually appearing (AE) is label + sensation + colour + thoughts ABOUT anxiety?
Label ‘anxiety’ is known and thoughts about ‘anxiety’ are known, however, is ‘anxiety’ actually known?


love Ve

[nothingness]

Hi Verananda,

are you afraid of something or is it more a nameless feeling of fear?

Until now I couldn't identify the origin of this "fear". It is rare, but usually arises when some mechanics of the illusion is seen clearer. For example, when the thinker is seen again and again for what it is, a thought. Or that the existence of something perceiving the thoughts is itself a thought.

I've noticed that especially when there is a bad mood, there are more doubts about these clear seeing. I really don't know if there was any shift, or if it is just understanding of the mechanics combined with verification of it in direct experience (or maybe clear seeing is just it..).

I will practice the exercise for some more days and then answer your post completely.

Thank you.

Best,
Nelson

[Verananda]

Hi Nelson,

fine!

There are two ways to go with it:
Doing the exercise and you will see clearer about this fear.
and
Dont want to "get rid of it" or something like that. Do nothing with it, welcome it. It just wants to be seen and is part of this process! What happens if you just be with it? Often it comes in waves ... coming and going ... is it like that?

Love Ve

[nothingness]

Hi Verananda,

I'm still investigating this and dealing with this "fear", but some insights have been occurring. It is funny how you can read these things many times, but it doesn't make sense until you see for yourself.

Last days were kind of intense. A lot of thoughts about an "I" confused, depressed, angry, sick of it all... But then I was so tired of it that I had to let go, and just trust that things would unfold as they have to. So, finally, there was some peace, and things became clearer.

Whatever duality that seems to occur is a product of thought. Whatever that can't be seen directly in experience is created by thought. Thoughts is indeed part of the direct experience, but being unable to see them as just thoughts, and taking its content as true, is what causes the illusion to happen.

One of these thoughts were more persistent than others, the almost ever-present "seer". I noticed that I was conscious of this thought most of the time, or at least since the shift that happened in the Finders Course, but until now, although a little skeptic about it, I wasn't able to see it as just a thought.

I also noticed that I was afraid of "losing" all of the previous insights, because they were a mix of logic and direct experience, but this one is undeniable.

It seems that peace comes from realizing that whatever duality that seems to occur is a product of imagination, and also to realize that there is nothing that you can do, because there is no "doer". Trying to impose your will, going against the flow, seems to be useless, first, because there is no one to impose its will, and second because these kind of thought only provokes anxiety. Trusting life is peace...

Still, there is some fear and I'm trying to deal with them following your orientations, especially the "letting it be" one. It is like a knot in the stomach, that I don't know if it was always there, or is a result of this process. It is almost as if I'm holding on to something, as if accepting that this "seer" is just an illusion and that there is nothing that can be done, threatens my own life. I can see that this resistance is based on beliefs, but this feeling is still there, and, by now, I'm trying to just let it be.

Thank you so much, Verananda...

Best,
Nelson

[Verananda]

Hi Nelson

It is almost as if I'm holding on to something, as if accepting that this "seer" is just an illusion and that there is nothing that can be done, threatens my own life.

Your life? Who's life? Life itself?
If it is seen that it is and ever was an illusion, nothing changes. It never was different. No "I" that died or dissapeared.
Just an illusion that is seen through. So why threat is bigger that before?

And at the same time, whatever comes up wants to be perceived, seen, felt: The fear, the knot in the stomach, even the resistance. you're doing fine !!! :-)

Love Ve

[nothingness]

Hi Verananda,

I'm stuck...

Sometimes it is clear, and usually is in these times that fear appears. Sometimes, like now, the fog of thoughts is stronger and it is the time of frustration to appears. I was asking myself "what in experience can be frustrated?". Colors, sensations, sounds, smells, tastes, and thoughts can't be frustrated. I was also asking myself "who is wanting to shift?". None of these perceptions wants nothing, and none of them can shift.

I also can see how the experience of thoughts shape experience, mainly by labeling what is being perceived, and how these thoughts arise distorting the experience. I can see the thought about an "I" entity that is always arising in the experience, and how there is nothing in experience that relates to this "I" - just a lot of thoughts trying to forge this relationship.

Well, I've been having a lot of insights, but I'm waiting for something, for a shift of some kind...

Your life? Who's life? Life itself?

Yes, I see the point. An idea doesn't have a life, I just don't feel it.

Just an illusion that is seen through. So why threat is bigger that before?

Good point. I will investigate this further.

Best,
Nelson

[Verananda]

Hi Nelson

I was asking myself "what in experience can be frustrated?". Colors, sensations, sounds, smells, tastes, and thoughts can't be frustrated. I was also asking myself "who is wanting to shift?". None of these perceptions wants nothing, and none of them can shift.

You can ask: what is "beeing frustated" in direct experience ?

Both is true at the same time. There is the truth you saw in this investigation.
-> "Colors, sensations, sounds, smells, tastes, and thoughts can't be frustrated."
And at the same time we are living this illusion with all its feelings, joy, frustation, adverntures, challenges, with future and past, friends, work, family ..... just go with the flow, be curious what changes and what stays same. Relax with it. Life wants to be lived.

Beeing conscious about all this patterns is the key. We dont have to change anything. Change happens or not. It is normal that there pops up old stuff after this investigation. Now it can be seen from a fresh perspective. It is not so important what we do. It is more important to be conscious about this whole game playing itself ....

Well, I've been having a lot of insights, but I'm waiting for something, for a shift of some kind...

There is a new perspective isn't it?
What are you waiting for? What kind of shift do you expect?
Is it about a state? frustation vanishes and ever lasting bliss emerges?
Take some time to be clear about this expectation!

Love Ve

[nothingness]

Hi Verananda,

There is a new perspective isn't it?

Still there is a sense of self, but, at the same time, there is a growing awareness over the nature of reality, especially the nature of thoughts. There is also a growing "easiness" in going through life. Maybe this is it, I don't know.

What are you waiting for? What kind of shift do you expect?
Is it about a state? frustation vanishes and ever lasting bliss emerges?

I confess that I wanted to, at least, see with absolute certainty that there is no "I" to blame. That I'm not this body. That everything is just one thing. And finally being able to rest and just flow with life. Of course, that are more "mystical" expectations, like seeing beauty in everything, and realizing God. But seeing the first ones would be enough :)

It is becoming increasingly clear that the only things that exist are colors, sensations, sounds, tastes, smells and thoughts, and that none of them knows nothing about "sadness", "depression", "happiness", etc. That these are all concepts. It is also becoming increasingly clear that thoughts are not true, or false, and neither good, or bad. That they are just thoughts. Like a sound is a sound. But I don't know if a could say with absolute certainty that there is no "I", that I'm not this body.

I kind of can conclude that when I look for this "I" in the experience, and notice that all there are is perceptions, and that thoughts are thoughts not "I". But it is like a "conclusion".

To be honest, I imagined that I would lose completely the identification with the body, and just "see" life going by itself. That I would see this body doing its things in the same way that I see other people doing its things. Everything in automatic, and no sense of control (my experience is almost like that, but still there is some sense of control).

Despite all these expectations, things are certainly changing, especially this growing "easiness" in going through life, and this growing clarity about the nature of thoughts. It is funny, there is an almost non-stop and effortless investigation during these last days, with a lot of insights pop-up all of the time.

One last thing that may be worth to tell you is what happened yesterday night. I was meditating and looking for this "I", after these last insights about the nature of thoughts. Suddenly, from nowhere, came an intense fear, like I've never felt before in this investigation. It seemed that the heart would explode, and then attention went from the "looking" to the heart, and in the same way that the fear arose, it is gone. But it felt like I was about to realize it, and just lost (another silly expectation?).

This "losing attention because of fear" is a pattern that I've been noticing in this investigation. The only difference is that I had never felt such intense fear before.

Sorry for the long post.

Thank you so much for your help, Verananda.

Best,
Nelson

[Verananda]

Hi Nelson,

Still there is a sense of self, but, at the same time, there is a growing awareness over the nature of reality, especially the nature of thoughts. There is also a growing "easiness" in going through life. Maybe this is it, I don't know.

Yes thats it. It is a seeing here and now. and at the same time it is a process of further looking and integrating ....

I confess that I wanted to, at least, see with absolute certainty that there is no "I" to blame. That I'm not this body. That everything is just one thing.

You can look here and now ....
Can you find an I/me/self?
In the body or anywhere else?
Any borders?

Then see what future and past are.
Anything more than thought?
Look in direct experience!
So an "I" that would be in past or future can it be anything else than a thought here and now?

But I don't know if a could say with absolute certainty that there is no "I", that I'm not this body.

... so where, when what could it be this I?

I kind of can conclude that when I look for this "I" in the experience, and notice that all there are is perceptions, and that thoughts are thoughts not "I". But it is like a "conclusion".

realy a conclusion? you look and see: no I found. Where is the conclusion?

And finally being able to rest and just flow with life.

Are YOU (who? what?) seperate from life and its flow?

To be honest, I imagined that I would lose completely the identification with the body,

This implies an I that could lose identification. Is this a thought or real seen?
Waht you can see (and look for again and again) is what this "I" and "Identification" is made of. How it works.
It is an Illusion. The supposed object of this Illusion can not be fall away or disappear. It newver exist. This can be seen.

That I would see this body doing its things in the same way that I see other people doing its things.

We did this palm flipping exercise? look back to page 4.
It is good to remeber again and again ....

Everything in automatic, and no sense of control (my experience is almost like that, but still there is some sense of control).

Look for that what could have control. what do you find?

The whole game here is like this: When old beliefes about I, body, separation, control pop up .... dont discuss it, LOOK!

It seemed that the heart would explode, and then attention went from the "looking" to the heart, and in the same way that the fear arose, it is gone. But it felt like I was about to realize it, and just lost (another silly expectation?).

thats good! let all this happen!
but what was realized / lost???

This "losing attention because of fear" is a pattern that I've been noticing in this investigation. The only difference is that I had never felt such intense fear before.

how could attention be lost? attention is at fear. fear can be investigated, welcome, felt. what is lost?

Its a long rely too .... take your time for it ... I'm not so often online next days so my next reply can take some days ...

Love Ve

[nothingness]

Hi Verananda,

I'm still investigating. I'm starting to see how this "I" just appears when there is thinking about the past or the future. In the past, for example, when something just heard is being analyzed. In the future, for example, when future scenarios are being analyzed. And, of course, this thought can't be an I.

I'm also starting to see how these boundaries seem to be contained within this watching, like everything else, and not the other way around.

The fear comes and goes, from nowhere, and there are involuntary movements in the body.

I'll reply to your post in the next week. Thank you.

Best,
Nelson

[Verananda]

Hi Nelson

I'm also starting to see how these boundaries seem to be contained within this watching, like everything else, and not the other way around.

please explain a bit what do you exactly mean with this / what is experienced/seen?
what are these "boundaries"?

The fear comes and goes, from nowhere, and there are involuntary movements in the body.

thats all fine. the body does this involuntary movements when the system releases energy. just let it happen!
don't force, don't stop. Let it all happen.

Love Ve

[nothingness]

Hi Verananda,

Can you find an I/me/self?
In the body or anywhere else?

No, just sounds, images, sensations, smells, tastes and thoughts. No "I" in the middle of it.

Any borders?
please explain a bit what do you exactly mean with this / what is experienced/seen?
what are these "boundaries"?

There are thoughts about borders, but "borders" doesn't make sense in sounds, images, sensations, smells, tastes and thoughts. Can't find a place where "I" ends and "other things" start.

... so where, when what could it be this I?

A thought.

realy a conclusion? you look and see: no I found. Where is the conclusion?

A thought says it is a conclusion. But it is a fact.

Are YOU (who? what?) seperate from life and its flow?

No "I" can be found separated from everything else.

This implies an I that could lose identification. Is this a thought or real seen?

Thought.

Look for that what could have control. what do you find?

Nothing can be found choosing thoughts, actions, etc.

how could attention be lost? attention is at fear. fear can be investigated, welcome, felt. what is lost?

Thoughts say that there is something to be lost. "Loosing something" doesn't make sense in sounds, imagens, sensations, smells, tastes and thoughts. It just makes sense in the "world" of thoughts, concepts.

This is tricky. There are frequent thoughts saying that "I'm tired of this seeking", "I don't believe that I'm awake, there is more that needs to be seen", etc. In general, I buy these thoughts, and feel bad about it. Other times I realize that thoughts, and any other perceptions can't be "tired" or can't "believe in anything", and I get some distance from it. When there is this realization, it is common to fear to arises, but I'm trying to just accept it. I'm kind of going in a loop here...

Thank you, Verananda.

Best,
Nelson

[Verananda]

Hi Nelson

There are thoughts about borders,

...yes that's how it is .... :-)

This is tricky. There are frequent thoughts saying that "I'm tired of this seeking", "I don't believe that I'm awake, there is more that needs to be seen", etc. In general, I buy these thoughts, and feel bad about it.

Can you find an I in this game? Or just other thoughts that say these thoughts are true ...?
Thoughts and feeling/sensation and again no I inside?

When there is this realization, it is common to fear to arises,

Is it a fear about something? Thoughts saying "I'm afraid of ...."?

What but I'm trying to just accept it.

thats fine. just relax into the fear. let the the fear do whatever it wants to do .....
It comes and it goes, right?

I'm kind of going in a loop here...

Is this more that a thought?
Maybe it is the rhythm of life? (and even this is a thought again, but maybe a bit more helpful)
It is normal, sometimes there is more kind of "living the illusion of seperateness, doing, deciding, ...." next time it is seen again for what it is, space and emtyness is present ....
After seeing through the illusion there is a (neverending?) period of integration, things change by itself, fear comes, fear goes, ...... fear dissappears .... it is nothing to do and no one there who could do .... just be present with all that happenening .....

So lets see if something else comes up to investigate .... or if you are ready for the final 6 questions just tell me ....

Love Ve